Oaks on Religious Freedom

[CV75]

15 hours ago, rockpond said:

For me, having people around me actually feel appreciated is important if my goal is to appreciate them.

You didn't answer my question:  What did Prop 8 accomplish?  It was passed.  What did its passage do if not to deny legal marriage rights to gay couples?

I too have the goal to appreciate others (along with many other Christlike goals) and it is important to me that they feel appreciated. Similarly, it is important to me to honor the freedoms of speech and religion, and other freedoms, and balance citizens' interests through the political process. I try to bring the former into the latter.

A discussion of what Prop 8 accomplished and did not accomplish, and getting into the intended and unintended short- and long-term results, impacts and consequences is something I'm not interested in, since I feel our discussion of discrimination and appreciation is more in line with the topic of the thread.

Edited December 20, 2018 by CV75

[rockpond]

16 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I too have the goal to appreciate others (along with many other Christlike goals) and it is important to me that they feel appreciated. Similarly, it is important to me to honor the freedoms of speech and religion, and other freedoms, and balance citizens' interests through the political process. I try to bring the former into the latter.

A discussion of what Prop 8 accomplished and did not accomplish, and getting into the intended and unintended short- and long-term results, impacts and consequences is something I'm not interested in, since I feel our discussion of discrimination and appreciation is more in line with the topic of the thread.

Within this discussion of discrimination and appreciation you have claimed that Prop 8 did not deny legal marriage rights to gay couples in California.  That’s false.  

If I have misunderstood your claim, please clarify.  But your refusal to answer a very straightforward question tells me that you realize the answer doesn’t align with the weak position you’ve tried to stake down. 

[california boy]

15 hours ago, rockpond said:

For me, having people around me actually feel appreciated is important if my goal is to appreciate them.

You didn't answer my question:  What did Prop 8 accomplish?  It was passed.  What did its passage do if not to deny legal marriage rights to gay couples?

I will tell you what I have seen as the real world effects of Prop 8.  Unlike CV75, the people of California fully realize that Prop 8 was a proposition designed to take away the civil rights of gay couples.  Many felt they were deceived by the fear-based, unfounded consequences the Prop 8 campaign foisted upon them and many sincerely regret not fully understanding what their votes stood for.  If you want me to get into specifics about the deceit of the Prop 8 campaign I would be more than happy to go over some of the shady ads Mormon contributions paid for. 

After Prop 8 for months news programs presented representatives from both sides of the Prop 8 campaign.  Both sides got to present their case to the American public and point out the differences in their positions.  Those that supported Prop 8 had to defend their fear-based assertions that they tried to foist on the American people. (Do you remember those arguments?  People marrying animals.  Kindergarteners being recruited into the gay lifestyle, etc. Many of those assertions were supported and argued on this very site.) As a result of those discussions where false and misleading assertions were challenged, opinion polls on gay marriage moved from being negative to over 60% approving of gay marriage.  That number only continues to climb in favor of supporting gay marriage.  If Prop 8 had not been on the California ballot and won, those discussions may have never taken place. Not only is gay marriage legal throughout the United States, but almost 2/3 of the country support that right.

As far as the effects on the Church,  it has been significant.  Prior to the Church's involvement in Prop 8, the church in California was thought of as a pro-family-centered church who took care of their own. That has been completely overshadowed by the belief that the Church is anti-gay and a bigoted church that has no tolerance for gays and blacks.  Yeah, people still remember the baring blacks from the priesthood.  My kids tell me it has become difficult to tell people that they are Mormon.  (yeah that term is still used).  Those that they meet become quite judgemental towards them, assuming the same things about them as they do the church.  When I tell someone I used to be Mormon, the criticism towards the church is much harsher.  Just yesterday, I was talking to someone (straight BTW) who is from Italy, working here on a visa.  He was fully aware of the attitudes Mormons have against gays and was quite negative towards the Church.  PEW research polls the Mormon Church as the least liked Christian church across America. 

Yes the church had every right to speak out in the public square, and support a proposition that took away civil rights from gay couples. But choosing to do so has completely changed how others view the Mormon church.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, rockpond said:

Within this discussion of discrimination and appreciation you have claimed that Prop 8 did not deny legal marriage rights to gay couples in California.  That’s false.  

If I have misunderstood your claim, please clarify.  But your refusal to answer a very straightforward question tells me that you realize the answer doesn’t align with the weak position you’ve tried to stake down. 

The context in which I make that claim is in response to your claim that Prop 8 is an example of a lack of appreciation for others. I don't know whether you have misunderstood it or not. You may not accept or appreciate it regardless, but that does not make it false. I don't think I can explain or clarify it any better. I understand the context, semantics and rhetoric in making your claim, but I don't accept it as true or conclusive of what Prop 8 accomplished or whether or how its supporters didn't appreciate gay people; it's false. Yay!

Edited December 20, 2018 by CV75

[rockpond]

50 minutes ago, CV75 said:

The context in which I make that claim is in response to your claim that Prop 8 is an example of a lack of appreciation for others. I don't know whether you have misunderstood it or not. You may not accept or appreciate it regardless, but that does not make it false. I don't think I can explain or clarify it any better. I understand the context, semantics and rhetoric in making your claim, but I don't accept it as true or conclusive of what Prop 8 accomplished or whether or how its supporters didn't appreciate gay people; it's false. Yay!

Okay... if Prop 8 did not deny legal marriage rights to gay couples, what did it accomplish (before it was overturned as unconstitutional)?

