JarMan Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 (edited) In 2 Nephi 3 we have a prophecy from Joseph of Egypt delivered by Lehi to his youngest son Joseph. The prophecy mentions several people including a "choice seer" (obviously referring to Joseph Smith), also Moses, and Moses' spokesman, Aaron (who he doesn't mention by name). In verses 18-19 he mentions two more people: Quote 18 And the Lord said unto me also: I will raise up unto the fruit of thy loins; and I will make for him a spokesman. And I, behold, I will give unto him that he shall write the writing of the fruit of thy loins, unto the fruit of thy loins; and the spokesman of thy loins shall declare it. 19 And the words which he shall write shall be the words which are expedient in my wisdom should go forth unto the fruit of thy loins. And it shall be as if the fruit of thy loins had cried unto them from the dust; for I know their faith. So we have two additional people mentioned: 1) the one that will write the writing, and 2) the spokesman for the one that will write the writing. My question is, who are these two people? We might assume that person #1 is Mormon and person #2 is Joseph Smith. But does this really work? Mormon didn't write the small plates. Nor did Mormon (directly) write the portion that was finished by Moroni. So maybe person #1 is Oliver Cowdery. But this theory suffers in the same way since there were multiple scribes involved in the process. And the comparison with Moses and Aaron implies that a spokesman is needed because the writer is incapable in some of way of effectively speaking the words. Oliver doesn't fit that description (although Mormon does, since he's dead). Or maybe person #1 is Joseph Smith. The beginning of 2 Nephi 3 (not to mention Moses 1:41) represents Joseph Smith as a new Moses. But Joseph is perfectly capable as a spokesman. And so who is person #2? Are there other possible combinations? If you've followed any of my recent threads you will probably guess that I have an alternate, unconventional theory. Edited January 7, 2018 by JarMan
cdowis Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 (edited) I think it is pretty clear. The key is parsing the phrase "write (verb) the writing (noun)". This refers to Joseph Smith in his two roles ==>> he "wrote the (existing) writing" refers to the translation of the existing written records (the plates), AND he is also the spokesman of those writings. Edited January 7, 2018 by cdowis
Glenn101 Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 7 hours ago, JarMan said: Or maybe person #1 is Joseph Smith. The beginning of 2 Nephi 3 (not to mention Moses 1:41) represents Joseph Smith as a new Moses. But Joseph is perfectly capable as a spokesman. And so who is person #2? I sort of feel that it was Sidney Rigdon. He was an eloquent orator and according to the Encyclopedia of Mormonism he was the Church's "most persuasive orator in the first decade." Glenn
Glenn101 Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 15 minutes ago, cdowis said: I think it is pretty clear. This refers to Joseph Smith in his two roles ==>> he "wrote the (existing) writing" refers to the translation of the existing written records (the plates), AND he is also the spokesman of those writings. I am not so sure of that. Joseph became a pretty good speaker but RIgdon was much more polished and eloquent. He was second only to Joseph Smith for many years, up until Joseph's death. Verse 17 of 2 Nephi 3 seems to be saying that the spokesman and Joseph were to be two different people. "And the Lord hath said: I will raise up a Moses; and I will give power unto him in a rod; and I will give judgment unto him in writing. Yet I will not loose his tongue, that he shall speak much, for I will not make him mighty in speaking. But I will write unto him my law, by the finger of mine own hand; and I will make a spokesman for him." Glenn
RevTestament Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, JarMan said: In 2 Nephi 3 we have a prophecy from Joseph of Egypt delivered by Lehi to his youngest son Joseph. The prophecy mentions several people including a "choice seer" (obviously referring to Joseph Smith), also Moses, and Moses' spokesman, Aaron (who he doesn't mention by name). In verses 18-19 he mentions two more people: So we have two additional people mentioned: 1) the one that will write the writing, and 2) the spokesman for the one that will write the writing. My question is, who are these two people? We might assume that person #1 is Mormon and person #2 is Joseph Smith. But does this really work? Mormon didn't write the small plates. Nor did Mormon (directly) write the portion that was finished by Moroni. So maybe person #1 is Oliver Cowdery. But this theory suffers in the same way since there were multiple scribes involved in the process. And the comparison with Moses and Aaron implies that a spokesman is needed because the writer is incapable in some of way of effectively speaking the words. Oliver doesn't fit that description (although Mormon does, since he's dead). Or maybe person #1 is Joseph Smith. The beginning of 2 Nephi 3 (not to mention Moses 1:41) represents Joseph Smith as a new Moses. But Joseph is perfectly capable as a spokesman. And so who is person #2? Are there other possible combinations? If you've followed any of my recent threads you will probably guess that I have an alternate, unconventional theory. 2 hours ago, cdowis said: I think it is pretty clear. This refers to Joseph Smith in his two roles ==>> he "wrote the (existing) writing" refers to the translation of the existing written records (the plates), AND he is also the spokesman of those writings. 