SamuelTheLamanite Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) Truth is subjective and everything is relative. We Mormons learn the truth with our spiritual senses. The Book of Mormon is true for us, but it is not necessarily true for others. God is real for most people, but not real for atheists. It turns out a scientist is now arguing the truth is how we perceive it. For Lanza our world comes into existence at the time we are born. We humans can perceive electrons as both particles and waves. Which is it? What if the same is true for forces like gravity? What if gravity can be many things? It's all just perception. For Lanza all living things on Earth are a superorganism perceiving gravity and other forces the same way, but space aliens may perceive gravity as something completely different. So no, there are no objective facts, everything is relative. We may never know the true nature of the Universe because we humans are limited to one point of view. Only a God can know the true nature of the universe. Edited February 23, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite 1
SamuelTheLamanite Posted February 23, 2018 Author Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) The Big Bang, Evolution, and other observable "facts" may be completely wrong. For me Adam and Eve are the first humans on Earth, and there was no death before the Fall. I know my beliefs contradict all scientific observations, but then again our brain isn't perfect. Edited February 23, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite
mfbukowski Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) Yawn. This guy should have been studying philosophy. Philosophers have known that for 150 years. So what else is new. Having a good day? Edited February 23, 2018 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 19 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: The Big Bang, Evolution, and other observable "facts" may be completely wrong. For me Adam and Eve are the first humans on Earth, and there was no death before the Fall. I know my beliefs contradict all scientific observations, but then again our brain isn't perfect. The glory of God is intelligence namely life and Truth. The life that started life we call our heavenly father. Without intelligence there is no existence. I thought everybody knew that. After all it's in our scriptures Words are only verbal descriptions that do not capture reality and never can.
SamuelTheLamanite Posted February 23, 2018 Author Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: The glory of God is intelligence namely life and Truth. The life that started life we call our heavenly father. Without intelligence there is no existence. I thought everybody knew that. After all it's in our scriptures Words are only verbal descriptions that do not capture reality and never can. Very true! We fallible humans are clueless about reality. What is true for me may not be true for you. What is true for you may not be true for others. For me, science contradicts religion. It is my truth, and no one else is going to take it away. Evolution, Big Bang, microbiology, astronomy are a subjective truths, for me only God knows the real truth. The only source for real truth is revelation which is found in the scriptures. We cannot trust our observations, therefore we must get our truth from the scriptures. Edited February 23, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite
Maidservant Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 The world is a program and constructed from data. In my own understanding, I've come so far to accept that it is our bodies (avatars) that are generating the world. I'm still thinking through it, though. There is no such thing as nature. It's all technology. It's all artifact--not only created, but built.
mfbukowski Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 8 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Very true! We fallible humans are clueless about reality. What is true for me may not be true for you. What is true for you may not be true for others. For me, science contradicts religion. It is my truth, and no one else is going to take it away. Evolution, Big Bang, microbiology, astronomy are a subjective truths, for me only God knows the real truth. The only source for real truth is revelation which is found in the scriptures. We cannot trust our observations, therefore we must get our truth from the scriptures. You need to understand that science is the truth that all see and can verify and is in that way "multi-subjective" or "intersubjective". Because you see the same chair others do, clearly that chair is not "subjective". You conflate "TRUTH" with "REALITY" Only God knows "things as they are" and can share them with us through direct experience - or private revelation through feelings of peace etc. The minute we put that into words, it is distorted. "Truth" only applies to linguistic sentences and THAT is where relativity enters the picture. Lanza actually contradicts himself by saying that "Truth" is relative and then stating that the principle "Truth is relative" IS the "truth" of "things as they are" We can only KNOW things as humans can know them- by defintion. Two eyes two ears, smell touch- all inputs to one brain/spirit Guess what? we all have that equipment and we all see that way- THE WAY GOD- who has a body like ours -ALSO sees the world GOD is the source of life which defines the way we see the world. WE, as gods in embryo have the same kind of intelligence as GOD because our bodies are the same and our intelligence is the same I really don't have more to say to you because I know from previous experience you will not see this. 1
mfbukowski Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 17 minutes ago, Maidservant said: The world is a program and constructed from data. In my own understanding, I've come so far to accept that it is our bodies (avatars) that are generating the world. I'm still thinking through it, though. There is no such thing as nature. It's all technology. It's all artifact--not only created, but built. Uh like, "ORGANIZED"? Agree completely. But then words get in the way. 1
