clarkgoble Posted January 24, 2018 Posted January 24, 2018 (edited) Just as a more frivolous and speculative thread I thought I'd raise the question of the Numrud Lens and seer stones. This is more just me thinking through issues rather than making a sustained argument for a position I actually hold. We know the stones of the Brother of Jared were from God touching them. I just want to raise a more naturalistic take on this. (Ether is a summation by Moroni from Jaredite texts - so there may be some distortion at work given the levels of rephrasing) The Nimrud Lens is a 3000 year old rock crystal that was cut in a lens-like circular shape. It's use by the Assyrians at Nimrud is a bit speculative. Some say it was a magnifying glass or a glass to start fires by concentrating sunlight or even just decoration. It's more or less akin to a 3x magnifying lens. Assyriologist Giovanni Pettinato has argued that the explanation for rather detailed Assyrian astronomy is this lens. (Even even argues they knew about the rings of Saturn) I raise this along with the description of the Interpreters Joseph Smith had which frequently are seen as coming from the Jaredites on the basis of Alma 37:23-24 and Ether 3:23. William Smith described the interpreters as "set in a double silver bow which was twisted into the shape of a figure 8, and the two stones were placed literally between the two rims of the bow." (William Smith 1891 interview, quoted in Saints Herald, March 9, 1932, p. 258) Parley P. Pratt said "the Urim and Thummim, which consisted of two transparent stones, clear as chrystal, set in the rims of a bow of silver. This was in use, in ancient times, by persons called seers" (Parley P. Pratt, "Discovery of an Ancient Record in America," Millennial Star 1 no. 2 June 1840, 30–37) Truman Coe repeated in 1836 the view that "transparent stone or stones which was the Urim and Thummim mentioned by Moses" (Truman Coe, “Mormonism,” Cincinnati Journal and Western Luminary 25 August 1836) So we have something coming from the Iraq region that fits the description we have of the interpreters. Turning to the Jaredites proper, Moroni summarizes the rocks of the Brother of Jared as "white and clear, even as transparent glass." These weren't natural but had been made by the Brother of Jared from molten rocks. He then prays to God saying "behold these things which I have molten out of the rock ...therefore touch these stones, O Lord, with thy finger, and prepare them that they may shine forth in darkness;" As God touches the stones we have the famous seeing of Christ. Christ then says, "these two stones will I give unto thee...the language which ye shall write I have confounded...these stones shall magnify to the eyes of men these things which ye shall write." It's worth noting that the interpreters Joseph had apparently shined with words albeit fairly dimly thus requiring a hat to block out the sun. Now getting back to the Nimrud Lens there are some differences. The Nimrud lens is ground not manufactured. There are reasons to think it was purely decorative rather than functional. As I mentioned some has suggested it was a lens and helped the Assyrian astronomy observations which are accurate to about 1 arc minute - typically seen as nearly impossible for unaided eyes. The other problem is that Babylonian divination usually was done by looking at the stars, scrying with oil or reading livers (extispicy). Edited January 24, 2018 by clarkgoble 2
CV75 Posted January 24, 2018 Posted January 24, 2018 39 minutes ago, clarkgoble said: Just as a more frivolous and speculative thread I thought I'd raise the question of the Numrud Lens and seer stones. This obelisk depicts a seer looking for his Numrud lens after his grain-waving ass8isatnt accidentally dislodged it. 4
Popular Post RevTestament Posted January 25, 2018 Popular Post Posted January 25, 2018 3 hours ago, CV75 said: This obelisk depicts a seer looking for his Numrud lens after his grain-waving ass8isatnt accidentally dislodged it. Oh silly CV75. That's the Assyrian king with his model of a Jaredite boat which his servant is showing how wind can blow it across his bathtub with a fan of reeds... a much smarter idea than the dude at the bottom who is proposing to blow it across with his mouth. P.S. You guyz are so lucky that someone who really understands archaeology has come along to save you from embarrassment 5
mfbukowski Posted January 25, 2018 Posted January 25, 2018 8 hours ago, CV75 said: This obelisk depicts a seer looking for his Numrud lens after his grain-waving ass8isatnt accidentally dislodged it. The winged figure is the sun and is associated with Shamash and later, Ahura Mazda, if I am not mistaken and represents the sun god in both cases. "The sun of righteousness with healing in his wings" fits well here. There are definite parallels if you get into them, with Hebrew mythology. It's been a while but i will just throw it out there if anyone is interested. The symbol has been around for thousands of years and has most recently, in our wonderful secular age, been revived by Chrysler as a logo. Sigh. 2
