General Conferences and Hermeneutics

[mfbukowski]

6 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

LDS doctrine does claim that both secular and spiritual means of knowing are worthwhile, and it is true that there is a special kind of CES "priesthood" in Seminaries and Institutes pretending to play the scholarly game.  In reality, the LDS faith spends very little time in focus on scholarship -- unless it is of the predigested variety.  There are so few Mormons who are actually biblical scholars or theologians, and that by choice not direction.

Agreed. As always personal revelation is the most important priority.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Sorry for being dumb, but what is the OP? Original Protestant; Original Poster; Obviously Profound?  Methinks it must be the original poster, referring to me? If so, I have no idea why you would say I "eschew" authority? Is it because I affirm that I see nothing in Mormon males that indicates anything special above that which I see in any Godly person (male or female) of any denomination; those who are committed to Christ-likeness? I understand your anger at being so marginalized as to be compared to any other Godly Christian! Let me reiterate - I do not believe in a special male Mormon priesthood authority because I have, for at least a year searched for the same in you all and have come up with a specialness that only matches, but does not exceed that of any Godly man or woman of any Christian group. You may claim all the special, unique, only authority you want, but I for one fail to see it, as hard as I have tried. That doesn't mean I detract from your Godliness; I only reject your uniqueness. In that case I guess I think you are the ones who are self-contradictory with a huge blind-spot to boot. And that doesn't come from reading Walter Martin; it comes from close contact and proximity to my LDS friends. I interact with many Mormon priesthood holders and yes, they are not the authorities for Biblical, or perhaps not even for LDS scriptural interpretation. They don't even try! They are like parrots; routinely repeating what they have heard over and over. Virtually every prayer is just like every other prayer. Every testimony is just like every other testimony. I thirst for something personal; something authentic and self-revelatory; much less robotic. 

Well that comment certainly displays your understanding of Mormonism.

It's rather insulting but I think we can take it.

 If you learned that from your friends perhaps you should find some enemies.

 

Edited October 3, 2018 by mfbukowski

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

Sorry for being dumb, but what is the OP? Original Protestant; Original Poster; Obviously Profound?  Methinks it must be the original poster, referring to me? If so, I have no idea why you would say I "eschew" authority? Is it because I affirm that I see nothing in Mormon males that indicates anything special above that which I see in any Godly person (male or female) of any denomination; those who are committed to Christ-likeness? I understand your anger at being so marginalized as to be compared to any other Godly Christian! Let me reiterate - I do not believe in a special male Mormon priesthood authority because I have, for at least a year searched for the same in you all and have come up with a specialness that only matches, but does not exceed that of any Godly man or woman of any Christian group. You may claim all the special, unique, only authority you want, but I for one fail to see it, as hard as I have tried. That doesn't mean I detract from your Godliness; I only reject your uniqueness. In that case I guess I think you are the ones who are self-contradictory with a huge blind-spot to boot. And that doesn't come from reading Walter Martin; it comes from close contact and proximity to my LDS friends. I interact with many Mormon priesthood holders and yes, they are not the authorities for Biblical, or perhaps not even for LDS scriptural interpretation. They don't even try! They are like parrots; routinely repeating what they have heard over and over. Virtually every prayer is just like every other prayer. Every testimony is just like every other testimony. I thirst for something personal; something authentic and self-revelatory; much less robotic. 

You are blaming others around you for not finding authenticity and direct revelation? Methinks others are not the problem.

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

You are blaming others around you for not finding authenticity and direct revelation? Methinks others are not the problem.

To live one's life STRIVING to be unexceptional?

Sorry, that seems a little contradictory to me.