mfbukowski Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) I just thought I would throw this in here for someone- this is an explanation of Kant by a great philosopher in his own right- Robert Solomon who was also one of my professors at UCLA in my Kant course there. Kant was born in 1724 and died in 1804, one year before the birth of Joseph Smith. It is my belief that Kant was sent to lay the groundwork for a philosophy of the restoration, which somehow got missed by the restoration because of retained sectarian notions from pagan Neoplatonism regarding the idea of "perfection" meaning "complete" and therefore unchanging. Reality as we know it and truth insofar as words can represent changing really can never be "unchanging". Reality itself and the alleged truth which allegedly describes it must always be changing according to perspectives of those trying to represent it. This is not easy reading, but for me THIS PASSAGE represents the ideas I learned which started me on my journey to the church, and it took me 15 years after reading and understanding this to understand how God and us- as godlings- organize reality as we know it. THIS, as he notes was really the start of both Phenomenology- which is EXACTLY about how we organize reality- and Pragmatism- both of which share the same viewpoint. https://books.google.com/books?id=iHM9ABHZyB0C&pg=PA18&lpg=PA18&dq="To+perceive+an+object+is+not+merely"+Robert+Solomon&source=bl&ots=xMRg6CT0CQ&sig=r8ONzduovv3GPke8nODDPaj4gBU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiy6LaXjb3ZAhVN_mMKHRV5CKIQ6AEIKjAB#v=onepage&q="To perceive an object is not merely" Robert Solomon&f=false Intellectually this idea, studied for a full quarter from different points of view- this started it all for me. Edited February 23, 2018 by mfbukowski 1
mfbukowski Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 More about Kant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Kant Quote Immanuel Kant (/kænt/;[8] German: [ɪˈmaːnu̯eːl kant]; 22 April 1724 – 12 February 1804) was a German philosopherwho is a central figure in modern philosophy.[9] Kant argues that the human mind creates the structure of human experience, that reason is the source of morality, that aesthetics arises from a faculty of disinterested judgment, that space and time are forms of human sensibility, and that the world as it is "in-itself" is independent of humanity's concepts of it. Kant took himself to have effected a "Copernican revolution" in philosophy, akin to Copernicus' reversal of the age-old belief that the sun revolves around the earth. Kant's beliefs continue to have a major influence on contemporary philosophy, especially the fields of metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, political theory, and aesthetics. Politically, Kant is one of the earliest exponents of the idea that perpetual peace could be secured through universal democracy and international cooperation. He believed that this will be the eventual outcome of universal history, although it is not rationally planned.[10] The exact nature of Kant's religious ideas continues to be the subject of especially heated philosophical dispute, as viewpoints are ranging from the idea that Kant was an early and radical exponent of atheism who finally exploded the ontological argument for God's existence, to more critical treatments epitomized by Nietzsche who claimed that Kant had "theologian blood"[11] and that Kant was merely a sophisticated apologist for traditional Christian religious belief, writing that "Kant wanted to prove, in a way that would dumbfound the common man, that the common man was right: that was the secret joke of this soul."[12] Uh, stuff I have been saying here forever. Gosh I wonder where I got it. 1
SamuelTheLamanite Posted February 23, 2018 Author Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) 46 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: You need to understand that science is the truth that all see and can verify and is in that way "multi-subjective" or "intersubjective". Because you see the same chair others do, clearly that chair is not "subjective". Is an electron a wave or a particle? For me Evolution is not real. For many Evolution is real. For me the Book of Mormon is real, for others it is a 19th century fiction. Our truth is subjective. It may be the case the chair is subjective. For an alien the chair can be a treadmill. Everything is all relative and we humans can only see the universe from one point of view. 46 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Guess what? we all have that equipment and we all see that way- THE WAY GOD- who has a body like ours -ALSO sees the world GOD is the source of life which defines the way we see the world. WE, as gods in embryo have the same kind of intelligence as GOD because our bodies are the same and our intelligence is the same Yes, God is the source of life. Just because we all see it that way doesn't mean God sees it that way. The scriptures say "neither trust in the arm of flesh” (D&C 1:19). Our prophet taught, "The lesson we learned was simple: “Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding” (Proverbs 3:5)." Truth is all relative and everything may be an illusion. Our brains have limits, therefor we must only take the truth from the scriptures. When scientists argue overpopulation is a concern, I much rather trust God's command to multiply and replenish the Earth. Edited February 23, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite
