LDS Church May Be Facing More Lawsuits Over Sexual Abuse And Inaction

[ALarson]

19 hours ago, Calm said:

I have had two bishops excommunicated for adultery, one serving, one former, and there were no announcements, so it sounds like it is the choice of the leaders to do that...granted everyone knew anyway.

Excommunicated for apostasy if they are attempting to persuade other members to join them ....I hope they would announce it.  There was a member who was excommunicated for apostasy in Canada while we were there and there was no announcement, but he was teaching anti mormon classes at the local Evangelical church, hadn't been going to church for awhile and I heard about that a few years later, so I guess they figured it wasn't having an impact on Church members (and there was tragedy in the family so perhaps they made an exception as they didn't want to add to his pain).

Public announcement of excommunication (in the past or present) people who commit dangerous crimes, I have seen that.  And unless there are ones we don't know about, it does appear excommunication of Seventies or above still is publicly announced.

Excommunication is usually announced in ward council (or at least to those leaders who need to be aware of any discipline....even disfellowshipment) from my experience.

I have only been in a ward where an excommunication was publicly announced to the congregation (adults only as they dismissed the youth and children to go to their classes after Sacrament meeting).  It was announced that our ward clerk had been excommunicated for embezzling tithing funds.  This was done because he had committed a sin against the members of the ward (stole our money).

Even though other excommunications are not publicly announced, I have found that most learn about it through word of mouth.  

[smac97]

On 4/9/2018 at 8:16 AM, stemelbow said:

Kind of scary to think he confessed all his sins which presumably included his mistreatment of girls and women before he was MTC president and yet the leadership put him in the role as MTC president. 

The key word here being "presumably."  We don't know what he confessed to.

On 4/9/2018 at 8:16 AM, stemelbow said:

It might be the kind of thing Mr. Vernon is thinking about here. 

Perhaps.

On 4/9/2018 at 8:16 AM, stemelbow said:

It may be that he continued his predatory behavior and might have even confessed more later on, but they continued to build him up and give him positions of power over women and girls. 

If we build on your presumption, yes.  It's a mighty big presumption.  Consider these remarks by his son:

Quote

Greg Bishop, Bishop’s son, said Wednesday that his father’s admission to police was not entirely at odds with what the elderly man had recounted in private conversations. He told his son and police, Greg Bishop said, “that there was no sexual contact between them, no rape and that she exposed her breasts.”

Greg Bishop, a Park City-based attorney, said he supports the #MeToo movement and believes people who use positions of power for their own sexual gratification “should be held to account.”

But he argues that his father’s statements in the taped conversation are being misconstrued. The accuser wants to paint the elder Bishop as the “Harvey Weinstein of the Mormon church,” he said, a label his father agrees on the recording might be appropriate.

“But it just isn’t the same,” Greg Bishop said, pointing out that his father does not describe or admit to any physical acts in the tape other than the back rub he admits to giving another female missionary.

He said his father’s heightened sense of guilt led him to label himself as an addict for conduct others would not consider predatory.

“The way he uses the term, ‘sex addiction,’ and the way she uses it are different,” the son said. “Throughout his life, [my father] has struggled with … maintaining pure thoughts.”

It was a case of miscommunication, Greg Bishop said, pointing out that the taped conversation happened two days after his father underwent heart surgery.

Bishop’s own descriptions of his misconduct — other than the back rub — are vague or do not involve assaults.

We're still in a very vague and gray area as to what Bro. Bishop has admitted to doing.

The rest of the above article is worth reading, BTW.  Lots of interesting information.

On 4/9/2018 at 8:16 AM, stemelbow said:

It is precisely the opposite of zero tolerance to put known offenders in positions of power. 

I think you are making very large leaps here.  Characterizing Bro. Bishop as a "known offender" is unsupported by competent evidence, and only a lot of guesswork and speculation of the most hostile sort.

On 4/9/2018 at 8:16 AM, stemelbow said:

That's pretty scary stuff--it's great that Sister Denson is helping to bring this type of crap to light.  

Again, you are building on speculation and guesswork, that's all.

Thanks,

-Smac

[ALarson]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

I think you are making very large leaps here.  Characterizing Bro. Bishop as a "known offender" is unsupported by competent evidence, and only a lot of guesswork and speculation of the most hostile sort.

