APA on Consensual Nonmonogamy spin-off thread: Mormon Polygamy

[Stargazer]

40 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Nice play on words.  😀

Thanks! I didn't see it myself until I re-read what I had wrote, just before posting it. It made me feel quite clever for a few moments! 🙂 

40 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I'm not sure I have a "beef" with such things.  My comment was that this concept, and a few others, are not intuitively "good" for me.  I have come to terms with and accepted them through study and contemplation.

Well, to tie into the OP, and I've read very carefully through this whole thing before offering my two cents (in contrast to other occasions where I've waded in willy-nilly and then regretted it), your arguments have been cogent, well thought-out, and scripturally sound.  In my view, anyway.  ALarson and JulieM, to name the two with whom you've mostly interacted, seemed primarily motivated to disagree with polygyny because it is "not intuitively 'good'" to them -- and have not been able to rise to the same level of "study and contemplation" that you have.  In short, they don't like it, so it can't be true.  It is certain that the only defense against something so well attested to in scripture, both ancient and modern, is to deny the plain meaning in scripture.

During the entire period of the Old Testament, from the moment we are introduced to polygyny in Genesis 4:23 ("And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah ...), until Malachi closes out the OT, polygyny is practiced by multiple patriarchs, mentioned as if a commonplace in many other places, regulated in the Law of Moses, and generally shows up everywhere.  And the naysayer then claims that the God who gave Moses detailed instructions as to do hundreds of little things, issued laws covering pretty much everything, couldn't so much as say one peep to forbid this one thing?  We have rules forbidding sexual relations between parent and child, between a man and his wife's sister, between humans and beasts, but somehow, out of all that, He somehow forgets to forbid polygyny?  It is beyond belief and into delusion, actually.

But if makes one comfortable, that's fine then, I guess.

I don't like polygamy, either.  I got my work cut out being a husband to one woman to the best of my ability. I'm not sure I have the capacity to do it for two. At least in mortality.  I rather expect my capacity will be larger in the resurrection.

[changed]

On 7/18/2019 at 6:03 PM, smac97 said:

I'll start!

....

The polygamy of our forefathers was based on marital relationships between a man and a woman.  The "sister wives" were not married to each other, nor were they sexually involved with each other, or with anyone else except the husband.  There was nothing like the effects likely attendant to partner swapping, swinging, and similar forms of hedonism.

Nevertheless, to the extant there is some overlap (Stem, feel free to substantiate that), such issues may be part of why polygamy was unworkable as a long-term practice.  It would have been too difficult to live "the Principle" in the 20th century and beyond.  

 

 

I just read a pioneer story, that polygamy allowed Mormon lesbians to be married to one another - so it was not necessarily based on the relashonship between the wife and husband, but instead based on the relationship between the wives.  

 

Quote:

"In honor of Pioneer Day, a state holiday recognizing the day that Brigham Young came into the Salt Lake valley, stuck his cane into the ground and said, "This is the right place." (The Mormon pioneers were originally heading to the San Francisco Bay but decided to stop short. Thank goddess!) So today, I wish to remember my favorite Queer Pioneer Ancestor (by spirit, not by blood), Sarah Louisa "Louie" Bouton of Connecticut, who at 16, was a member of the William H. Chipman Pioneer Company, arriving in the Salt Lake valley on September 15, 1866. Within two months of arriving, Louie was married at 16 to Joseph H. Felt, 26. According to her autobiography, about 1874 Louie met and fell in love with a woman in her LDS ward named Lizzie Mineer. Louie encouraged her husband to marry Lizzie as a polygamous wife, which he did in 1876. Then about 1881 Louie fell in love with another woman named Lizzie Liddell, and again Joseph obligingly married this second Lizzie, so Louie could "open her home and share her love" with Lizzie. In 1883, while on the train, she met Mary "May" Anderson of Liverpool, England, and they too fell in love. This time May moved in with Louie while Joseph and the two Lizzies moved out. Thus began one of the most intense, stable, and productive love relationships in early 20th century Mormonism. The two women lived together over 40 years in what is called in Queer Studies a "Boston marriage." (Google that!) The couple also presided over three of Mormonism's most significant institutions: as the first two General Presidents of the General Primary Association (for Mormon children), as founders and editors of the "Children's Friend" magazine, and as founders of the Primary Children's Hospital. Their autobiography reports, "Those who watched their devotion to each other declare that there never were more ardent lovers than these two." Happy Pioneer Day Louie!"

 

Each case is unique.  

[JulieM]

14 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Fair enough, but that's not really what I was asking.

Ok.  I thought you were asking if God has an opinion in on polygamy?  I replied with how I believe He may feel.  I think he’s most likely indifferent about if if it’s between consensual adults, and no one is under age, there is no force and no abuse or deceit involved.