2 Nephi 3:12... and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins, and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah, shall grow together, unto the confounding of false doctrines and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and bringing them to the knowledge of their fathers in the latter days, and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord. 13 And out of weakness he shall be made strong, in that day when my work shall commence among all my people, unto the restoring thee, O house of Israel, saith the Lord. 14 And thus prophesied Joseph, saying: Behold, that seer will the Lord bless; and they that seek to destroy him shall be confounded; for this promise, which I have obtained of the Lord, of the fruit of my loins, shall be fulfilled. Behold, I am sure of the fulfilling of this promise; 15 And his name shall be called after me; and it shall be after the name of his father. And he shall be like unto me; for the thing, which the Lord shall bring forth by his hand, by the power of the Lord shall bring my people unto salvation. 16 Yea, thus prophesied Joseph: I am sure of this thing, even as I am sure of the promise of Moses; for the Lord hath said unto me, I will preserve thy seed forever. 17 And the Lord hath said: I will raise up a Moses; and I will give power unto him in a rod; and I will give judgment unto him in writing. Yet I will not loose his tongue, that he shall speak much, for I will not make him mighty in speaking. But I will write unto him my law, by the finger of mine own hand; and I will make a spokesman for him. Per verse 17 the seer named Joseph after his father will NOT be mighty in speaking, but the Lord says he shall make a spokesman for him/Joseph, so the spokesman really cannot be Joseph. At one time many years ago I thought it may be referring to Sidney Rigdon, but notice the next verse: 18 And the Lord said unto me also: I will raise up unto the fruit of thy loins; and I will make for him a spokesman. And I, behold, I will give unto him that he shall write the writing of the fruit of thy loins, unto the fruit of thy loins; and the spokesman of thy loins shall declare it. This makes it sound like the spokesman is from the loins of Joseph, Lehi's son. However, verse 11 also seems to say this about the seer: 11 But a seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins; and unto him will I give power to bring forth my word unto the seed of thy loins—and not to the bringing forth my word only, saith the Lord, but to the convincing them of my word, which shall have already gone forth among them. However, I interpret verse 11 as the Lord still talking to Joseph of Egypt rather than Joseph, Lehi's son: 7 Yea, Joseph truly said: Thus saith the Lord unto me: A choice seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins So to me it is not clear in verse 18 if the "me" is Joseph of Egypt or Lehi, because verse 16 seems to be an end marker for the prophecy of Joseph of Egypt. I interpret the me as being Joseph of Egypt like in versse 15. The definitive marker for what Joseph of Egypt prophesied seems to occur at verse 22: 22 And now, behold, my son Joseph, after this manner did my father of old prophesy. So it seems to me the speaker is either a descendant of the loins of Joseph of Egypt or Joseph of Lehi. I believe it is the former because it seems to be Lehi quoting Joseph of Egypt. However, the spokesman is clearly a different person than the seer who does not speak much. Then at the end we have: 24 And there shall rise up one mighty among them, who shall do much good, both in word and in deed, being an instrument in the hands of God, with exceeding faith, to work mighty wonders, and do that thing which is great in the sight of God, unto the bringing to pass much restoration unto the house of Israel, and unto the seed of thy brethren. This seems to be hearkening back the beginning at verse 5 to the Branch who is not the Messiah in a probable chiastic form starting at verse 4: 5 Wherefore, Joseph truly saw our day. And he obtained a promise of the Lord, that out of the fruit of his loins the Lord God would raise up a righteous branch unto the house of Israel; not the Messiah, but a branch which was to be broken off, nevertheless, to be remembered in the covenants of the Lord that the Messiah should be made manifest unto them in the latter days, in the spirit of power, unto the bringing of them out of darkness unto light—yea, out of hidden darkness and out of captivity unto freedom. The question is, is this JS? or perhaps the spokesman? or someone else? Doctrine and Covenants 85:7 7 And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in aorder the house of God, and to arrange by blot the cinheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God; Edited January 7, 2018 by RevTestament 1
Bernard Gui Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 35 minutes ago, RevTestament said: So it seems to me the speaker is either a descendant of the loins of Joseph of Egypt or Joseph of Lehi. I believe it is the former because it seems to be Lehi quoting Joseph of Egypt. However, the spokesman is clearly a different person than the seer who does not speak much. Then at the end we have: 24 And there shall rise up one mighty among them, who shall do much good, both in word and in deed, being an instrument in the hands of God, with exceeding faith, to work mighty wonders, and do that thing which is great in the sight of God, unto the bringing to pass much restoration unto the house of Israel, and unto the seed of thy brethren. This seems to be hearkening back the beginning at verse 5 to the Branch who is not the Messiah in a probable chiastic form starting at verse 4: 5 Wherefore, Joseph truly saw our day. And he obtained a promise of the Lord, that out of the fruit of his loins the Lord God would raise up a righteous branch unto the house of Israel; not the Messiah, but a branch which was to be broken off, nevertheless, to be remembered in the covenants of the Lord that the Messiah should be made manifest unto them in the latter days, in the spirit of power, unto the bringing of them out of darkness unto light—yea, out of hidden darkness and out of captivity unto freedom. The question is, is this JS? or perhaps the spokesman? or someone else? Someone else, I think. I once wrote an essay making the case that this last person was the prophet Mormon, as in the editor of The Book of Mormon. He fits all the criteria.