mfbukowski Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) 23 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Is an electron a wave or a particle? For me Evolution is not real. For many Evolution is real. For me the Book of Mormon is real, for others it is a 19th century fiction. Our truth is subjective. It may be the case the chair is subjective. For an alien the chair can be a treadmill. Everything is all relative and we humans can only see the universe from one point of view. Yes, God is the source of life. Just because we all see it that way doesn't mean God sees it that way. The scriptures say "neither trust in the arm of flesh” (D&C 1:19). Our prophet taught, "The lesson we learned was simple: “Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding” (Proverbs 3:5)." Truth is all relative and everything may be an illusion. Our brains have limits, therefor we must only take the truth from the scriptures. When scientists argue overpopulation is a concern, I much rather trust God's command to multiply and replenish the Earth. You are forgetting that if nothing is real and everything is relative then nothing is real and everything is relative including every word out of your mouth, this post, and every idea in your head that you think is "real" That includes the scriptures. So you need to exclude somehow the scriptures from the rest of that stuff. LISTEN TO YOURSELF: Quote “Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding” (Proverbs 3:5)." Truth is all relative and everything may be an illusion TOTALLY self- contradictory!! The scriptures could be an illusion and ARE according to the second sentence. So you either have to get some rational ideas which agree with that or there is no sense in speaking. I am showing you how to do that. If you are not interested, find your own way, Mr.Subjective! But keep it rational or it will fall like a house of cards I am on your side but as it stands It is self-contradictory. Science only conflicts with religion if one is "Correct" and the other "Incorrect" and if all truth is relative, nothing is correct or incorrect. Edited February 23, 2018 by mfbukowski
SamuelTheLamanite Posted February 23, 2018 Author Posted February 23, 2018 5 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: You are forgetting that if nothing is real and everything is relative then nothing is real and everything is relative including every word out of your mouth, this post, and every idea in your head that you think is "real" That includes the scriptures. For many the scriptures are not real. For anti-Mormons the Book of Mormon is a 19th century fraud, for Atheists the Bible is a fairy-tale. Atheists have their truth. I have my truth. My truth is God and the scriptures. It is true for me. The way I see the world is true for me, but you may see things differently, so you have other truths. Revelation is subjective, but it is the real truth for me. Our spiritual senses allow us to know the truth.
mrmarklin Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 This stuffs been debated for a few centuries now, and is fundamentally atheistic. I don't think I want to spend any time debating it. Buh-bye!
mfbukowski Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 17 minutes ago, mrmarklin said: This stuffs been debated for a few centuries now, and is fundamentally atheistic. I don't think I want to spend any time debating it. Buh-bye! Then I am so glad you did not comment!
mfbukowski Posted February 23, 2018 Posted February 23, 2018 21 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: For many the scriptures are not real. For anti-Mormons the Book of Mormon is a 19th century fraud, for Atheists the Bible is a fairy-tale. Atheists have their truth. I have my truth. My truth is God and the scriptures. It is true for me. The way I see the world is true for me, but you may see things differently, so you have other truths. Revelation is subjective, but it is the real truth for me. Our spiritual senses allow us to know the truth. I agree with all the sentiments here insofar as I understand them but I don't think you are seeing the problem the way I am Best wishes
Raymond Ellis Posted February 24, 2018 Posted February 24, 2018 The nature of the universe, atheists and Christians. God is an omnipotent, omnipresent spirit and reality is our interpretation of that spirit -- that is, God creates reality according to our faith; because besides being Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient, Everlasting and All-Loving, he is an absolute servant of his created beings; especially man made in his own image. We see a sinful world because we are sinners. The sinful world lacks complete order -- as scientists have found out. This current reality is soon to pass away as it says in Peter. A new heaven and earth [and universe] will be created for the elect of God. 1John: The world is passing away and the LUST of it, but he who does the will of God abides forever.
SamuelTheLamanite Posted February 24, 2018 Author Posted February 24, 2018 45 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: I agree with all the sentiments here insofar as I understand them but I don't think you are seeing the problem the way I am Why? What problem?
Atheist Mormon Posted February 24, 2018 Posted February 24, 2018 4 hours ago, mfbukowski said: The glory of God is intelligence namely life and Truth. The life that started life we call our heavenly father. Without intelligence there is no existence. I thought everybody knew that. After all it's in our scriptures Words are only verbal descriptions that do not capture reality and never can. So far all we have to show for is us.....which leads me to surmise it was all all a happenstance, accident if you will..........
JLHPROF Posted February 24, 2018 Posted February 24, 2018 6 hours ago, Raymond Ellis said: God is an omnipotent, omnipresent spirit and reality is our interpretation of that spirit -- that is, God creates reality according to our faith; because besides being Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient I thought you were LDS? http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/69911-one-true-church-virtue-or-vice/?do=findComment&comment=1209788498 In Mormonism God is rarely referred to as a spirit. And while we sometimes use the three big O's we don't always take an absolute approach to them. Personally I consider them as illogical. 3
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