Meerkat Posted August 22, 2018 Posted August 22, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, mfbukowski said: And so one could imagine that could be the way it is with the church as well. One admires the philosophy and decides to live by it regardless of whether or not is historically justified. Yes. Living the idea is the important thing. Knowing the doctrine, or the historical accuracy (that is hard to know in detail, as in the Priesthood or other early doctrines taught by men that we admire and believe were prophets,) can come later. Living the idea will get us where we want to go. I notice the word "could." In your particular case, it doesn't necessarily mean YOUR faith is limited to that view. I wholeheartedly believe a person can begin down the road of a philosophical idea because it tastes good. But the end of that road is conversion to the doctrine behind the philosophy. Someone on this board commented on the "death of positivism." I don't recall if it was you. If it was, it surely must have been tongue in cheek. Take Emerson's essay on Compensation, for example. It's easy to test (just as living the Gospel is.) He is not specific about Christ here. But living the philosophy brings one closer to Christ and His joy. "A perfect equity adjusts its balance in all parts of life. {Oi chusoi Dios aei enpiptousi}, The dice of God are always loaded. The world looks like a multiplication-table, or a mathematical equation, which, turn it how you will, balances itself. Take what figure you will, its exact value, nor more nor less, still returns to you. Every secret is told, every crime is punished, every virtue rewarded, every wrong redressed, in silence and certainty. What we call retribution is the universal necessity by which the whole appears wherever a part appears. If you see smoke, there must be fire. If you see a hand or a limb, you know that the trunk to which it belongs is there behind it. Every act rewards itself, or, in other words, integrates itself, in a twofold manner; first, in the thing, or in real nature; and secondly, in the circumstance, or in apparent nature. Men call the circumstance the retribution. The causal retribution is in the thing, and is seen by the soul. The retribution in the circumstance is seen by the understanding; it is inseparable from the thing, but is often spread over a long time, and so does not become distinct until after many years. The specific stripes may follow late after the offence, but they follow because they accompany it. Crime and punishment grow out of one stem. Punishment is a fruit that unsuspected ripens within the flower of the pleasure which concealed it. Cause and effect, means and ends, seed and fruit, cannot be severed; for the effect already blooms in the cause, the end preexists in the means, the fruit in the seed." (This is but an excerpt of RW Emerson's essay on compensation.) It's a wonderful essay. It's an idea that leads to living the Gospel, experiencing the fruits thereof and, after judgement for the choices one has lived by, opens the door to entrance to the Celestial Kingdom. This particular essay of Emerson's philosophy can be expressed in one verse of scripture: "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Galations 6:7 THAT'S what I call philosophy! It is THE philosophy to live by. I love the way Emerson fleshes that brief sentence out. He says, later in his essay: "All infractions of love and equity in our social relations are speedily punished. They are punished by fear. Whilst I stand in simple relations to my fellow-man, I have no displeasure in meeting him. We meet as water meets water, or as two currents of air mix, with perfect diffusion and interpretation of nature. But as soon as there is any departure from simplicity, and attempt at halfness, or good for me that us not good for him, my neighbor feels the wrong; he shrinks from me as far as I have shrunk from him; his eyes no longer seek mine; there us war between us; there is hate in him and fear in me." A scripture that circumscribes this whole philosophy, without expanding on the consequence of living it half way as Emerson did above, is John 13:34-35: " A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." I agree that iving a good philosophy, in the absence of even knowing about Christ, will ultimately bring us to Him and His vast compensations. Do the thing. Know the doctrine. Edited August 22, 2018 by Meerkat 1
Peppermint Patty Posted August 22, 2018 Posted August 22, 2018 10 hours ago, Duncan said: is he active in the Church? Yes David is active in Church. As far as I know there has never been a time when he has stopped being an active member. I believe he has tried to distance himself from most of the online apologetics as he feels the polemics ultimately causes more harm than good. 3
clarkgoble Posted August 22, 2018 Posted August 22, 2018 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Peppermint Patty said: Yes David is active in Church. As far as I know there has never been a time when he has stopped being an active member. I believe he has tried to distance himself from most of the online apologetics as he feels the polemics ultimately causes more harm than good. I think there's definitely something to that. I think back in FARMS heyday they'd have had far more influence had they not been so combative and polemical. I understand the drive to do that, but I think that from a purely rhetorical perspective being above the fray is much more conducive for persuasion. I think it'd have also tightened up the writing and arguments as well. 11 hours ago, Peppermint Patty said: My husband and I are Facebook friends with David. David just started a new job as Managing Director of Salt Lake Community College's 10 campuses and over 60,000 students. Financially, it was a job he couldn't pass up. He's uncomfortable discussing it, but he is now one of the highest paid State employees. We couldn't be more happy for him. He has several duties now and one of the most important is that he is also the Director of Prison Education for the State of Utah. Good for him. Edited August 22, 2018 by clarkgoble 1
Glenn101 Posted August 22, 2018 Posted August 22, 2018 20 hours ago, mfbukowski said: I confirm those historical beliefs through faith and testimony in the same way I confirm the significance of those beliefs: that the Book of Mormon is the word of God, and that the atonement is a real force in my life,- also through faith and testimony, the ONLY way they can be confirmed. So, you are a TBM after all??? ☺️ That to me is the definition of a TBM anyway. My faith and testimony require that the Book of Mormon be historically authentic, i.e. that there were Nephites (and Jaredites). My faith and testimony do not require that those things be proven. I believe that they will be at some point in time, but probably not before Christ returns. Glenn 2
mfbukowski Posted August 22, 2018 Posted August 22, 2018 6 hours ago, Peppermint Patty said: Yes David is active in Church. As far as I know there has never been a time when he has stopped being an active member. I believe he has tried to distance himself from most of the online apologetics as he feels the polemics ultimately causes more harm than good. That was also the impression I got from some very limited interactions with him.
mfbukowski Posted August 22, 2018 Posted August 22, 2018 7 hours ago, Glenn101 said: So, you are a TBM after all??? ☺️ That to me is the definition of a TBM anyway. My faith and testimony require that the Book of Mormon be historically authentic, i.e. that there were Nephites (and Jaredites). My faith and testimony do not require that those things be proven. I believe that they will be at some point in time, but probably not before Christ returns. Glenn Works for me!
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