Conference Surprises

[Marginal Gains]

6 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

What is the difference between a “revelation” and an “announcement”?

 

6 hours ago, JAHS said:

A revelation is when God communicates to his prophet about some new doctrine or thing He wants the prophet or the church to do and it is sometimes recorded as scripture such as in the Doctrine and Covenants, but it doesn't always have to be recorded as scripture. 
An announcement is just letting the church members know something new is happening like where new temples are going to be being built.
Some revelation from God to His prophets probably did happen to help him decide where to build temples or to change programs in the church.

That doesn’t really clear it up. If a Prophet doesn’t claim an announcement is a revelation, does that mean it isn’t a revelation?

[JAHS]

42 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

 

That doesn’t really clear it up. If a Prophet doesn’t claim an announcement is a revelation, does that mean it isn’t a revelation?

Revelation is receiving inspiration from God to do something. It could happen to any member of the church for their own stewardships.
The Prophet however can receive revelation for the entire church regarding new doctrine or programs or anything relating to church government.
He doesn't have to say it is a revelation from God.  We can just assume that he receives confirmation from God through the spirit that what he has decided to do is God's will.
It's not like he hears a voice from heaven saying "this is God speaking and this is what I want you to do." That might happen sometimes, but usually when they think something needs to be done it has been studied
and researched and discussed among the leaders; they make a decision about it and take their decision to God through prayer and receive confirmation through the Holy Ghost that what they have decided to do is God's will.
The entire process can be described as revelation, but we don't need the prophet to tell us that he has received a new revelation; they work by this process every day for all decisions that are made.
You are trying to assign a specific definition to the word "revelation". Revelation comes in different forms and different ways. 

 

[Marginal Gains]

Just now, JAHS said:

Revelation is receiving inspiration from God to do something. It could happen to any member of the church for their own stewardships.
The Prophet however can receive revelation for the entire church regarding new doctrine or programs or anything relating to church government.
He doesn't have to say it is a revelation from God.  We can just assume that he receives confirmation from God through the spirit that what he has decided to do is God's will.
It's not like he hears a voice from heaven saying "this is God speaking and this is what I want you to do." That might happen sometimes, but usually when they think something needs to be done it has been studied
and researched and discussed among the leaders; they make a decision about it and take their decision to God through prayer and receive confirmation through the Holy Ghost that what they have decided to do is God's will.
The entire process can be described as revelation, but we don't need the prophet to tell us that he has received a new revelation; they work by this process every day for all decisions that are made.
You are trying to assign a specific definition to the word "revelation". Revelation comes in different forms and different ways. 

 

So, announcements are revelations.

[JAHS]

36 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

So, announcements are revelations.

Yes they can have gone through the revelatory process until they are announced to the general membership.  But, for example, reporting what the membership numbers are in General conference can be an announcement but not considered a "revelation". It's just relaying information. 

At the beginning of this thread when I said that there were some surprising revelations at General Conference, I mostly meant it in the sense that some new information was revealed to the membership, even though revelation was most likely involved in the new things that were announced. 

Edited April 27, 2018 by JAHS

[Marginal Gains]

On 4/28/2018 at 12:15 AM, JAHS said:

Yes they can have gone through the revelatory process until they are announced to the general membership.  But, for example, reporting what the membership numbers are in General conference can be an announcement but not considered a "revelation". It's just relaying information. 

At the beginning of this thread when I said that there were some surprising revelations at General Conference, I mostly meant it in the sense that some new information was revealed to the membership, even though revelation was most likely involved in the new things that were announced. 

Apart from the various statistics, audit type stuff, can you think of anything else that was delivered over the pulpit that wouldn’t count as ‘revelation’?

[JAHS]

27 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

Apart from the various statistics, audit type stuff, can you think of anything else that was delivered over the pulpit that wouldn’t count as ‘revelation’?

I think you and I are going on different definitions of what revelation is.  Revelaion can come in different ways and for different purposes. Here is the definition from the church website

Revelation is communication from God to His children. This guidance comes through various channels according to the needs and circumstances of individuals, families, and the Church as a whole. When the Lord reveals His will to the Church, He speaks through His prophet. Prophets are the only people who can receive revelation for the Church, but they are not the only people who can receive revelation. According to our faithfulness, we can receive revelation to help us with our specific personal needs, responsibilities, and questions and to help us strengthen our testimony.
The scriptures tell of different types of revelation, such as visions, dreams, and visitations by angels. Through such channels, the Lord has restored His gospel in the latter days and revealed many truths. However, most revelations to leaders and members of the Church come through the whisperings of the Holy Ghost.
Quiet spiritual promptings may not seem as spectacular as visions or angelic visitations, but they are just as powerful and lasting and life changing. The witness of the Holy Ghost makes an impression on the soul that is more significant than anything we can see or hear. Through such revelations, we will receive lasting strength to stay true to the gospel and help others do the same.

Going on this definition most everything spoken in General Conference is based on revelation received by those who spoke it.  Many things I have said over the pulpit in church could also be considered based on revelation that I received while preparing my talk.  

[Marginal Gains]

6 hours ago, JAHS said:

Going on this definition most everything spoken in General Conference is based on revelation received by those who spoke it.  Many things I have said over the pulpit in church could also be considered based on revelation that I received while preparing my talk.  

Quote

 

The editing of Elder Packer’s talk introduces two significant changes:

1. The Proclamation on the Family:

Speaking live on Sunday morning, Elder Packer said of the Proclamation on the Family, a church statement released in 1995 that innovated theology on the essential and eternal nature of gender roles and has informed much of the Church’s political activity on same-sex marriage: “It qualifies according to the definition as a revelation and it would do well that members of the church read and follow it.” This line has been deleted from the newly-published text version. Instead, the following sentence has been inserted: “It is a guide that members of the Church would do well to read and follow.”

