Metis_LDS Posted December 9, 2018 Author Posted December 9, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Calm said: But if that is what they really want...and they chose it knowing the consequences as far as we are aware...is it really a cost? For them? Or for God? SO when the wicked do evil there is no cost because that is what they wanted? How could they chose on the basis of not having had a body. Edited December 9, 2018 by Metis_LDS formatting
Avatar4321 Posted December 9, 2018 Posted December 9, 2018 2 hours ago, Metis_LDS said: The point is that we do not always see God doing right in terms of cost. Costs are what make it all real. Well why would we always see God doing right? We don’t even know a Fraction of what He is doing. We are in no position to make that judgment. 1
Calm Posted December 9, 2018 Posted December 9, 2018 34 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said: Does not God always do right? I trust in my God and the scriptures. Then I don't understand the purpose of your question or the addition of "no matter the cost".
Calm Posted December 9, 2018 Posted December 9, 2018 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said: SO when the wicked do evil there is no cost because that is what they wanted? How could they chose on the basis of not having had a body. It depends on how you define "cost" and who is 'paying'. If "cost" is "unnecessary suffering that could have been avoided by God choosing another path for men to follow", then I believe there is no cost as I don't believe any suffering they are experiencing is unnecessary. If cost is defined as "the difference in suffering as the result of our choices" then I would say there were no negative costs, in their choice maximized their positive experiences even if it appears to be a negative from our POV. If "cost" is defined as "necessary suffering", that is something differentwith different implications. I don't understand your second question, do you mean they couldn't be fully informed because they hadn't experienced having a body yet? That it might be having a body would in the future be more important to them if they experienced it? If so, I would point out they weren't yet that person who had experienced that body, therefore their wants and needs can only be based on who they were at that time. Hypotheticals of what might be are irrelevant. Edited December 9, 2018 by Calm
Calm Posted December 9, 2018 Posted December 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Metis_LDS said: Heaven must act on what is right no matter what comes after. But if "right" is what God does, then whatever action Heaven takes is defined as "right". The whole "no matter what comes after" is irrelevant.
Metis_LDS Posted December 9, 2018 Author Posted December 9, 2018 25 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: Well why would we always see God doing right? We don’t even know a Fraction of what He is doing. We are in no position to make that judgment. Yes I respect your outlook.
Metis_LDS Posted December 9, 2018 Author Posted December 9, 2018 6 minutes ago, Calm said: It depends on how you define "cost" and who is 'paying'. I don't understand your second question, do you mean they couldn't be fully informed because they hadn't experienced having a body yet? That it might be having a body would in the future be more important to them if they experienced it? If so, I would point out they weren't yet that person who had experienced that body, therefore their wants and needs can only be based on who they were at that time. Hypotheticals of what might be are irrelevant. I always thought that the real issue was rejecting the plan of salvation and not getting a body was due to that. Are you saying some rejected the Plan of Salvation because they did not want a body?.
Metis_LDS Posted December 9, 2018 Author Posted December 9, 2018 6 minutes ago, Calm said: But if "right" is what God does, then whatever action Heaven takes is defined as "right". The whole "no matter what comes after" is irrelevant. Yes I can what you are saying. No matter what comes after is still very real however.
Calm Posted December 9, 2018 Posted December 9, 2018 (edited) Quote Are you saying some rejected the Plan of Salvation because they did not want a body?. It is possible. But what I would say is that they rejected the Plan because there were other things more important to them, that they valued more than getting a body. The Universe is not set up so we can get everything we wanted at any minute of our existence. There is therefore a hierarchy of desires, some more important than others and possibly one more important than all others (though I think it is more like groups of desires that work together being judged against other desires that are grouped together). Eternal progression allows for us to commit ourselves to develop desires that are compatible with God's perfection. But at the moment when we are choosing that, the only thing we can really say is at that moment the thing we want most is to be one with God or some other way of saying "Thy will be done". Edited December 9, 2018 by Calm
Meerkat Posted December 11, 2018 Posted December 11, 2018 On 12/9/2018 at 11:10 AM, bluebell said: It seems like the cost was caused by the friend not listening and were not caused by Heaven. Maybe so. But even the negative consequence had a positive outcome. It was instructive to the friend, to Metis_LDS, and now us. I believe Metis' premise is partially supported by Romans 8:28, when we are faithful: " And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." That is a conditional promise, that we love God. I also believe that, when we turn to God, He can make all the mistakes we have made work together for good. Examples: Alma the Younger, the Apostle Paul. 2
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