"YAY! I won the humility contest!! I am so glad we beat the Mormon team! "

[RevTestament]

11 hours ago, Navidad said:

Sorry for being dumb, but what is the OP? Original Protestant; Original Poster; Obviously Profound?  Methinks it must be the original poster, referring to me? If so, I have no idea why you would say I "eschew" authority? Is it because I affirm that I see nothing in Mormon males that indicates anything special above that which I see in any Godly person (male or female) of any denomination; those who are committed to Christ-likeness? I understand your anger at being so marginalized as to be compared to any other Godly Christian! Let me reiterate - I do not believe in a special male Mormon priesthood authority because I have, for at least a year searched for the same in you all and have come up with a specialness that only matches, but does not exceed that of any Godly man or woman of any Christian group. You may claim all the special, unique, only authority you want, but I for one fail to see it, as hard as I have tried. That doesn't mean I detract from your Godliness; I only reject your uniqueness. In that case I guess I think you are the ones who are self-contradictory with a huge blind-spot to boot. And that doesn't come from reading Walter Martin; it comes from close contact and proximity to my LDS friends. I interact with many Mormon priesthood holders and yes, they are not the authorities for Biblical, or perhaps not even for LDS scriptural interpretation. They don't even try! They are like parrots; routinely repeating what they have heard over and over. Virtually every prayer is just like every other prayer. Every testimony is just like every other testimony. I thirst for something personal; something authentic and self-revelatory; much less robotic. 

Let me hazard a response, because you are implying that LDS are mere automatons in righteousness. I would be insulted if I didn't know how ridiculous that is about me, so I understand the response you are drawing. I do share somewhat in your observation, and I would personally blame that on the correlation process which I think tends to illicit multiple choice correct lists of answers. If your answer is not on the correct list, like mine sometimes aren't, then alarm bells go off, and the teacher moves on. There is a type of censureship that happens in this process, which personally bothers me, and which I have experienced. So lumping me in your list of saved "robots" doesn't sit well. Nevertheless, to this extent I do have somewhat similar observations. There was also a recent change in testimony meetings which began about a year ago, which I think does tend to make them more repetitive or even mundane. This might be what you are noticing. For this reason I was not crazy about the change, but I believe it was in response to some getting up and rambling on about their lives in a travel log fashion, or trying to teach matters of doctrine from the podium, or a new tendency for some to make a little speech about their coming out of the closet or a tendency in some wards of parents letting lines of their non-member toddlers get up to give repetitive one-liners, or other inappropriate use of the testimony meeting. I pretty much give my testimony like I always have, and after a period of some months I think the changes have settled in for the better. 

I don't thirst for uniqueness. I thirst for truth. I think just that makes me unique in the world, and I think my LDS brethren share that thirst. There is certainly nothing wrong with that. Yeshua was unique, and we strive to be like Him. How we get there may differ, but I believe it to be an authentic Christian goal. God's authority is not a visible thing. We don't strive to set ourselves apart, or to appear holy, which is why we wear our garments under our clothes, instead of fancy vestments for the general public to see. The Christian aspiration is to change the inward (wo)man rather than the outward. Nevertheless, while I was inactive I spotted an LDS Christian countenance at a home show in Orlando, Florida out of a group of thousands there. I said "Are you LDS?" to which he looked at me curiously and asked "Why?" I am not belittling other God-fearing men such as yourself, but I can't agree that there is not something tangibly different or noticeable. I have enjoyed the company of my LDS brothers and sisters throughout my membership. I can't always say the same for members of other churches. I would also say you are unique. Your curiosity and search for authenticity does set you apart from most - dedicating yourself to a year of visitation with your LDS brethren while not planning to join is a definitely unique act.

I wish you well in your search for authenticity. Even if you feel you don't find it in all LDS people, it is to be found in the Church. The posters on this site are completely authentic and unique - all of them. I don't know a single one who does not display their authenticity daily in their posts and opinions. I hope you notice that. 

[Navidad]

Well, perhaps the best thing for me to do is to simply keep quiet and let the mocking pile up. With each sarcastic response methinks several of you validate my conclusion. I have offered on this site and in the chapel that I believe that Mormons are wonderful, kind, welcoming and a branch on the tree of Christianity as deserving of the name of Christ as any other Christian group. Unless I agree that Mormons are more than that - that you all are the "the only," the one "true," the real live "living" church, which of course by logic concludes that all the rest are not, then I am to be subjected to mocking and belittling. So be it. And yes I will concur with one thing; I think a life lived acknowledging my unexceptionality (non-excpetionality?); is more Christ-like than one lived insisting on exceptionality.

