Agency and the Fall

[RevTestament]

On 4/27/2020 at 7:06 PM, mfbukowski said:

Yep- I agree that that works well too, and is a good explanation of how belief in A&E can be compatible with that horrible word "evolution".

And if you really want to get philosophical, you could say that there was "no death before the fall" because they/we did not have to ability to communicate the idea to others and could not actually ponder the effects/affects of "death".  They could not relate someone else's death to the death of one of their loved ones, much as certain animals cannot understand that their reflection is THEM and not another animal.

So in that context, dinosaurs did not "die" because "death" as we understand it, did not even exist.   An afterlife could not be comprehended or discussed!  Do gorillas pray?  Do they understand "thou shalt surely die"?  

I don't believe we have to go that far. God told Adam that if he ate of the fruit, he must surely die, but then Adam doesn't die. The BoM is clear that the fall brought about spiritual death. That is the death the archetype is speaking of. To say there was no death, because that was not an understood concept, I think assumes too much of the story - it uses language understood at the time. 

[mfbukowski]

10 hours ago, RevTestament said:

To say there was no death, because that was not an understood concept, I think assumes too much of the story - it uses language understood at the time. 

I was referring to the idea that there was "no death before the fall" and reasoning how that could be a justified statement even considering the panoply of life for which we have evidence "before the fall", taking it in an historical context rather than a figurative one.   We DO like our his-story hereabouts. 

Do you think that "no death before the fall" refers to spiritual death, or do you take it literally then?

Think about undiscovered species of animals.  In what sense does something which we have never seen nor experienced nor even thought possible "exist" to us?

It is a bit like thinking that Columbus "discovered" America because to those across the Atlantic such a place did not even "exist". 

How does an unknown species "exist" when we cannot describe it, we don't know if we are discussing an animal vegetable or mineral, its color, its shape, etc etc.

But in this example, we have already limited the discussion to species of animals.  But does something for which we have no category or cannot conceive conceptually "exist"?

My only point is that all of this can be seen as a semantic confusion that is more about words and how we think than anything else.  Is someone who is "brain dead", dead?  At what point is an embryo a human being?

For every word/concept there is a grey area in which it is debatable that the word applies.   That leaves it, at least to me, wide open as to what "no death before the fall" means.

Perhaps we can think of say, dinosaurs as "carbon on the hoof" and in a sense they are still "existing" in the gas tanks of our cars.   Immortal dinosaurs?  

There are those who believe that the only sense in which we have an after life is by being remembered for our accomplishments.  The idea is kind of along those lines.

I know that is "out there" but the point is that when it comes to language, there are profoundly huge grey areas in which words can mean virtually anything we want them to.

 

 

Edited April 30, 2020 by mfbukowski

[CV75]

It seems reasonable to me that life is created in different ways in the various estates and kingdoms, and that each point of transition between them can be considered simultaneously a birth and death as one dies in one estate while being born into another.

Paradisaical life was created under one set of laws; post-Fall telestial life was created another way. There was no telestial death until paradise died and telestial life was born. The universe, this world and the life in it theoretically came about practically as scientists have come to describe, and have yet to refine, it. Of course, we know less about how paradisaical life was created since that was a different estate altogether.

[RevTestament]

8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I was referring to the idea that there was "no death before the fall" and reasoning how that could be a justified statement even considering the panoply of life for which we have evidence "before the fall", taking it in an historical context rather than a figurative one.   We DO like our his-story hereabouts. 

Do you think that "no death before the fall" refers to spiritual death, or do you take it literally then?

Think about undiscovered species of animals.  In what sense does something which we have never seen nor experienced nor even thought possible "exist" to us?

It is a bit like thinking that Columbus "discovered" America because to those across the Atlantic such a place did not even "exist". 

How does an unknown species "exist" when we cannot describe it, we don't know if we are discussing an animal vegetable or mineral, its color, its shape, etc etc.

I understand what you are saying.  I just think there are limits of interpretation that aren't very credible to go beyond. I tend to interpret the scriptures somewhat legalistically. I believe those who study the law have an edge in understanding the scriptures over others. Reading the scriptures can be likened to reading a statute. A court looks to interpret the statute within the context within it was written, and the definitions it provides. The Lord uses a lot of symbolic language. He uses things like parables. I see the story of Adam and Eve as a parable based on fact. There are other places where this is more obvious, but here it is not so immediately obvious that the story is teaching the future gospel. I see it as the gospel in a nutshell. Was that understood in the beginning? By the Jews? I don't think so. It is only through the lens of Christ, and the gospel that this becomes obvious. 

Do I believe there was physical death before Adam? Certainly. Adam was no doubt a Sumerian. According to Moses 6 Adam wrote things down. We know Sumerians had a written language 6000 years ago - one of the first, if not the first. We know that there were dinosaurs millions of years before that. We know they all died before the first Adam walked the earth - assuming one believes the fossil record. There was obviously lots of physical death before Adam - just no spiritual death. 

8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

But in this example, we have already limited the discussion to species of animals.  But does something for which we have no category or cannot conceive conceptually "exist"?

My only point is that all of this can be seen as a semantic confusion that is more about words and how we think than anything else.  Is someone who is "brain dead", dead?  At what point is an embryo a human being?

For every word/concept there is a grey area in which it is debatable that the word applies.   That leaves it, at least to me, wide open as to what "no death before the fall" means.

Perhaps we can think of say, dinosaurs as "carbon on the hoof" and in a sense they are still "existing" in the gas tanks of our cars.   Immortal dinosaurs?  

There are those who believe that the only sense in which we have an after life is by being remembered for our accomplishments.  The idea is kind of along those lines.