MDalby Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 (edited) This is what Bruce R McConkie said regarding these verses... Quote ". . . the Lord said to Joseph of old: "I will raise up unto the fruit of thy loins; and I will make for him a spokesman." As Moses wrote and Aaron proclaimed the law given in the Old World, so someone in the New World, someone of the seed of Joseph, would write the Lord's law, and yet another, a spokesman, would declare it. In this case the writer and the spokesman are not identified by name; rather, we are left, based on our knowledge of what has transpired in this and previous dispensations, to identify those whose missions were of such import as to have them revealed thousands of years before the events transpired. Mormon wrote the Book of Mormon, quoting, condensing, and summarizing from many ancient records as the Spirit directed. And Joseph Smith translated the ancient word by the gift and power of God and proclaimed it to all men, and to the seed of Joseph in particular, as the mind and will and voice of him by whom salvation comes. With this in mind, note these words of the Lord: 'And I, behold, I will give unto him [Mormon] that he shall write the writing of the fruit of thy loins [the Nephites], unto the fruit of thy loins [the Lamanites]; and the spokesman of thy loins [Joseph Smith] shall declare it.' That is, Mormon wrote the Book of Mormon, but what he wrote was taken from the writings of the Nephite prophets; and these writings, compiled into one book, were translated by Joseph Smith and sent forth by him unto the Lamanites, unto whom, as the title page of the Book of Mormon attests, they were originally written. And further, they are sent forth to all the seed of Joseph, whether in the Lamanite branch of Israel or not. 'And the words which he [Mormon] shall write shall be the words which are expedient in my wisdom should go forth unto the fruit of thy loins.' They were selected by inspiration, and they contain that portion of the word that is designed to bring fallen Israel again into the true sheepfold, where they will be taught the deeper doctrines, including the mysteries of the kingdom. 'And it shall be as if the fruit of thy loins [the Nephites] had cried unto them [their Lamanite brethren, in particular] from the dust; for I know their faith.' Many were the ancient Book of Mormon prophets who pled with the Lord that the gospel might go in due course and in his providences to the remnant of Lehi's seed." (Bruce R. McConkie, A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, 425-26) Edited January 7, 2018 by MDalby 1
RevTestament Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 5 minutes ago, MDalby said: This is what Bruce R McConkie said regarding these verses... With this in mind, note these words of the Lord: 'And I, behold, I will give unto him [Mormon] that he shall write the writing of the fruit of thy loins [the Nephites], unto the fruit of thy loins [the Lamanites]; and the spokesman of thy loins [Joseph Smith] shall declare it.' That is, Mormon wrote the Book of Mormon, but what he wrote was taken from the writings of the Nephite prophets; and these writings, compiled into one book, were translated by Joseph Smith and sent forth by him unto the Lamanites, unto whom, as the title page of the Book of Mormon attests, they were originally written. And further, they are sent forth to all the seed of Joseph, whether in the Lamanite branch of Israel or not. I guess I found yet another place to disagree with brother McConkie. His conclusion seems to squarely contradict who the seer is: 14 And thus prophesied Joseph, saying: Behold, that seer will the Lord bless; and they that seek to destroy him shall be confounded; for this promise, which I have obtained of the Lord, of the fruit of my loins, shall be fulfilled. Behold, I am sure of the fulfilling of this promise; 15 And his name shall be called after me; and it shall be after the name of his father. And he shall be like unto me; for the thing, which the Lord shall bring forth by his hand, by the power of the Lord shall bring my people unto salvation. I think one has to agree that the writer is the Moses from the ancient prophecy in verse 17. 