Back in the early 70's we would teach our children to sing in Sunday School a wonderful little song, sung by Psalty the Singing Song Book - in part it goes like this: "If you want to be great in God's Kingdom, Learn to be the Servant of All." From what I have learned, I think being great in God's Kingdom is the overarching goal of Mormonism, that is my observation; the Saints even have a word for it "Exaltation." I do think that is a less-than-optimal word. Just yesterday we talked on this forum about the Suffering Servant motif of Isaiah 53; there is little doubt that many early Jewish scholars interpreted that as referring to the Messiah. For those of us who accept Christ as that Messiah, the teachings in this chapter are those of a suffering servant - leader, one rejected by many for his very lack of exaltation. His entry to earth in a barn on a pile of hay was not the grandeur some had envisioned. Not a bad role model, huh? So I am guilty as mocked.  Here is the link to the song; there is indeed hardly a week that goes by that I don't smile and sing it to myself.

 

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

Let me hazard a response, because you are implying that LDS are mere automatons in righteousness. I would be insulted if I didn't know how ridiculous that is about me, so I understand the response you are drawing. I do share somewhat in your observation, and I would personally blame that on the correlation process which I think tends to illicit multiple choice correct lists of answers. If your answer is not on the correct list, like mine sometimes aren't, then alarm bells go off, and the teacher moves on. There is a type of censureship that happens in this process, which personally bothers me, and which I have experienced. So lumping me in your list of saved "robots" doesn't sit well. Nevertheless, to this extent I do have somewhat similar observations. There was also a recent change in testimony meetings which began about a year ago, which I think does tend to make them more repetitive or even mundane. This might be what you are noticing. For this reason I was not crazy about the change, but I believe it was in response to some getting up and rambling on about their lives in a travel log fashion, or trying to teach matters of doctrine from the podium, or a new tendency for some to make a little speech about their coming out of the closet or a tendency in some wards of parents letting lines of their non-member toddlers get up to give repetitive one-liners, or other inappropriate use of the testimony meeting. I pretty much give my testimony like I always have, and after a period of some months I think the changes have settled in for the better. 

I don't thirst for uniqueness. I thirst for truth. I think just that makes me unique in the world, and I think my LDS brethren share that thirst. There is certainly nothing wrong with that. Yeshua was unique, and we strive to be like Him. How we get there may differ, but I believe it to be an authentic Christian goal. God's authority is not a visible thing. We don't strive to set ourselves apart, or to appear holy, which is why we wear our garments under our clothes, instead of fancy vestments for the general public to see. The Christian aspiration is to change the inward (wo)man rather than the outward. Nevertheless, while I was inactive I spotted an LDS Christian countenance at a home show in Orlando, Florida out of a group of thousands there. I said "Are you LDS?" to which he looked at me curiously and asked "Why?" I am not belittling other God-fearing men such as yourself, but I can't agree that there is not something tangibly different or noticeable. I have enjoyed the company of my LDS brothers and sisters throughout my membership. I can't always say the same for members of other churches. I would also say you are unique. Your curiosity and search for authenticity does set you apart from most - dedicating yourself to a year of visitation with your LDS brethren while not planning to join is a definitely unique act.

I wish you well in your search for authenticity. Even if you feel you don't find it in all LDS people, it is to be found in the Church. The posters on this site are completely authentic and unique - all of them. I don't know a single one who does not display their authenticity daily in their posts and opinions. I hope you notice that. 

Thanks for your response to my post. I appreciate it very much. I wonder about God's authority not being a visible thing? I think it is something that is quite tangible. The burning bush was visible. The pillar of fire and cloud of smoke were visible. The Shekinah glory in the tabernacle and temple was in some way visible; its absence was noticeable. Christ's presence on earth was visible; the transfiguration was visible, etc. One cannot be with our bishop for fifteen minutes without noticing the Godliness in his life. Our Mennonite bishop some years ago was the exact same way. Whether eating in a restaurant, or chatting on a bench the presence of God was active in his walk, talk, and yes, countenance. As a Mormon, you must say I am wrong in that because he couldn't have had the active practice of the presence of God without LDS baptism and confirmation. I will just have to disagree. The Holy Ghost in his life was palpable, as is our current bishop's. He is so authentic in his faith and leadership. Can't you visibly tell when someone is that authentic? It isn't being authoritative; it is being authentic. You have described that about the LDS at an auto show. I am referring to the same visible attribute. I have seen it in Mormons, Mennonites, Presbyterians, and Anglicans. It is a powerful testimony, it is visible and it is an inspiration. If you come back in your next message and say to me  "of course Mormons believe that an Anglican, or a Mennonite, or a Presbyterian can exhibit the practice of the the presence of God via the Holy Ghost," then you are confusing me again because on the other hand you firmly hold that the fullness of the presence of the Holy Ghost can only reside in one "properly" baptized and confirmed by a Mormon priest.

