Circumstances before Jesus birth

[Rain]

What order would you put these in?

• Angel appears to Zacharias
• Gabriel appears to Mary
• Mary visits Elizabeth for 3  months
• John is born
• Angel appears to Joseph
• Mary conceives
• Elisabeth conceives
• Jesus is born

Before I would have put them in this order:

• Angel appears to Zacharias
• Elisabeth conceives
• Gabriel appears to Mary
• Mary conceives
• Angel appears to Joseph
• Mary visits Elizabeth for 3  months
• John is born
• Jesus is born

Now I'm not quite sure because as far as I can tell some of the scriptures (in the 4 gospels) don't say what I thought they said.

For example I always understood John jumping in the womb because he was near Jesus.  And that makes sense, but the scripture says "when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost."  It doesn't say John leaped because Jesus was there.  It says John jumped when he heard the greeting of Mary. So John may have been excited because he knew the time would soon come.  I don't think this is the case, but it could be that 50 years of thinking the other way is blinding me to the way it might have happened differently.  

Then I always thought that Joseph married Mary soon after she conceived, but "she was found with child" and he was ready to put her away.  So this sounds like there was some time between her conceiving and Joseph finding out.  So maybe he found out after visiting Elisabeth for 3 months?  

How do you think it went?  

 

Edited March 1, 2021 by Rain

[Stargazer]

43 minutes ago, Rain said:

Now I'm not quite sure because as far as I can tell some of the scriptures (in the 4 gospels) don't say what I thought they said.

The Gospels, while not necessarily contradicting each other, do not always tell the same story.

For all their status as scripture, I don't think they are 100% reliable in telling the story as it actually happened. There is plenty that got left out, as the Gospel of John admits:

John 21:25 "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."

If God were telling the story directly, I'm pretty sure we'd get the straight dope with no inaccuracies. Since men were involved, however, all bets are off.

That article of faith that says "as translated correctly" should be amended to read "as transmitted and translated correctly."

My answer to your question is that the events occurred in the order you gave in your second list, except that the angel appears to John just before Mary returns from her visit to Elizabeth. Being "found with child" may simply mean that Mary's father let Joseph know about it before she came back. And then he was minded to put away the engagement privately, but then the angel visited.

Edited March 1, 2021 by Stargazer

[Rain]

48 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

The Gospels, while not necessarily contradicting each other, do not always tell the same story.

For all their status as scripture, I don't think they are 100% reliable in telling the story as it actually happened. There is plenty that got left out, as the Gospel of John admits:

John 21:25 "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."

If God were telling the story directly, I'm pretty sure we'd get the straight dope with no inaccuracies. Since men were involved, however, all bets are off.

That article of faith that says "as translated correctly" should be amended to read "as transmitted and translated correctly."

Yes, this is why I worded it "How do you think it went?" 

48 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

My answer to your question is that the events occurred in the order you gave in your second list, except that the angel appears to John just before Mary returns from her visit to Elizabeth.

Why before she returns rather than after?

48 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Being "found with child" may simply mean that Mary's father let Joseph know about it before she came back. And then he was minded to put away the engagement privately, but then the angel visited.

 

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

........................How do you think it went? 

You are right to raise this question, because the Gospels are not necessarily historically chronological.  They are meant to be faith-promoting stories, but they are composed so long after the actual events that it is doubtful that anyone could find good documentation and witnesses.  The Gospels are not written as professional histories, and we should not demand that of them.  Mark was most likely composed as a stage-play.

[Stargazer]

6 hours ago, Rain said:

Yes, this is why I worded it "How do you think it went?" 

Why before she returns rather than after?