From what I have read, I think that Bishop is a "known offender".  There are statements from several supporting the occurrence of his repeated abuses over the years and in different jobs & locations.  We also have his own words admitting he's done this.  

[smac97]

1 minute ago, ALarson said:

From what I have read, I think that Bishop is a "known offender". 

He was a "known offender" in the 1970s and 1980s?

1 minute ago, ALarson said:

There are statements from several supporting the occurrence of his repeated abuses over the years and in different jobs & locations. 

We do?  CFR, please.  Please also clarify what the Church knew about these allegations.

1 minute ago, ALarson said:

We also have his own words admitting he's done this.  

We do?  Where?  CFR, please.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Marginal Gains]

16 hours ago, smac97 said:

He was a "known offender" in the 1970s and 1980s?

We do?  CFR, please.  Please also clarify what the Church knew about these allegations.

We do?  Where?  CFR, please.

Thanks,

-Smac

Here’s a good summary:

https://medium.com/@davidscoville/timeline-of-the-joseph-bishop-sexual-abuse-scandal-77f39be1ef3a

[ALarson]

17 hours ago, smac97 said:

He was a "known offender" in the 1970s and 1980s?

We do?  CFR, please.  Please also clarify what the Church knew about these allegations.

We do?  Where?  CFR, please.

Thanks,

-Smac

Ha!  Marginal Gains beat me to it...I came here to post that link which is a good overview of the timeline.  

Here's the pertinent info regarding what took place prior to Bishop being called to serve over the MTC:

Quote

 

Prior to 1972

Joseph Bishop, while in an LDS bishopric, is involved with sexually abusive activity of which he admitted in the Dec. 2, 2017 recording:

Survivor: How many other women are there?

Joseph Bishop: It’s not that there’s so many other women, it’s just the two that were there [at the MTC], I remember one when I was in the Bishopric.

- Dec 2017 recording of interview between Survivor and Bishop

1972

Joseph Bishop is appointed President of Weber State College. During his tenure, Assistant Dean Jan Tyler files a lawsuit regarding equal pay. The lawsuit is settled out of court.

I felt that he was a person without a sense of morality, of what was right and wrong. He was almost amoral.

- Jan L. Tyler, Assistant Dean at Weber State College from 1971–1974

“Joseph Bishop at the 1978 Weber State College graduation.” — Image by: Weber State University

1979–1982

Joseph Bishop is called as a mission president to the Argentina Buenos Aires North Mission. While a mission president, he confesses his past sexual transgressions, including the incident while he was in a bishopric, to Church General Authority, Robert E. Wells.

Robert E. Wells

Survivor: You were never called into a church council, church court, even after you confessed to Elder Wells, there was never a fellowship, nothing?

Joseph Bishop: No I hadn’t confessed all those things before Elder Wells, but wanted to redo it. I struggled to make sure that everything was taken care of.

- Dec 2017 recording of interview between Survivor and Bishop

1983

Bishop is called as the Missionary Training Center (MTC) President from 1983–1986.

 

What I was referring to when I stated we have him confessing in his own words, I was speaking about the tape recording made.  I agree that this was more recent.  As far as I know, no one is doubting that he was involved in a pattern of behavior of sexual abuse.

[smac97]

8 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

Quote

He was a "known offender" in the 1970s and 1980s?

We do?  CFR, please.  Please also clarify what the Church knew about these allegations.

We do?  Where?  CFR, please.

Here’s a good summary:

https://medium.com/@davidscoville/timeline-of-the-joseph-bishop-sexual-abuse-scandal-77f39be1ef3a

Helpful information.  Thanks.

However, I still do not understand your allegation that he was a "known offender" int he 1970s and 1980s.

There are two vague references to misconduct from the 1970s.  But we don't know what they were, and we don't know if the Church was aware of them at the time.  That seems to be an assumption on your part.

He confessed something to Elder Wells sometime between 1979 and 1982 (when he was a mission president), but we don't know what.

Denson made allegations about Bishop to her YSA bishop around 1987, but he did not tell the Church or law enforcement about it.  And this bishop denies arranging any appointment between Denson and Elder Asay, and the Church has no record of any such meeting.