Edited December 20, 2018 by rockpond

[CV75]

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

Okay... if Prop 8 did not deny legal marriage rights to gay couples, what did it accomplish (before it was overturned as unconstitutional)?

I appreciate your asking this again, and my response is the same as before.

We cannot distill the accomplishment(s) into a single point of fact, especially in context of this thread, any more than we can measure how many felt they were being appreciative to others and those who felt they were not appreciated by events occurring throughout the process up until its being overturned.

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I appreciate your asking this again, and my response is the same as before.

We cannot distill the accomplishment(s) into a single point of fact, ...

Actually you can.  It really isn't that complicated.  Prop 8 was a ballot proposition.  A set of words voted into law.  It amended California's state constitution to define marriage as strictly between a man and a woman which had the result of prohibiting legally recognized marriages between same-sex couples.  This is what the passage of Prop 8 accomplished, temporarily, until it was deemed unconstitutional and overturned.   Do you disagree?

[CV75]

23 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Actually you can.  It really isn't that complicated.  Prop 8 was a ballot proposition.  A set of words voted into law.  It amended California's state constitution to define marriage as strictly between a man and a woman which had the result of prohibiting legally recognized marriages between same-sex couples.  This is what the passage of Prop 8 accomplished, temporarily, until it was deemed unconstitutional and overturned.   Do you disagree?

Yes, because there is so much more that is not so simple, some of which you have attached to it throughout this conversation, as that! Now I suggest you stop falsely speaking for me, as it isn't much better than badgering me for a response.

[rockpond]

6 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Yes, because there is so much more that is not so simple, some of which you have attached to it throughout this conversation, as that! Now I suggest you stop falsely speaking for me, as it isn't much better than badgering me for a response.

If I have incorrectly "attached" something to Prop 8, this is your opportunity to set me straight.  All I am doing is asking what you think the passage of Prop 8 accomplished.  It is intriguing that you won't answer.

I'm not falsely speaking for you.  I've only asked you a question.  It's your lack of a reasonable response that speaks for you.

[CV75]

15 hours ago, rockpond said:

If I have incorrectly "attached" something to Prop 8, this is your opportunity to set me straight.  All I am doing is asking what you think the passage of Prop 8 accomplished.  It is intriguing that you won't answer.

I'm not falsely speaking for you.  I've only asked you a question.  It's your lack of a reasonable response that speaks for you.

You are only sharing your perceptions as am I, and I conclude they are false for reasons I explained. I shared reasonable responses and youresort to falsely speaking for me (suggesting that I can promote an idea I said I cannot), which effectively renders you speaking to yourself (I won't say whether that is rational or not).

[Kenngo1969]

On 12/5/2018 at 11:44 PM, Yirgacheffe said:

Then why is the press taxed?

Because it is a for-profit enterprise, while religion is not.  (And before you bring up for-profit enterprises which are owned or controlled by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints those are taxed.

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

You are only sharing your perceptions as am I, and I conclude they are false for reasons I explained. I shared reasonable responses and youresort to falsely speaking for me (suggesting that I can promote an idea I said I cannot), which effectively renders you speaking to yourself (I won't say whether that is rational or not).

I am sincerely not trying to falsely speak for you.  I'm not trying to speak for you at all.  I am trying to understand you.  What idea am I suggesting that you can promote (that you cannot)?  I'm not sure what you are referring to?

And I would still like to understand your position of what you feel Prop 8 accomplished because I honestly don't get why you can't answer that question.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Because it is a for-profit enterprise, while religion is not.  (And before you bring up for-profit enterprises which are owned or controlled by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints those are taxed.

I see you are not able to receive messages (or maybe i just cannot send them), but here is what i tried to send:

Merry Christmas Kennogo, and thank you for all those rep points! What a surprise, and I got such a kick out of them! I feel like a greedy little kid on Christmas morning (in a good way, of course!). May your holiday be happy and your new year wonderful! 😀😁😂😃😄😅😊☺️🙂... I hope that was excessive enough!

[CV75]

2 hours ago, rockpond said:

I am sincerely not trying to falsely speak for you.  I'm not trying to speak for you at all.  I am trying to understand you.  What idea am I suggesting that you can promote (that you cannot)?  I'm not sure what you are referring to?

And I would still like to understand your position of what you feel Prop 8 accomplished because I honestly don't get why you can't answer that question.

I did answer that question pages ago, and more than once. It is a non-politically motivated, non-political answer.

I am content at this point if you do not understand, but if you have specific questions about specific statements I made which demonstrate that you are trying to understand rather than needlessly driving a point that I understand but don't agree with, I may be able to accommodate you. I won't repeat myself, though, so if it seems like the question is going that way, I won't reply. But since you've already assessed my answer as false a few replies ago, what is really left for you to understand?

[rockpond]

31 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I did answer that question pages ago, and more than once. It is a non-politically motivated, non-political answer.

I am content at this point if you do not understand, but if you have specific questions about specific statements I made which demonstrate that you are trying to understand rather than needlessly driving a point that I understand but don't agree with, I may be able to accommodate you. I won't repeat myself, though, so if it seems like the question is going that way, I won't reply. But since you've already assessed my answer as false a few replies ago, what is really left for you to understand?

What is left for me to understand is what you believe Prop 8 did if not to prevent gay couples in California from entering legally recognized marriages.  It’s the same question I’ve asked and I don’t believe you’ve answered. 

(It would be easier to simply answer the question than to keep replying with all of your reasons for not answering... unless, of course, you aren’t answering because you realize it is problematic to your position.)

Edited December 21, 2018 by rockpond