The deletion of Elder Packer’s phrase characterizing the “Proclamation” as a “revelation” is significant to Church members who look to the words of the General Authorities as truth revealed directly from God.

2. On the nature of homosexuality:

Speaking live on Sunday morning, Elder Packer said: “Some suppose that they were preset and cannot overcome what they feel are inborn tendencies toward the impure and unnatural. Not so! Why would Heavenly Father do that to anyone? Remember, He is our Heavenly Father.”

The newly published text version reads as follows: “Some suppose that they were present and cannot overcome what they feel are inborn temptations toward the impure and unnatural. Not so! Remember, God is our Heavenly Father.”

 

http://religiondispatches.org/controversial-lds-conference-talk-edited-for-publication/

Which version of Elder Packers talk was based on revelation - the one spoken at the pulpit, or the one that become written?

 

Edited May 3, 2018 by Marginal Gains

[JAHS]

31 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

http://religiondispatches.org/controversial-lds-conference-talk-edited-for-publication/

Which version of Elder Packers talk was based on revelation - the one spoken at the pulpit, or the one that become written?

 

The sentence about the proclamation was not inserted, it was always there; just the part about it being a revelation was removed, but you can still hear him say that in the video version of the talk that is online at the General conference page.
The second one about homosexuality is also still in the video version.

Nice try in  your attempt to bait me into something you could slam me on, but Like I said "most" everything spoken in conference is based on revelation. Perhaps President Hinckley had some revelation about this also and he being the head prophet was responsible for what is said and therefore asked for those changes to be made.  God doesn't take over a prophet's brain and make him do and say everything perfectly all the time; that is why we have 15 of them leading the church and making sure about what is and is not God's will. 

[Marginal Gains]

1 minute ago, JAHS said:

The sentence about the proclamation was not inserted, it was always there; just the part about it being a revelation was removed, but you can still hear him say that in the video version of the talk that is online at the General conference page.
The second one about homosexuality is also still in the video version.

Nice try in  your attempt to bait me into something you could slam me on, but Like I said "most" everything spoken in conference is based on revelation. Perhaps President Hinckley had some revelation about this also and he being the head prophet was responsible for what is said and therefore asked for those changes to be made.  God doesn't take over a prophet's brain and make him do and say everything perfectly all the time; that is why we have 15 of them leading the church and making sure about what is and is not God's will. 

So which version (pulpit/written) is based on revelation?

[JAHS]

30 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

So which version (pulpit/written) is based on revelation?

I don't know. We would have to ask them if we could, but I would say ultimately the written version, since it will most likely be read rather than the video watched. JMO 

[Marginal Gains]

4 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I don't know. We would have to ask them if we could, but I would say ultimately the written version, since it will most likely be read rather than the video watched. JMO 

In which case the proclamation on the family is not revelation, in your opinion.

[JAHS]

3 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

In which case the proclamation on the family is not revelation, in your opinion.

No, in my opinion it is revelation, but my opinion doesn't count for the whole church. 
Everyone will agree that the contents are based on revelation received by the church leaders,
but it is not "A" revelation in the sense that it would be considered for inclusion in our scriptures.
At least not yet. 
 

[Marginal Gains]

20 minutes ago, JAHS said:

No, in my opinion it is revelation, but my opinion doesn't count for the whole church. 
Everyone will agree that the contents are based on revelation received by the church leaders,
but it is not "A" revelation in the sense that it would be considered for inclusion in our scriptures.
At least not yet. 
 

So you’re saying that when Elder Packer stated the Proclamation was revelation, that was based on revelation. But that when his talk was amended to remove his claim about it being revelation and say instead that the Proclamation was a guide, that was also based on revelation. But also that based on revelation doesn’t mean A revelation...

Phew, I’m struggling to keep up with all your zig zagging.

Edited May 3, 2018 by Marginal Gains

[JAHS]

8 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

So you’re saying that when Elder Packer stated the Proclamation was revelation, that was based on revelation. But that when his talk was amended to remove his claim about it being revelation and say instead that the Proclamation was a guide, that was also based on revelation. But also that based on revelation doesn’t mean a revelation...

Phew, I’m struggling to keep up with all your zig zagging.

And I am struggling with your obtuse behavior.  I already described to you the different forms of revelation.
Elder Packer believed it qualified as "A" revelation. Apparently he was wrong and it was corrected. End of story. 

 

[Marginal Gains]

10 minutes ago, JAHS said:

And I am struggling with your obtuse behavior.  I already described to you the different forms of revelation.
Elder Packer believed it qualified as "A" revelation. Apparently he was wrong and it was corrected. End of story. 

 

Right, so you’re now saying the Proclamation isn’t A revelation. Got it.

The other thing worth noting is that (from your perspective) the written version of conference talks, trump the actual conference talk. Which I find interesting when the Conference talks are autocued (and therefore already written). Why not check them before they’re delivered?

Edited May 3, 2018 by Marginal Gains

[Jeanne]

39 minutes ago, Marginal Gains said:

So you’re saying that when Elder Packer stated the Proclamation was revelation, that was based on revelation. But that when his talk was amended to remove his claim about it being revelation and say instead that the Proclamation was a guide, that was also based on revelation. But also that based on revelation doesn’t mean A revelation...

Phew, I’m struggling to keep up with all your zig zagging.

I am so confused.  For years we have debated here on the Proclamation as to it's being revelation..In my disagreements...I was always told it was a revelation.  Sometimes I see in my head members of the church hitting their heads against a wall.  Round and round they go...who to believe if not an apostle?

Edited May 3, 2018 by Jeanne

[nuclearfuels]

If you thought April 2018 Conference had surprises, just wait till the Conference when BSA and Singles Wards are dropped.