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

ALarson and JulieM, to name the two with whom you've mostly interacted, seemed primarily motivated to disagree with polygyny because it is "not intuitively 'good'" to them -- and have not been able to rise to the same level of "study and contemplation" that you have.  In short, they don't like it, so it can't be true. 

I don't fault them for this sentiment.  I just hope they find a way to reconcile themselves to the what the scriptures and prophets and apostles have said: that polygamy has, on occasion, been commanded of God.  

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

It is certain that the only defense against something so well attested to in scripture, both ancient and modern, is to deny the plain meaning in scripture.

Yep. 

• A: "God never commanded polygamy."
• B. "Jacob said that He can sometimes command polygamy."
• A: "That doesn't count."
• B: "Nathan declared that God gave David his (polygamous) wives."
• A: "That doesn't count, either."
• B: "Numerous accounts from 19th century members of the Church speak of them feeling commanded to enter into polygamy."
• A: "Nope.  Doesn't mean anything."
• B: "Section 132 of the Doctrine & Covenants..."
• A: "Nope, that doesn't count."

And on and on.

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

During the entire period of the Old Testament, from the moment we are introduced to polygyny in Genesis 4:23 ("And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah ...), until Malachi closes out the OT, polygyny is practiced by multiple patriarchs, mentioned as if a commonplace in many other places, regulated in the Law of Moses, and generally shows up everywhere.  And the naysayer then claims that the God who gave Moses detailed instructions as to do hundreds of little things, issued laws covering pretty much everything, couldn't so much as say one peep to forbid this one thing?  We have rules forbidding sexual relations between parent and child, between a man and his wife's sister, between humans and beasts, but somehow, out of all that, He somehow forgets to forbid polygyny?  It is beyond belief and into delusion, actually.

Perhaps not "delusion" as much as a visceral dislike of polygamy.  The "Ick Factor," as I have sometimes called it.

We sometimes have a hard time detecting the influence of deeply-engrained cultural presuppositions in our worldview.

Thanks,

-Smac

[JLHPROF]

5 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Ok.  I thought you were asking if God has an opinion in on polygamy?  I replied with how I believe He may feel.  I think he’s most likely indifferent about if if it’s between consensual adults, and no one is under age, there is no force and no abuse or deceit involved.

I asked if God had an opinion on the practice of polygamy.  Not if God objected to abusive behavior.

God has never condemned the practice nor rejected anyone for living it.  And many revelations have been given to prophets in all ages who were living polygamy.

Basically you believe it is man-made.   Fair enough.  But God seems to have no objection to the practice.  There's no sin in the practice, only in abuse.

Edited July 26, 2019 by JLHPROF

[JulieM]

18 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I asked if God had an opinion on the practice of polygamy.  Not if God objected to abusive behavior.

And I answered that I believe He is indifferent about practicing polygamy as long as there’s no abuse or force, etc. involved.  I don’t believe he’d command someone to practice polygamy and I don’t believe he’d forbid it.

Edited July 26, 2019 by JulieM

[smac97]

1 hour ago, changed said:

I just read a pioneer story, that polygamy allowed Mormon lesbians to be married to one another - so it was not necessarily based on the relashonship between the wife and husband, but instead based on the relationship between the wives.  

Quote:

"In honor of Pioneer Day, a state holiday recognizing the day that Brigham Young came into the Salt Lake valley, stuck his cane into the ground and said, "This is the right place." (The Mormon pioneers were originally heading to the San Francisco Bay but decided to stop short. Thank goddess!) So today, I wish to remember my favorite Queer Pioneer Ancestor (by spirit, not by blood), Sarah Louisa "Louie" Bouton of Connecticut, who at 16, was a member of the William H. Chipman Pioneer Company, arriving in the Salt Lake valley on September 15, 1866. Within two months of arriving, Louie was married at 16 to Joseph H. Felt, 26. According to her autobiography, about 1874 Louie met and fell in love with a woman in her LDS ward named Lizzie Mineer. Louie encouraged her husband to marry Lizzie as a polygamous wife, which he did in 1876. Then about 1881 Louie fell in love with another woman named Lizzie Liddell, and again Joseph obligingly married this second Lizzie, so Louie could "open her home and share her love" with Lizzie. In 1883, while on the train, she met Mary "May" Anderson of Liverpool, England, and they too fell in love. This time May moved in with Louie while Joseph and the two Lizzies moved out. Thus began one of the most intense, stable, and productive love relationships in early 20th century Mormonism. The two women lived together over 40 years in what is called in Queer Studies a "Boston marriage." (Google that!) The couple also presided over three of Mormonism's most significant institutions: as the first two General Presidents of the General Primary Association (for Mormon children), as founders and editors of the "Children's Friend" magazine, and as founders of the Primary Children's Hospital. Their autobiography reports, "Those who watched their devotion to each other declare that there never were more ardent lovers than these two." Happy Pioneer Day Louie!"