RevTestament Posted January 25, 2018 Posted January 25, 2018 28 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: The winged figure is the sun and is associated with Shamash and later, Ahura Mazda, if I am not mistaken and represents the sun god in both cases. "The sun of righteousness with healing in his wings" fits well here. There are definite parallels if you get into them, with Hebrew mythology. It's been a while but i will just throw it out there if anyone is interested. The symbol has been around for thousands of years and has most recently, in our wonderful secular age, been revived by Chrysler as a logo. Sigh. Actually, Yeshua is the bright day-star or the sun. He is the light of the day before the night cometh in which no man could work. Throughout history pagan gods who were representations of the work of the adversary have been trying to dethrone Yeshua from His rightful position as the God of the sun. Ahura Mazda is the Avestan name of the Zoroastrian savior god, and yes there are a lot of parallels between Zoroastrianism and the Judeo-Christian faiths - a god eternally invisible to the people represented in the eternally burning flame. If anyone knows more parallels, I would love for you to spill your guts...or something nicer sounding... 2
CV75 Posted January 25, 2018 Posted January 25, 2018 9 hours ago, mfbukowski said: The winged figure is the sun and is associated with Shamash and later, Ahura Mazda, if I am not mistaken and represents the sun god in both cases. "The sun of righteousness with healing in his wings" fits well here. There are definite parallels if you get into them, with Hebrew mythology. It's been a while but i will just throw it out there if anyone is interested. The symbol has been around for thousands of years and has most recently, in our wonderful secular age, been revived by Chrysler as a logo. Sigh. Oh so now you’re getting serious! It was King Jehu who lost his contacts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Obelisk_of_Shalmaneser_III I once read somewhere that “wings” referred to the fringes (edge, extremity, border, etc.) of a garment. I suppose this might also have an extended application to the imagery and healing in Isaiah 54:2-5, “Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes; For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more. For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.” And of course being clothed and encircled by the robe of righteousness takes us far beyond the fringes and into the "fulness." 1
mfbukowski Posted January 25, 2018 Posted January 25, 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, RevTestament said: Actually, Yeshua is the bright day-star or the sun. He is the light of the day before the night cometh in which no man could work. Throughout history pagan gods who were representations of the work of the adversary have been trying to dethrone Yeshua from His rightful position as the God of the sun. Ahura Mazda is the Avestan name of the Zoroastrian savior god, and yes there are a lot of parallels between Zoroastrianism and the Judeo-Christian faiths - a god eternally invisible to the people represented in the eternally burning flame. If anyone knows more parallels, I would love for you to spill your guts...or something nicer sounding... It's never ending. You get into this you get into something very basic to humanity as a whole especially in the middle east No time to get into it now but check this out http://www.whale.to/c/wingedsundisk.html know also that this is related to the Brazen Serpent raised for healing- the shiny brass reflecting the Sun. Yahweh is also related to serpent gods- we must be "wise as serpents and gentle as doves"- see caduceus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caduceus Zoroastrian magi followed the star to find the savior- they had all those traditions- the star representing the sun.....this stuff will blow your mind if you get into the mythology,,, Edited January 25, 2018 by mfbukowski 1
mfbukowski Posted January 25, 2018 Posted January 25, 2018 3 hours ago, CV75 said: Oh so now you’re getting serious! It was King Jehu who lost his contacts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Obelisk_of_Shalmaneser_III I once read somewhere that “wings” referred to the fringes (edge, extremity, border, etc.) of a garment. I suppose this might also have an extended application to the imagery and healing in Isaiah 54:2-5, “Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes; For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more. For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.” And of course being clothed and encircled by the robe of righteousness takes us far beyond the fringes and into the "fulness." ... and the woman who was healed by touching the fringe of Jesus' garment.... 1
CV75 Posted January 25, 2018 Posted January 25, 2018 (edited) 29 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: ... and the woman who was healed by touching the fringe of Jesus' garment.... My thoughts exactly! Reference Numbers 15: 37-40 (Deuteronomy 2;12 also). The kanaph http://biblehub.com/hebrew/3671.htm, or the "tzitzit," is attached to the "tallit" or prayer shawl and Jesus certainly wore the tallit. Edited January 25, 2018 by CV75 1