 

I see her father sending her to visit Elizabeth as a means of getting her out of the village before her condition became obvious, as well as because of Elizabeth's miracle pregnancy. Joseph and Mary were already betrothed before the angel's announcement, and I picture this separation gave Mary's father some time to figure out what to do about telling Joseph -- because obviously he knew that Joseph would know that he had nothing to do with the pregnancy, and likely as not would have told him just before Mary returned from the visit, so as to prepare him. I expect that Mary's father would have told him about the angel's announcement and about how the angel said the child was to be the Messiah. At which point Joseph would have told her father about putting the engagement away privately so as to avoid the public embarrassment. Did he believe her father about the angel? I imagine that he did, or at least he believed that Mary's father believed her about the angel.  And then Joseph had his dream between the time her father told him about it, and her actual return. She would have been fourish months along at that point, not terribly obviously pregnant, and the wedding would have occurred very shortly after her return to Nazareth. 

I have no doubt that it was not uncommon for betrothed couples to have come together before the actual wedding, and Mary and Joseph's fellow villagers would have added up 2 and 2, coming to 4, about how Mary's pregnancy had advanced peculiarly quickly after the wedding. And this might be another reason why the couple went away to Bethlehem before Jesus' birth -- to lend plausible deniability to when exactly Jesus was born, which would have been 5 months after the wedding. 

 

[longview]

12 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I see her father sending her to visit Elizabeth as a means of getting her out of the village before her condition became obvious, as well as because of Elizabeth's miracle pregnancy. Joseph and Mary were already betrothed before the angel's announcement, and I picture this separation gave Mary's father some time to figure out what to do about telling Joseph --

I think first and foremost that the Angel Gabriel met with Mary BEFORE the divine conception took place.  That visitation was for the purpose of extending a "call" for Mary to be the Mother of the Messiah.  To which she humbly and graciously accepted - - -

Luke 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

After this marvelous experience and life changing event, she most likely shared the wonder with her parents (and possibly her whole family).  I am not inclined to think they would have been embarrassed about Mary's calling but they probably were cautious about divulging the vision to outsiders.  They may have been perplexed about the role of Joseph - - - should he remain betrothed to Mary or should Mary become a single mother and raise the Son of God by herself?  They needed time to ponder and pray about the whole situation.  When they received news about their relation Elisabeth, Mary very eagerly went to visit her.

While Mary was away, the family got to the point where they could bring Joseph into the discussion.  Joseph may have felt incredulous or stunned.  It may have taken him several days to wrestle with the thoughts churning through him.  At the appropriate point a revelation was given to him - - -

Matt. 1:19. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
20. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

It is interesting to note that not only was Mary a descendant of King David but Joseph was also.  I would say that Joseph was in every respect an honored father of Jesus (even if a step relation).  Truly Jesus was the Son of David whose right it was to rule and reign.

Edited March 1, 2021 by longview

[Stargazer]

3 hours ago, longview said:

I think that first and foremost that the Angel Gabriel met with Mary BEFORE the divine conception took place.  That visitation was for the purpose of extending a "call" for Mary to be the Mother of the Messiah.  To which she humbly and graciously accepted - - -

Luke 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

After this marvelous experience and life changing event, she most likely shared the wonder with her parents (and possibly her whole family).  I am not inclined to think they would have been embarrassed about Mary's calling but they probably were cautious about divulging the vision to outsiders.  They may have been perplexed about the role of Joseph - - - should he remain betrothed to Mary or should Mary become a single mother and raise the Son of God by herself?  They needed time to ponder and pray about the whole situation.  When they received news about their relation Elisabeth, Mary very eagerly went to visit her.

While Mary was away, the family got to the point where they could bring Joseph into the discussion.  Joseph may have felt incredulous or stunned.  It may have taken him several days to wrestled with the thoughts churning through him.  At the appropriate point a revelation was given to him - - -

Matt. 1:19. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
20. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

It is interesting to note that not only was Mary a descendant of King David but Joseph was also.  I would say that Joseph was in every respect an honored father of Jesus (even if a step relation).  Truly Jesus was the Son of David whose right it was to rule and reign.

That is how I envision it, too.

Orson Scott Card wrote the script for Living Scriptures' audiotape Dramatized New Testament, and he wrote the story in this way, as well.