I also very very much appreciate your acknowledgement of our commitment to spend a year as active participants in an LDS ward. How else could I learn what I can't experience in books? We have paid a price for that with friends and family. It is most of the time a lonely walk. Some of my family have cut off communication and we aren't embraced by all members of the ward. I would be a hypocrite if I tried to learn about Mormons from books. In fact, I have learned much in the past year about what Mormons sometimes experience. Our many Catholic neighbors and friends here do not have a historically high regard for the Mormons. That has been the case for 130-some years. It is complicated and messy - of course the majority of the Saints call it "innocent persecution," but I think underneath it all there is fault all around. If you read my article in this summer's MHA Journal you will see what I mean. And please, I have said the exact same thing about the Mennonites in our area. They are exclusive, endogamous, and both racially and religiously prejudiced. I digress. Since attending the ward the attitudes of some our neighbors towards us have changed. While not wanting to overstate it, we are now less than we were before. They simply assume we are now Mormons and have put on us all the baggage that carries in this culture. We have not dissuaded them of that because the only way I can know how it feels is to feel it.

So now since my post last night I also have you all angry with me because I have not come to the right conclusions as of this point in our journey.  I think you will now treat me as one who doesn't treat you as exceptional and miss out on the wonderful leap we have made in other ways (for example acknowledging and advocating for you all as true Christians in the Christian family tree).  Anyway, I am saying too much. i would simply rephrase your last statement a bit. I think I find authenticity in some LDS people, but I don't think it is to be found in "the Church." I have a higher view of the LDS folks than before we started this journey and a lower view of the LDS Church. I suppose that will be equally or more offensive to you all, so I will sigh and continue on the journey. I have a motto in my life. It is reflected in the attachment.

[RevTestament]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

Thanks for your response to my post. I appreciate it very much. I wonder about God's authority not being a visible thing? I think it is something that is quite tangible. The burning bush was visible. The pillar of fire and cloud of smoke were visible. The Shekinah glory in the tabernacle and temple was in some way visible; its absence was noticeable. Christ's presence on earth was visible; the transfiguration was visible, etc. One cannot be with our bishop for fifteen minutes without noticing the Godliness in his life. Our Mennonite bishop some years ago was the exact same way. Whether eating in a restaurant, or chatting on a bench the presence of God was active in his walk, talk, and yes, countenance. As a Mormon, you must say I am wrong in that because he couldn't have had the active practice of the presence of God without LDS baptism and confirmation. I will just have to disagree. The Holy Ghost in his life was palpable, as is our current bishop's. He is so authentic in his faith and leadership. Can't you visibly tell when someone is that authentic? It isn't being authoritative; it is being authentic. You have described that about the LDS at an auto show. I am referring to the same visible attribute. I have seen it in Mormons, Mennonites, Presbyterians, and Anglicans. It is a powerful testimony, it is visible and it is an inspiration. If you come back in your next message and say to me  "of course Mormons believe that an Anglican, or a Mennonite, or a Presbyterian can exhibit the practice of the the presence of God via the Holy Ghost," then you are confusing me again because on the other hand you firmly hold that the fullness of the presence of the Holy Ghost can only reside in one "properly" baptized and confirmed by a Mormon priest.