RevTestament Posted January 25, 2018 Posted January 25, 2018 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: know also that this is related to the Brazen Serpent raised for healing- the shiny brass reflecting the Sun. Yahweh is also related to serpent gods- we must be "wise as serpents and gentle as doves"- see caduceus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caduceus I've never seen it quite that way. To me the serpent always represents adversarial forces - even when Aaron's staff becomes a serpent to eat pharaoh's. To look upon the brazen serpent on the staff of Moses in order to not be bitten, to me means not to run from evil, but to overcome it, even as Yeshua did on the cross. Being wise as a serpent means to understand and be able to outsmart the adversary at his own game - not that the serpent is a representation of God. All jmho, of course.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 26, 2018 Posted January 26, 2018 (edited) On 1/24/2018 at 12:33 PM, clarkgoble said: Just as a more frivolous and speculative thread I thought I'd raise the question of the Numrud Lens and seer stones. .............. The Nimrud Lens is a 3000 year old rock crystal that was cut in a lens-like circular shape. It's use by the Assyrians at Nimrud is a bit speculative. Some say it was a magnifying glass or a glass to start fires by concentrating sunlight or even just decoration. It's more or less akin to a 3x magnifying lens............................................... Hugh Nibley speculated that the Urim & Thummim used by Abraham 3 was the ocular and objective lenses of a telescope (Nibley, "Phase One," Dialogue, 3/2 [Summer 1968]:104.), and Giovanni Pettinato provides excellent support: Quote Italian scientist Giovanni Pettinato of the University of Rome has proposed that the lens was used by the ancient Assyrians as part of a telescope, and that this explains their knowledge of astronomy (see Babylonian astronomy).[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimrud_lens , citing Whitehouse, David (July 1, 1999). "World's oldest telescope?". BBC News. Retrieved May 10, 2008. If one Italian scientist is correct then the telescope was not invented sometime in the 16th century by Dutch spectacle makers, but by ancient Assyrian astronomers nearly three thousand years earlier. According to Professor Giovanni Pettinato of the University of Rome, a rock crystal lens, currently on show in the British museum, could rewrite the history of science. He believes that it could explain why the ancient Assyrians knew so much about astronomy." Pettinato believes the lens was used by Assyrian astronomers as a telescope more than three thousand years ago. They saw more in the night sky than was possible with the naked eye alone. For example, the Assyrians saw the planet Saturn as a god surrounded by a ring of serpents. Pettinato says that would be a logical assumption to make if they saw Saturn's rings through a primitive telescope." Edited January 26, 2018 by Robert F. Smith 2
SettingDogStar Posted October 9, 2018 Posted October 9, 2018 On 1/25/2018 at 9:50 PM, Robert F. Smith said: Hugh Nibley speculated that the Urim & Thummim used by Abraham 3 was the ocular and objective lenses of a telescope (Nibley, "Phase One," Dialogue, 3/2 [Summer 1968]:104.), While I know almost nothing on Assyrian History I really like this idea! The moment I saw the image on the OP's post my first thought was the Book of Abraham and his knowledge of the stars being transferred to the Egyptians. Though I wonder if the Nephite "interpreters" could be used for a similar purpose or if Joseph and others just used the term "Urim and Thummim" as a nomenclature for simplicity?
Robert F. Smith Posted October 9, 2018 Posted October 9, 2018 4 hours ago, SettingDogStar said: While I know almost nothing on Assyrian History I really like this idea! The moment I saw the image on the OP's post my first thought was the Book of Abraham and his knowledge of the stars being transferred to the Egyptians. Though I wonder if the Nephite "interpreters" could be used for a similar purpose or if Joseph and others just used the term "Urim and Thummim" as a nomenclature for simplicity? Yes. They used that term beginning in 1833 as a kind of generic reference to any revelatory device (seerstones, Nephite interpreters, etc.), even though it is technically only a device used in ancient Israel.
SettingDogStar Posted October 9, 2018 Posted October 9, 2018 10 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Yes. They used that term beginning in 1833 as a kind of generic reference to any revelatory device (seerstones, Nephite interpreters, etc.), even though it is technically only a device used in ancient Israel. Makes sense! I thought I had heard that before but I wasn't sure. However IF this device that the OP showed was used for religious purposes in Assyria then I suppose the Nephite interpreters would be a combination of the two, right? From what I understood the Israelite Urim and Thummim was placed on the shoulders in pockets and weren't translucent. So i'm curious as to where the Nephites got the idea (if not from God) to suspend them like glasses.
Robert F. Smith Posted October 9, 2018 Posted October 9, 2018 3 hours ago, SettingDogStar said: Makes sense! I thought I had heard that before but I wasn't sure. However IF this device that the OP showed was used for religious purposes in Assyria then I suppose the Nephite interpreters would be a combination of the two, right? From what I understood the Israelite Urim and Thummim was placed on the shoulders in pockets and weren't translucent. So i'm curious as to where the Nephites got the idea (if not from God) to suspend them like glasses. It was a Jaredite thing before it was Nephite, but the description as diamond-shaped stones set in spectacles doesn't really tell us what it truly was.
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