I know that is "out there" but the point is that when it comes to language, there are profoundly huge grey areas in which words can mean virtually anything we want them to.

I agree that there can be huge grey areas, but when it comes to scripture, I limit those for reasons stated above.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I understand what you are saying.  I just think there are limits of interpretation that aren't very credible to go beyond. I tend to interpret the scriptures somewhat legalistically. I believe those who study the law have an edge in understanding the scriptures over others. Reading the scriptures can be likened to reading a statute. A court looks to interpret the statute within the context within it was written, and the definitions it provides. The Lord uses a lot of symbolic language. He uses things like parables. I see the story of Adam and Eve as a parable based on fact. There are other places where this is more obvious, but here it is not so immediately obvious that the story is teaching the future gospel. I see it as the gospel in a nutshell. Was that understood in the beginning? By the Jews? I don't think so. It is only through the lens of Christ, and the gospel that this becomes obvious. 

Do I believe there was physical death before Adam? Certainly. Adam was no doubt a Sumerian. According to Moses 6 Adam wrote things down. We know Sumerians had a written language 6000 years ago - one of the first, if not the first. We know that there were dinosaurs millions of years before that. We know they all died before the first Adam walked the earth - assuming one believes the fossil record. There was obviously lots of physical death before Adam - just no spiritual death. 

I agree that there can be huge grey areas, but when it comes to scripture, I limit those for reasons stated above.

I have no problem with any of this, and could easily see it this way.

I just believe literally in John 1 which says that all things were created by The Word, and like my siggy below says, all we can know can only be described in words which allows us to think in catgories.

Without words there are no statutes, species, commandments, life or death  or "interpretations" to " go beyond" or not, and no way to judge if they do or do not in the scriptures or anywhere else. There are no thoughts or concepts

Edited May 1, 2020 by mfbukowski

[CV75]

9 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I understand what you are saying.  I just think there are limits of interpretation that aren't very credible to go beyond. I tend to interpret the scriptures somewhat legalistically. I believe those who study the law have an edge in understanding the scriptures over others. Reading the scriptures can be likened to reading a statute. A court looks to interpret the statute within the context within it was written, and the definitions it provides. The Lord uses a lot of symbolic language. He uses things like parables. I see the story of Adam and Eve as a parable based on fact. There are other places where this is more obvious, but here it is not so immediately obvious that the story is teaching the future gospel. I see it as the gospel in a nutshell. Was that understood in the beginning? By the Jews? I don't think so. It is only through the lens of Christ, and the gospel that this becomes obvious. 

Do I believe there was physical death before Adam? Certainly. Adam was no doubt a Sumerian. According to Moses 6 Adam wrote things down. We know Sumerians had a written language 6000 years ago - one of the first, if not the first. We know that there were dinosaurs millions of years before that. We know they all died before the first Adam walked the earth - assuming one believes the fossil record. There was obviously lots of physical death before Adam - just no spiritual death. 

I agree that there can be huge grey areas, but when it comes to scripture, I limit those for reasons stated above.

I answer this question, “Yes and no.” “Yes,” in that after his Fall, all sorts of mortal life came into being millions of years before Adam appeared upon the Earth. “No,” in that the physical laws that brought all that about did not come into play until after his Fall changed their scope of operation from the paradisaical to the "telestial" applications we currently observe.

The miracle of the mortal Adam in my opinion is that "the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" (the Word and words) was first revealed to and through him--the celestial and exalted worlds were first introduced, understood and articulated into this one (Moses 5:6).

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

I answer this question, “Yes and no.” “Yes,” in that after his Fall, all sorts of mortal life came into being millions of years before Adam appeared upon the Earth. “No,” in that the physical laws that brought all that about did not come into play until after his Fall changed their scope of operation from the paradisaical to the "telestial" applications we currently observe.

The miracle of the mortal Adam in my opinion is that "the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" (the Word and words) was first revealed to and through him--the celestial and exalted worlds were first introduced, understood and articulated into this one (Moses 5:6).

Interesting interpretation!

Don't think I have heard that one before! 

And remember Father "called" (defined) everything into existence. Look at Genesis 1 and see how many times the word "called" appears.

Couple that with John 1 where it says the Word created everything.

 

Edited May 1, 2020 by mfbukowski

[CV75]

40 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Interesting interpretation!

Don't think I have heard that one before! 

And remember Father "called" (defined) everything into existence. Look at Genesis 1 and see how many times the word "called" appears.

Couple that with John 1 where it says the Word created everything.

 

Yes, the idea being that He called them from one sphere into another, so they died in one sphere in order to be reborn into the next. Sometimes that's a fall and sometimes that's a rising. When we left the presence of God in the premortal world of spirits, we both fell and advanced. Adam did likewise when he left the presence of God in an immortal paradise to subject himself to the laws of nature and land himself at some point in this world that we know, to learn of and present to his posterity the world God wants us to know.

Edited May 1, 2020 by CV75

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, CV75 said:

Adam did likewise when he left the presence of God in an immortal paradise to subject himself to the laws of nature and land himself at some point in this world that we know, to learn of and present to his posterity the world God wants us to know.

"That is the way Father gained His knowledge (of good and evil)"

[RevTestament]

On 4/30/2020 at 11:55 PM, mfbukowski said:

I have no problem with any of this, and could easily see it this way.

I just believe literally in John 1 which says that all things were created by The Word, and like my siggy below says, all we can know can only be described in words which allows us to think in catgories.

Without words there are no statutes, species, commandments, life or death  or "interpretations" to " go beyond" or not, and no way to judge if they do or do not in the scriptures or anywhere else. There are no thoughts or concepts

I have no issue with the word creating everything. Never said I did. I am just speaking of the issues of death.