Each case is unique.  

Meh.  This story is very speculative, and also extraordinarily rare.  From Wikipedia:

Quote

Though acknowledging a lack of direct proof, some historians speculate that Louie and May could have been what in modern times would be called lesbian partners.^[6][5]This is based largely on the seemingly erotic connotations of their biographies that appeared in Children's Friend; for example, the statement that while the couple was working on Primary matters, "when they were too tired to sit up any longer they put on their bathrobes and crawled into bed to work until the wee small hours of the night".^[6] Other Mormon historians argue that female-female sexual intimacy would have been regarded as sinful at the time, and argue for a presumption that their relationship was purely platonic.^[1] Other researchers have been non-committal on the issue; one has stated only that Anderson "was as close to President Felt as any woman could be".^[13] Both sides acknowledge, however, that the relationship between Louie and May was an intense one, and that they shared a deep love for one another.

Sexual relations between wives in polygamous marriages was not a thing.

Thanks,

-Smac

[JulieM]

9 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

God has never condemned the practice nor rejected anyone for living it.  And many revelations have been given to prophets in all ages who were living polygamy.

But God does condemn abuse and lies and deceit.  Those are the issues most have with polygamy (if they are taking place as part of the practicing) and with how Joseph practiced polygamy (the lies and deceit and betrayal to Emma and then to others with marrying other mens’ wives).   Also, the marrying of Emma’s young housemaids who she loved as daughters.  Some of his wives were underage too.

Edited July 26, 2019 by JulieM

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, JulieM said:

But God does condemn abuse and lies and deceit.  Those are the issues most have with polygamy (if they are taking place as part of the practicing) and with how Joseph practiced polygamy (the lies and deceit and betrayal to Emma and then to others with marrying other mens’ wives).   Also, the marrying of Emma’s young housemaids who she loved as daughters.  Some of his wives were underage too.

Plenty of that kind of thing in monogamy too.  Can't blame it on polygamy.

[JulieM]

1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

Plenty of that kind of thing in monogamy too.  

Yes, and God condemns that too.

“Can't blame it on polygamy”

I haven’t done that.  Your question was specifically about polygamy, so that’s what I was specifically addressing.  I never said that this only happens when living polygamy.

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Yes, and God condemns that too.

“Can't blame it on polygamy”

I haven’t done that.  Your question was specifically about polygamy, so that’s what I was specifically addressing.  I never said that this only happens when living polygamy.

Then why make the connection?

Address polygamy on its own merits.

[JulieM]

5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Then why make the connection?

It was a part of my answer to your original question:

”Do you believe God has an opinion on the subject of polygamy?”

I’ve answered you several times by saying I believe God neither forbids polygamy nor commands it and I believe He is indifferent about it as long as it is practiced with consenting adults, no lies or deceit and no abuse.  That’s what I believe God’s opinion is on that subject.

And of course I know God also condemns any of those occurring with any relationship.  

Edited July 26, 2019 by JulieM

[changed]

4 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I asked if God had an opinion on the practice of polygamy. 

In Eden - God created Adam and Eve - two.

Matt 19:3-6 So that they are no more two, but one flesh→ in reference to Adam and Eve in Eden - two.

Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.  - wife - singular

1 Timothy 3 :2 The bishop therefore must be without reproach, the husband of one wife

 Consider also the parallel of husband and wife with Christ and the Church in Eph. 5:22–33, which makes sense only with monogamy — Jesus will not have multiple brides. 

The 10th Commandment ‘… You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife [singular] 

1 Corinthians 7:2 

Ecc 9:9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun. 

And he shall not acquire many wives for himself, lest his heart turn away, nor shall he acquire for himself excessive silver and gold. – Deuteronomy 17:17

Jacob 2:24 – Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

Jacob 2:27 – Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none.

Ether 10:5 – Riplakish did not do that which was right in the sight of the Lord, for he did have many wives and concubines.

In Eden - God created Adam and Eve - two.

Matt 19:3-6 So that they are no more two, but one flesh→ in reference to Adam and Eve in Eden - two.

Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.  - wife - singular

1 Timothy 3 :2 The bishop therefore must be without reproach, the husband of one wife

 Consider also the parallel of husband and wife with Christ and the Church in Eph. 5:22–33, which makes sense only with monogamy — Jesus will not have multiple brides. 

The 10th Commandment ‘… You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife [singular] 

1 Corinthians 7:2 

Ecc 9:9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun. 

And he shall not acquire many wives for himself, lest his heart turn away, nor shall he acquire for himself excessive silver and gold. – Deuteronomy 17:17

Jacob 2:24 – Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

Jacob 2:27 – Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none.

Ether 10:5 – Riplakish did not do that which was right in the sight of the Lord, for he did have many wives and concubines.

Genesis 16:5 And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: 

Edited July 26, 2019 by changed