17 And the Lord hath said: I will raise up a Moses; and I will give power unto him in a rod; and I will give judgment unto him in writing. Yet I will not loose his tongue, that he shall speak much, for I will not make him mighty in speaking. But I will write unto him my law, by the finger of mine own hand; and I will make a spokesman for him. Then the question becomes who is this "Moses?" These prior verses make it clear it is the seer named after Joseph: 7 Yea, Joseph truly said: Thus saith the Lord unto me: A choice seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins; and he shall be esteemed highly among the fruit of thy loins. And unto him will I give commandment that he shall do a work for the fruit of thy loins, his brethren, which shall be of great worth unto them, even to the bringing of them to the knowledge of the covenants which I have made with thy fathers. 8 And I will give unto him a commandment that he shall do none other work, save the work which I shall command him. And I will make him great in mine eyes; for he shall do my work. 9 And he shall be great like unto Moses, whom I have said I would raise up unto you, to deliver my people, O house of Israel. I suppose one can make this more confusing by adding yet a third Moses in order to make Bro McConkie right, but we already have 3 Moseses - Moses, the Savior and JS. Putting two in this prophecy doesn't work.
JarMan Posted January 7, 2018 Author Posted January 7, 2018 3 hours ago, cdowis said: I think it is pretty clear. The key is parsing the phrase "write (verb) the writing (noun)". This refers to Joseph Smith in his two roles ==>> he "wrote the (existing) writing" refers to the translation of the existing written records (the plates), AND he is also the spokesman of those writings. I think the whole point is that the writer is a different person from the spokesman. The mention of Moses plus Aaron in verse 17 seems to be setting this idea up.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 1 hour ago, MDalby said: This is what Bruce R McConkie said regarding these verses... Can we possibly find room in these interpretations for a translator prior to Joseph Smith Jr? One from the 16th or 17th century? What would Elder McConkie have done with the textual evidence we now have from Carmack & Skousen? Provided he took it seriously.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 10 hours ago, JarMan said: ............................................ We might assume that person #1 is Mormon and person #2 is Joseph Smith. But does this really work? Mormon didn't write the small plates. Nor did Mormon (directly) write the portion that was finished by Moroni. .......................................... While it is true that Mormon did not write the small plates of Nephi, he did write (edit) the book of Lehi, which was lost, and which covers that full territory. So he is effectively the editor of the whole book, as listed on the Title Page.
JarMan Posted January 7, 2018 Author Posted January 7, 2018 3 hours ago, Glenn101 said: I sort of feel that it was Sidney Rigdon. He was an eloquent orator and according to the Encyclopedia of Mormonism he was the Church's "most persuasive orator in the first decade." Glenn Joseph Smith didn't literally write anything (not much, at least) so that is a mark against him being the writer. Plus he didn't really need a spokesman since he was already very articulate. As far as Sidney being the spokesman, he seems to be a marginal candidate for this. I can't say I'm intimately familiar with this speeches or talks, but I know that he was very biblically oriented because of his experience as a preacher. I don't know how much he championed the Book of Mormon but my guess is that he mostly stuck to his biblical sermons. (I'm happy to be corrected on this if someone has a better feel for his teachings.) Also, he wasn't really a major Mormon figure in the grand scheme of things. At times he seems to have been more of a hindrance than a help to Joseph.
JarMan Posted January 7, 2018 Author Posted January 7, 2018 3 hours ago, Glenn101 said: I am not so sure of that. Joseph became a pretty good speaker but RIgdon was much more polished and eloquent. He was second only to Joseph Smith for many years, up until Joseph's death. Verse 17 of 2 Nephi 3 seems to be saying that the spokesman and Joseph were to be two different people. "And the Lord hath said: I will raise up a Moses; and I will give power unto him in a rod; and I will give judgment unto him in writing. Yet I will not loose his tongue, that he shall speak much, for I will not make him mighty in speaking. But I will write unto him my law, by the finger of mine own hand; and I will make a spokesman for him." Glenn I read verse 17 as referring to Moses and Aaron because of the phrase, "I will give power unto him in a rod". It seems to be setting up verse 18 in order to show a different writer/spokesman duo.
