Calm Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 (edited) 21 hours ago, sunstoned said: Quote the full quote then have a dialog about it. Explain what pres. Snow might of meant. Do you see yourself as doing this right now? Because I don't. For your purposes the full quote should be enough text from his sermon to establish what he meant by "means". Since there is no referent in the quote so far provided imo, the full quote has not been provided, nor has there been dialogue about it. What the "full quote" relevant to this topic is (give me a second to edit it in)... Unfortunately I can't find the full sermon or surrounding paragraphs in text, so will provide some of it from previous quoting from Hamba and then a link to google books where the actual quote is from: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/71686-im-beginning-to-have-a-tithing-problem-only-not-in-the-traditional-sense/?do=findComment&comment=1209912320 Quote 'No man can keep this law unless he pay a conscientious tithing' (p. 27). 'Bishop Preston ... would show you that the name of every man, woman and child who pays tithing is recorded [in the book of the law of the Lord] and none others' (p. 27). Please note how I handled this quote. Then I invite you to look at the entire paragraph it has been taken from and tell me if I have not been faithful to the original. Also, please note how one gets her or his name in the book of the law of the Lord. 'The Lord manifested to me most clearly ... to teach this principle to the Latter-day Saints, because there had been woeful neglect of this law, and the Latter-day Saints should be shown the necessity of observing this law most faithfully' (p. 28) Same deal holds on the elision in this quote. 'In looking over the books we found that a great many of the Latter-day Saints had not paid one cent of tithing. I was perfectly astonished, for I had no idea that there had been so much neglect' (p. 28). Note that not paying any tithing is a source of astonishment, not something he would expect -- and in fact is considered 'neglect'. 'I know the Lord will forgive the Latter-day Saints for their past negligence in paying tithing, if they will now repent and pay a conscientious tithing from this time on' (p. 28). And lastly: 'It is God's truth that the time has now come when He will not look favorably upon our negligence of this principle. I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child who has means shall pay one-tenth of their income as a tithing' (p. 28). https://books.google.com/books?id=Rr3tAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq="and+I+pray+that+every+man,+woman+and+child+who+has+means+shall+pay"&source=bl&ots=iOdtT1Dxwh&sig=X-0mBTLNwAaKyQ1EObhs0yW2bcs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rcT1UqCUI4HsoATWyILgDw&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q="and I pray that every man%2C woman and child who has means shall pay"&f=false Edited January 20, 2020 by Calm 1
Tacenda Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 9 minutes ago, Calm said: I have no means and do not pay. I have never gotten the slightest impression I should pay. Maybe the church left it out in case people believe just because they don't have an income you don't need to pay tithing. But what about social security, or gifts of money or stocks? Or donating land etc. Maybe the church doesn't want these other means discounted.
Calm Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 12 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Maybe the church left it out in case people believe just because they don't have an income you don't need to pay tithing. But what about social security, or gifts of money or stocks? Or donating land etc. Maybe the church doesn't want these other means discounted. Please post where the Church is telling people to pay on SS, gifts of money or stocks, etc. 1
Tacenda Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 17 minutes ago, Calm said: Please post where the Church is telling people to pay on SS, gifts of money or stocks, etc. See the bold, I think that would apply. And know some that do pay on SS. “Chapter 28: Tithing and Offerings,” Gospel Fundamentals, 154Tithing is one-tenth of the money and other things we earn. Our Father in Heaven told people long, long ago to pay tithing. Abraham, Jacob, and many others obeyed this commandment.If we earn or receive money, we should give one-tenth of it as tithing. If we have animals or crops we can also pay tithing. We give one-tenth of the crops or one-tenth of the new animals raised in the year. If possible, instead of giving the crops and animals to the Church, we should sell them and give the money to the Church. We pay our tithing to the bishop or the branch president. If we do not know how much we should give, we should ask our bishop or branch president to help us understand the law of tithing. As we pay our tithing, we help spread the gospel throughout the world. Tithing is used to build Church buildings, print books, and pay for other things needed in Jesus’ true Church. Even children should pay tithing. They will learn to do this as they see their parents pay tithing. If they begin to pay tithing when they are young, they will want to pay it when they are older and have families of their own.