There are allegations from Denson that she made "multiples reports" to the Church about Bishop from 1998.  The Church, however, reports that they were not aware of such allegations until 2010.

So the "known offender" label seems less than apt.  

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

13 minutes ago, ALarson said:

What I was referring to when I stated we have him confessing in his own words, I was speaking about the tape recording made. 

Confessing to what, though?  That remains fairly opaque and vague.  

13 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I agree that this was more recent.  As far as I know, no one is doubting that he was involved in a pattern of behavior of sexual abuse.

But what does "pattern of behavior of sexual abuse" mean?  

Moreover, how much did the LDS Church know, such that the "known offender" appellation is appropriate?

Thanks,

-Smac

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Confessing to what, though?  That remains fairly opaque and vague.  

But what does "pattern of behavior of sexual abuse" mean?  

Moreover, how much did the LDS Church know, such that the "known offender" appellation is appropriate?

Thanks,

-Smac

I suppose we could ask what does molest mean (which might bring back memories of the famed what does "is" mean), but on the tape he certainly admitted to molesting a girl specifically.  

Quote

Survivor 1: Do you remember the other girl with me? The other one you were grooming? Her name was [redacted]

Joseph Bishop: [redacted][redacted]

Survivor 1: Yes, that’s her last name

Joseph Bishop: I remember [redacted]

Survivor 1: Did you molest her?

Joseph Bishop: Yes

I don't think his son is being honest by trying to say he did not admit to anything like this.  he clearly did.  

Edited April 11, 2018 by stemelbow

[smac97]

5 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I suppose we could ask what does molest mean

We could also ask about the reliability of the recorded confession.  Was it coerced?  Was Bishop lucid and in full command of his faculties?  How many of his confessions were prompted?  The risible terms used in the recording, like "molest" (pp. 34, 36, 41), and "rape" (pp. 30, 33, 39, 41, 43, 51, 53, 61, 63) are used by Denson.  

Bishop mentions "molested" (p. 35) in the context of sister missionaries have flashbacks of molestation prior to entering the MTC.  He uses the word "rape" (p. 53) to deny that he had done it.

To be sure, Bishop makes some admissions to some misconduct, but we don't really know what.  He also made some admissions to BYU police, but he associates that misconduct with Denson, whereas Denson denies that the admitted misconduct involved her.

5 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

(which might bring back memories of the famed what does "is" mean), but on the tape he certainly admitted to molesting a girl specifically.  

He does?  Where?

5 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I don't think his son is being honest by trying to say he did not admit to anything like this.  he clearly did.  

He did admit to some misconduct, but I don't think he has "clearly" admitted much.

Thanks,

-Smac

[JulieM]

14 minutes ago, smac97 said:

To be sure, Bishop makes some admissions to some misconduct,

.....

He did admit to some misconduct, but I don't think he has "clearly" admitted much.

So, it’s ok if he molested someone as long as it wasn’t MUCH molesting?  Or, it’s Ok if he sexually harassed or abused women as long as it wasn’t that much. 

Next you’ll be defending him by saying that it’s ok because he only raped her a little and didn’t complete the act.

Edited April 11, 2018 by JulieM

[rongo]

10 minutes ago, JulieM said:

So, it’s ok if he molested someone as long as it wasn’t MUCH molesting?  Or, it’s Ok if he sexually harassed or abused women as long as it wasn’t that much. 

Next you’ll be defending him by saying that it’s ok because he only raped her a little and didn’t complete the act.

The thing is that it is impossible to determine exactly what the extent of any of it was. I read the transcript, and I don't think we can take what he said to Denson to the bank as literal. She led him quite a bit, and his agreeing with her seemed to be conditioned (age, mental capacity, personality, etc.). His actual words --- what trials will focus on --- aren't a smoking gun. 

I don't think anyone is saying "It was just a little bit." He hasn't actually admitted to anything further than frisky back rubs, bad thoughts, etc. His confessions (also vague and nebulous) may have been about these things, too. I have known men who are terrified for their salvation and confess to leaders over decades about things that don't go beyond controlling thoughts. Yet, they feel just as bad as though they were guilty of horrific, egregious things. Bishop strikes me this way in the transcript. 

[ALarson]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

But what does "pattern of behavior of sexual abuse" mean?  