Bernard Gui Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 (edited) For what it's worth, here is my case for Mormon. There Shall Rise Up One Mighty Among Them In 2 Nephi 2, Joseph, son of Lehi, is given this promise by his father: 22 And now, behold, my son Joseph, after this manner did my father of old prophesy. 23 Wherefore, because of this covenant thou art blessed; for thy seed shall not be destroyed, for they shall hearken unto the words of the book. 24 And there shall rise up one mighty among them, who shall do much good, both in word and in deed, being an instrument in the hands of God, with exceeding faith, to work mighty wonders, and do that thing which is great in the sight of God, unto the bringing to pass much restoration unto the house of Israel, and unto the seed of thy brethren. There is some question who this "one mighty among them" will be. It's not Joseph Smith, because this one will be a descendant of Lehi. Joseph Fielding Smith and Spencer Kimball suggested it would be a future prophet to come out of the remnants of Lehi (a "Lamanite" or "Indian" prophet). Let me propose another candidate, one who we all know well but perhaps take for granted. How did Lehi describe this prophet? What are the criteria he set forth? • He did much good in word and deed. • He was an instrument in the hands of God. • He had exceeding faith. • He worked mighty wonders. • He did that thing which is great in the sight of God in bringing restoration to the house of Israel and the seed of Lehi. 1. He did much good in word and deed. I did speak unto my people, and did urge them with great energy, that they would stand boldly before the Lamanites and fight for their wives, and their children, and their houses, and their homes. And my words did arouse them somewhat to vigor, insomuch that they did not flee from before the Lamanites, but did stand with boldness against them. And it came to pass that the Lord did say unto me: Cry unto this people—Repent ye, and come unto me, and be ye baptized, and build up again my church, and ye shall be spared. And I did cry unto this people, but it was in vain; and they did not realize that it was the Lord that had spared them, and granted unto them a chance for repentance. And behold they did harden their hearts against the Lord their God. Behold, I had led them, notwithstanding their wickedness I had led them many times to battle, and had loved them, according to the love of God which was in me, with all my heart; and my soul had been poured out in prayer unto my God all the day long for them; nevertheless, it was without faith, because of the hardness of their hearts. And thrice have I delivered them out of the hands of their enemies, and they have repented not of their sins. I did go forth among the Nephites, and did repent of the oath which I had made that I would no more assist them; and they gave me command again of their armies, for they looked upon me as though I could deliver them from their afflictions. But behold, I was without hope, for I knew the judgments of the Lord which should come upon them. 2. He was an instrument in the hands of God. And this is the commandment which I have received; and behold, they shall come forth according to the commandment of the Lord, when he shall see fit, in his wisdom. And I, being fifteen years of age and being somewhat of a sober mind, therefore I was visited of the Lord, and tasted and knew of the goodness of Jesus. And I did endeavor to preach unto this people, but my mouth was shut, and I was forbidden that I should preach unto them. And I do this for a wise purpose; for thus it whispereth me, according to the workings of the Spirit of the Lord which is in me. And now, I do not know all things; but the Lord knoweth all things which are to come; wherefore, he worketh in me to do according to his will. 3. He had exceeding faith. And the things which are upon these plates pleasing me, because of the prophecies of the coming of Christ; and my fathers knowing that many of them have been fulfilled; yea, and I also know that as many things as have been prophesied concerning us down to this day have been fulfilled, and as many as go beyond this day must surely come to pass. And it came to pass that when I, Mormon, saw their lamentation and their mourning and their sorrow before the Lord, my heart did begin to rejoice within me, knowing the mercies and the long-suffering of the Lord, therefore supposing that he would be merciful unto them that they would again become a righteous people. And wo is me because of their wickedness; for my heart has been filled with sorrow because of their wickedness, all my days; nevertheless, I know that I shall be lifted up at the last day. If it so be that ye believe in Christ, and are baptized, first with water, then with fire and with the Holy Ghost, following the example of our Savior, according to that which he hath commanded us, it shall be well with you in the day of judgment. 