Calm Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 (edited) Quote Do I pay tithing on my income before taxes are taken out or on what I receive after taxes? The First Presidency has answered this question in this way: “The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this” (First Presidency letter, Mar. 19, 1970). In other words, the way you define your income, and consequently your tithing, is a matter between you and the Lord. Prayerfully seek the Lord’s guidance on issues like taxes, gifts, scholarships, and other matters to determine what qualifies as a full tithe. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2008/02/to-the-point/do-i-pay-tithing-on-my-income-before-taxes-are-taken-out-or-on-what-i-receive-after-taxes?lang=eng added later: Tacenda, do you think it is better for the Church to leave it open for the tithepayer to decide (in which case there are probably as many who decide to give less as there are those who decide to give more) or to itemize what should and shouldn't be paid on with all the complications that involves because of all the various possibilities? Edited January 21, 2020 by Calm
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 21, 2020 Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) 23 hours ago, Calm said: Unfortunately I can't find the full sermon or surrounding paragraphs in text, so will provide some of it from previous quoting from Hamba and then a link to google books where the actual quote is from: This is, in my opinion, a more accessible link, set to the page where the quotation under discussion appears. One can then flip backwards and read the sermon in its entirety. And for genuinely honest enquirers, one can read all three days of the General Conference and note how the word means was used by Pres Snow and other Church leaders at this point in time, and particularly in relation to the law of tithing. Some useful snippets: Heber J. Grant (p. 17, emphasis added): Quote I have ever known that those who pay not their tithing are the ones that criticise the expenditure of the tithing. Those who are approached for donations for laudable purposes, sometimes under the direction of the Presidency of the Church, and who refuse to contribute, are the ones that criticise the Presidency of the Church and the Apostles for calling upon them for means. Heber J. Grant (p. 20, emphasis added): Quote If you desire the Spirit of God, be honest in keeping the commandments of God. If you desire prosperity, and at the same time the testimony of the Gospel, pay all your obligations to God and you shall have it. If you are not honest with God, you may prosper and you may be blessed with the things of this world, but they will crowd out from your heart the spirit of the Gospel; you will become covetous of your own means and lose the inspiration of Almighty God. Lorenzo Snow (p. 23, emphasis added): Quote The Lord also determined that possession of that country [the land of Zion] should not be gained except by the purchase of the land. It should be bought and paid for by the means furnished by the Latter-day Saints, whether rich or poor. It should be bought as other people buy land. Lorenzo Snow (p. 24, emphasis added): Quote The people as a general thing were poor. There were no rich men that received the Gospel in those early days. But by combination and union they could have secured the means to carry out the purposes of the Almighty in regard to the purchase of that country. They failed because of their love for money. In a revelation after this we are told that they failed to give their names as they were commanded. The Lord sent Elders throughout the States, where there were Latter-day Saints to collect means for this purpose, and the people in Jackson County were required to observe the law of consecration. But they failed to do it, and therefore the lands were not secured. Lorenzo Snow (p. 27, emphasis added): Quote This Church could not go on unless there was revenue, and this revenue God has provided for. Our temples, in which we receive the highest blessings ever conferred on mortal man, are built through revenue. We never could send the two thousand Elders out into the world to preach the Gospel, as we are now doing, unless there was revenue to do it. It costs tens of thousands of dollars, running into the hundreds of thousands, to send our Elders out to the world year after year. Then there are a thousand other things constantly occurring for which means are required. John Henry Smith (p. 30, emphasis added): Quote There remains unpaid about one-half of the means that was originally deemed necessary to complete that work. It has been distributed among the Stakes, and to the credit of a few Stakes, let it be said they have fulfilled their full part in regard to this matter ... and some of the other Stakes have nearly paid the proportion that was allotted to them. John Henry Smith (p. 32, emphasis added): Quote I bear my testimony to the truth of the law of God directing the collection of means for establishing His work. Possibly no man has been so extreme in his judgment upon this matter as myself, under some circumstances; for in one of the Stakes of Zion some months ago, I presumed to say to the authorities of that Stake that if there was an officer there who was not prepared to accept the law of tithing, so far as I was concerned as a representative of the Presidency of this Church, I was there to accept his resignation. Francis M. Lyman (p. 35, emphasis added): Quote There are, in the records of the Church today, the names of every man, woman and child who has given of their means for tithing. Those records can be scanned and our faith and works can be understood by the Presidency of the Church. Francis M. Lyman (p. 37, emphasis added): Quote The widow's mite, thank the Lord, is as large as the millionaire's great amount of means that he may turn over ... Joseph F. Smith (p. 39, emphasis added): Quote There is nothing, however, of greater importance to the welfare of the Church at present than the consideration of this law [of tithing], by which means will be placed In the storehouse of the Lord, to meet the necessities of the people. Joseph F. Smith (p. 44, emphasis added): Quote Our children, as soon as they become old enough to earn means, should be taught to pay their tithing, that their names may be written in the book of the law of the Lord ... There is simply no honest way to read these (and other) passages from this one weekend of General Conference and then accept the false and misleading implication that the lazy and/or disingenuous meme-makers are seeking to promulgate. Edited January 21, 2020 by Hamba Tuhan 2
Tacenda Posted January 21, 2020 Posted January 21, 2020 7 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: This is, in my opinion, a more accessible link, set to the page where the quotation under discussion appears. One can then flip backwards and read the sermon in its entirety. And for genuinely honest enquirers, one can read all three days of the General Conference and note how the word means was used by Pres Snow and other Church leaders at this point in time, and particularly in relation to the law of tithing. Some useful snippets: Heber J. Grant (p. 17, emphasis added): Heber J. Grant (p. 20, emphasis added): Lorenzo Snow (p. 23, emphasis added): Lorenzo Snow (p. 24, emphasis added): Lorenzo Snow (p. 27, emphasis added): John Henry Smith (p. 30, emphasis added): John Henry Smith (p. 32, emphasis added): Francis M. Lyman (p. 35, emphasis added): Francis M. Lyman (p. 37, emphasis added): Joseph F. Smith (p. 39, emphasis added): Joseph F. Smith (p. 44, emphasis added): There is simply no honest way to read these (and other) passages from this one weekend of General Conference and then accept the false and misleading implication that the lazy and/or disingenuous meme-makers are seeking to promulgate. You proved absolutely nothing, IMO. Three words isn't much for the church or curriculum to have to delete.
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 21, 2020 Posted January 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, Tacenda said: You proved absolutely nothing, IMO. Three words isn't much for the church or curriculum to have to delete. 1
Tacenda Posted January 21, 2020 Posted January 21, 2020 5 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I'm sorry if I'm being rude, I've been upset about some things and taking it out on you wasn't very cool.
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 21, 2020 Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I'm sorry if I'm being rude, I've been upset about some things and taking it out on you wasn't very cool. I can deal just fine with rude. It's not rudeness in your response that I was reacting to ... Sorry you have reason to be upset. Edited January 21, 2020 by Hamba Tuhan
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