First of all there is no such thing as a Mormon priest. The priesthood is one of God after the order of the Son of God - usually referred to as the Melchizedek priesthood - just refer to it as the priesthood. Your confusion shows you still do not really understand LDS belief. We do not believe that your Mennonite bishop cannot experience the presence and guidance of the Holy Spirit. Indeed, I believe I told you as an 8-9 year old Baptist boy, the Lord spoke to me, and my experience when I got baptized and repented. I was not LDS, and if I was I would not have held any priesthood at that age. We believe children can learn to seek guidance by the Holy Spirit and experience His guidance, and we encourage that. We encourage non-member investigators in the Church to pray and seek guidance from the Holy Spirit as to whether what we teach them is true. Indeed, I will tell you the very same thing about what we tell you here - pray about them and see if what we tell you is true. DId Yeshua tell us that He was literally going tp speak with the dead, and that those who heard Him, would be resurrected with HIm ie live again(John 5:25)? Is that what Peter meant in 1 Peter 3:19 and 1 Peter 4:6 that the dead were taught the gospel? 

The only difference is that we teach that only confirmation in the Church promises the gift of the Holy Spirit, which is a promise of His constant company so long as we are righteous. What this means is that for instance those who were in danger of being washed away in a flash flood or in some other mortal danger have been warned or prompted to somehow avoid the situation as dangerous - sometimes with a voice they heard. 

Quote

I also very very much appreciate your acknowledgement of our commitment to spend a year as active participants in an LDS ward. How else could I learn what I can't experience in books? We have paid a price for that with friends and family. It is most of the time a lonely walk. Some of my family have cut off communication and we aren't embraced by all members of the ward. I would be a hypocrite if I tried to learn about Mormons from books. In fact, I have learned much in the past year about what Mormons sometimes experience. Our many Catholic neighbors and friends here do not have a historically high regard for the Mormons. That has been the case for 130-some years. It is complicated and messy - of course the majority of the Saints call it "innocent persecution," but I think underneath it all there is fault all around. If you read my article in this summer's MHA Journal you will see what I mean. And please, I have said the exact same thing about the Mennonites in our area. They are exclusive, endogamous, and both racially and religiously prejudiced. I digress. Since attending the ward the attitudes of some our neighbors towards us have changed. While not wanting to overstate it, we are now less than we were before. They simply assume we are now Mormons and have put on us all the baggage that carries in this culture. We have not dissuaded them of that because the only way I can know how it feels is to feel it.

Again, I do feel you are an authentic Christian, and your commitment to try to see things from a LDS POV speaks to your authenticity. Some of the things you have spoken about indeed show the degree to which you have immersed yourself in LDS culture - and I have not dismissed all your criticisms. I think the Church is even responding to some of these things in its change from the type of lessons for priesthood and relief society. You might recall that I asked you if you noticed a difference, but I don't think you have directly responded yet.

Quote

So now since my post last night I also have you all angry with me because I have not come to the right conclusions as of this point in our journey.  I think you will now treat me as one who doesn't treat you as exceptional and miss out on the wonderful leap we have made in other ways (for example acknowledging and advocating for you all as true Christians in the Christian family tree).  Anyway, I am saying too much. i would simply rephrase your last statement a bit. I think I find authenticity in some LDS people, but I don't think it is to be found in "the Church." I have a higher view of the LDS folks than before we started this journey and a lower view of the LDS Church. I suppose that will be equally or more offensive to you all, so I will sigh and continue on the journey.

I am not angry with you at all. I am not even offended because I think I understand that to which you speak, and have responded about it in some detail. If you do have a "higher view of the LDS folks than before", however, I don't think you can have a lower view of the LDS Church, since we are the Church. The Church is not some mono-culture as you seem to envision. It is a live and breathing membership with a myriad of viewpoints and experiences. I am not a carbon copy of Pres. Nelson, nor was I of Gordon B Hinckley. 

Quote

I have a motto in my life. It is reflected in the attachment.

Looks like a book you have written? I had no idea where I would be now when I began my journey in the Lord almost 50 years ago. The journey has brought both hardship and joy. If I had it to do over again, I don't know that I would do it, but the personal rewards in understanding our Savior have been great and deeply satisfying - even if unappreciated by others.  Servants are rarely appreciated in the world, but as you point out our Savior taught us that the greatest among us shall be the servant of all.

There is a proverb I like, it goes: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing, but is the honor of kings to search out a matter."

Cheers Phil.

Edited October 3, 2018 by RevTestament