Really smac?  You need to ask that regarding this case?

Read over the timeline to see when the accusations began and the confessions took place.

[ALarson]

Just now, rongo said:

The thing is that it is impossible to determine exactly what the extent of any of it was. I read the transcript, and I don't think we can take what he said to Denson to the bank as literal.

Denson is not the only person or witness or victim involved.  Others have come forward and have made accusations and statements regarding his behavior in the past.

[rongo]

Just now, ALarson said:

Really smac?  You need to ask that regarding this case?

Read over the timeline to see when the accusations began and the confessions took place.

Well, I move that the deadwood in the rap sheet (intended to "pile on" and give an impression of overwhelming volume and incidents) be culled and trimmed.

Things like:

"Joseph Bishop is appointed President of Weber State College. During his tenure, Assistant Dean Jan Tyler files a lawsuit regarding equal pay. The lawsuit is settled out of court."

What's the abuse allegation there?

[ALarson]

2 minutes ago, rongo said:

Well, I move that the deadwood in the rap sheet (intended to "pile on" and give an impression of overwhelming volume and incidents) be culled and trimmed.

Things like:

"Joseph Bishop is appointed President of Weber State College. During his tenure, Assistant Dean Jan Tyler files a lawsuit regarding equal pay. The lawsuit is settled out of court."

What's the abuse allegation there?

There's also this:

Quote

 

2010

Another woman (Survivor 2), reports to local church leaders about being sexually abused by Joseph Bishop, also while he was MTC president. In an updated statement, March 23, 2018, the Church stated that in 2010, she was provided “emotional support as well as professional counseling services. Mr. Bishop’s local ecclesiastical leaders were contacted and they confronted him with her claims, which he denied, and local leaders did not feel they could pursue church discipline for Mr. Bishop.”

Survivor 2 was referenced in the December recording:

Survivor 1: Do you remember the other girl with me? The other one you were grooming? Her name was [redacted]

Joseph Bishop: [redacted][redacted]

Survivor 1: Yes, that’s her last name

Joseph Bishop: I remember [redacted]

Survivor 1: Did you molest her?

Joseph Bishop: Yes

 

 

[ALarson]

5 minutes ago, rongo said:

Well, I move that the deadwood in the rap sheet (intended to "pile on" and give an impression of overwhelming volume and incidents) be culled and trimmed.

Things like:

"Joseph Bishop is appointed President of Weber State College. During his tenure, Assistant Dean Jan Tyler files a lawsuit regarding equal pay. The lawsuit is settled out of court."

What's the abuse allegation there?

And, here's more info regarding Tyler's claims:

https://thoughtsonthingsandstuff.com/former-dean-of-women-at-weber-speaks-out-about-joseph-l-bishop/

 

[rongo]

Just now, ALarson said:

There's also this:

What does that mean, though? You are assuming that it means XYZ, and that this was exactly what Bishop had in mind. 

What, exactly, did he mean when he simply answered, "Yes" to Denson's leading question?

It would have been helpful if Denson had pressed for specifics to get that in writing (and on audio). But she never does. 

That's what the whole interview is like. 

And, it's full of her leading him, and he giving generally very short acquiescence like "Yes." Things like "Do you remember the other girl with me? The other one you were grooming?"

[rongo]

2 minutes ago, ALarson said:

And, here's more info regarding Tyler's claims:

https://thoughtsonthingsandstuff.com/former-dean-of-women-at-weber-speaks-out-about-joseph-l-bishop/

I must be overlooking the sexual abuse/assault stuff in this. All I can see are complaints about him being misogynistic, chauvenistic, arrogant, back-stabbing, cutthroat, etc. as far as a work environment. Even the section that sounded promising ("The Amoral Gaslighter") was underwhelming. 

There is no sexual assault/sexual abuse/grooming stuff in Tyler's claims that I can see. 

[Calm]

Ignore if already done:

 

Prior to 1972

Joseph Bishop, while in an LDS bishopric, is involved with sexually abusive activity of which he admitted in the Dec. 2, 2017 recording:

Survivor: How many other women are there?

Joseph Bishop: It’s not that there’s so many other women, it’s just the two that were there [at the MTC], I remember one when I was in the Bishopric.

- Dec 2017 recording of interview between Survivor and Bishop

This confession of what happened in Florida was a woman in a swimsuit suggestively flirting with him...sexually abusive sounds like a stretch here

The sister missionary...no details given...abusive might or might not, no details 

Joseph Bishop is called as a mission president to the Argentina Buenos Aires North Mission. While a mission president, he confesses his past sexual transgressions, including the incident while he was in a bishopric, to Church General Authority, Robert E. Wells.

no details given to what he confessed to

.

 

[ALarson]

I'm not going to debate Joseph Bishop's past behavior here....again.  That was already done extensively on earlier threads here:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70376-kutv-report-reveals-how-the-lds-church-responded-to-mtc-sex-scandal/

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70407-accuser-of-joseph-bishop-files-suit/

As far as I know, nothing new has come out since these discussions took place regarding this case.  If so, that's what I'd be interested in seeing.  

 

Edited April 11, 2018 by ALarson

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Denson is not the only person or witness or victim involved.  Others have come forward and have made accusations and statements regarding his behavior in the past.

One other for sexual as far as we know, with no details, but she is likely the one he asked to expose her breast

For Tyler, he was a jerk that had hangups about working with lesbians, apparently...but no sex stuff

The MTC employee is anonymous and worked there after Bishop and can attest to a room in the basement that might have been used exactly as claimed to get extra rest, prepare talks, iirc.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

28 minutes ago, rongo said:

The thing is that it is impossible to determine exactly what the extent of any of it was. I read the transcript, and I don't think we can take what he said to Denson to the bank as literal. She led him quite a bit, and his agreeing with her seemed to be conditioned (age, mental capacity, personality, etc.). His actual words --- what trials will focus on --- aren't a smoking gun. 

I don't think anyone is saying "It was just a little bit." He hasn't actually admitted to anything further than frisky back rubs, bad thoughts, etc. His confessions (also vague and nebulous) may have been about these things, too. I have known men who are terrified for their salvation and confess to leaders over decades about things that don't go beyond controlling thoughts. Yet, they feel just as bad as though they were guilty of horrific, egregious things. Bishop strikes me this way in the transcript. 

I agree with you up to the last bit.  He is too eager to blame others for his own shortcomings, especially his first wife, but also his second with their divorce...it was all her issues that led to the divorce.  I think he is more likely the type to downplay what he did rather than over admit.

But imo the transcript has a huge amount of downplaying so it is useless to demonstrate he assaulted anyone.

[rongo]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

I agree with you up to the last bit.  He is too eager to blame others for his own shortcomings, especially his first wife, but also his second with their divorce...it was all her issues that led to the divorce.  I think he is more likely the type to downplay what he did rather than over admit.

That's the point, though. "I think he is more likely the type to downplay what he did" because he blamed former wives. It's supposition and assumption. That doesn't fit the standard of reasonable doubt (or whatever the standard would be) when you're talking about very serious charges with very serious consequences. No matter how big a jerk he may have been.

But imo the transcript has a huge amount of downplaying so it is useless to demonstrate he assaulted anyone.

Completely agree. I also find it to be useless from the standpoint of proving the claims beyond a reasonable doubt. A good attorney would pick it apart. I don't know if the church wants to avoid "winning the battle, but losing the war," though, which is why it often settles things like this. The Church may want to go to trial, simply because the PR hit is there whether it's settled or not. Winning the case, and having people use it to smear the Church might be a wash compared to settling and having people use it to smear the Church.

[JulieM]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

 But imo the transcript has a huge amount of downplaying so it is useless to demonstrate he assaulted anyone.

I disagree that it’s “useless”.  I think it’s very damaging and corroborates what the 2nd witness claims (unless I’m confused on this).  He admits he molestered her.

It’s also damaging when he starts trying to confirm who Denson is with his questions (ie. “Oh, were you the one that had a boob job?” “Oh, were you the one with a biker friend?”) like he was trying to remember which victim she was.

He also admits that there was a room in the basement of the MTC as she described it.

He admits he’d be the “Harry Weinstein of Mormonism” if people knew.

He admits to confessing inappropriate behavior to his priesthood leaders and claims he’s a sex addict.

I can’t imagine that a member of a jury listening to all this would find it “useless” information.

 

Edited April 11, 2018 by JulieM