4. He worked mighty wonders. [Ammaron] came unto me, (I being about ten years of age, and I began to be learned somewhat after the manner of the learning of my people) and Ammaron said unto me: I perceive that thou art a sober child, and art quick to observe; Therefore, when ye are about twenty and four years old I would that ye should remember the things that ye have observed concerning this people; and when ye are of that age go to the land Antum, unto a hill which shall be called Shim; and there have I deposited unto the Lord all the sacred engravings concerning this people. Notwithstanding I being young, was large in stature; therefore the people of Nephi appointed me that I should be their leader, or the leader of their armies. Therefore it came to pass that in my sixteenth year I did go forth at the head of an army of the Nephites, against the Lamanites. And now, the Lamanites had a king, and his name was Aaron; and he came against us with an army of forty and four thousand. And behold, I withstood him with forty and two thousand. And it came to pass that I beat him with my army that he fled before me. And behold, ye shall take the plates of Nephi unto yourself, and the remainder shall ye leave in the place where they are; and ye shall engrave on the plates of Nephi all the things that ye have observed concerning this people. And now I, Mormon, seeing that the Lamanites were about to overthrow the land, therefore I did go to the hill Shim, and did take up all the records which Ammaron had hid up unto the Lord. And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni. 5. He did that thing which is great in the sight of God in bringing the restoration to the house of Israel and the seed of Lehi. Therefore I write unto you, Gentiles, and also unto you, house of Israel, when the work shall commence, that ye shall be about to prepare to return to the land of your inheritance; Yea, behold, I write unto all the ends of the earth; yea, unto you, twelve tribes of Israel, who shall be judged according to your works by the twelve whom Jesus chose to be his disciples in the land of Jerusalem. And I write also unto the remnant of this people, who shall also be judged by the twelve whom Jesus chose in this land; and they shall be judged by the other twelve whom Jesus chose in the land of Jerusalem. And these things doth the Spirit manifest unto me; therefore I write unto you all. And for this cause I write unto you, that ye may know that ye must all stand before the judgment-seat of Christ, yea, every soul who belongs to the whole human family of Adam; and ye must stand to be judged of your works, whether they be good or evil; And also that ye may believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, which ye shall have among you; and also that the Jews, the covenant people of the Lord, shall have other witness besides him whom they saw and heard, that Jesus, whom they slew, was the very Christ and the very God. And I would that I could persuade all ye ends of the earth to repent and prepare to stand before the judgment-seat of Christ. And also that a knowledge of these things must come unto the remnant of these people, and also unto the Gentiles, who the Lord hath said should scatter this people.... This I speak unto their seed, and also to the Gentiles who have care for the house of Israel, that realize and know from whence their blessings come. For I know that such will sorrow for the calamity of the house of Israel; yea, they will sorrow for the destruction of this people; they will sorrow that this people had not repented that they might have been clasped in the arms of Jesus. Now these things are written unto the remnant of the house of Jacob; and they are written after this manner, because it is known of God that wickedness will not bring them forth unto them; and they are to be hid up unto the Lord that they may come forth in his own due time. And behold, they shall go unto the unbelieving of the Jews; and for this intent shall they go—that they may be persuaded that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God; that the Father may bring about, through his most Beloved, his great and eternal purpose, in restoring the Jews, or all the house of Israel, to the land of their inheritance, which the Lord their God hath given them, unto the fulfilling of his covenant; And also that the seed of this people may more fully believe his gospel, which shall go forth unto them from the Gentiles; for this people shall be scattered, and shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us, yea, even that which hath been among the Lamanites, and this because of their unbelief and idolatry. And ye will also know that ye are a remnant of the seed of Jacob; therefore ye are numbered among the people of the first covenant; and if it so be that ye believe in Christ, and are baptized, first with water, then with fire and with the Holy Ghost, following the example of our Savior, according to that which he hath commanded us, it shall be well with you in the day of judgment. And as surely as the Lord liveth, will he gather in from the four quarters of the earth all the remnant of the seed of Jacob, who are scattered abroad upon all the face of the earth. And as he hath covenanted with all the house of Jacob, even so shall the covenant wherewith he hath covenanted with the house of Jacob be fulfilled in his own due time, unto the restoring all the house of Jacob unto the knowledge of the covenant that he hath covenanted with them. And then shall they know their Redeemer, who is Jesus Christ, the Son of God; and then shall they be gathered in from the four quarters of the earth unto their own lands, from whence they have been dispersed; yea, as the Lord liveth so shall it be. Yes, I'm talking about that giant of a Nephite, the Prophet Mormon. As a boy, he was a leader of men. As a man, he was one of the greatest prophets of God. As a prophet, he was fearless in his faith and secure in his knowledge. As a warrior, he gave his life in defense of his people. As a father, he inspired greatness in his son Moroni. As a historian, he was entrusted to make and preserve the record of his people that became the foundation of the Restoration. Truly, he was "one mighty among them." Granted, some may point out that he claimed to be a descendant of Nephi, not Joseph, but it is reasonable to conclude that the descendants of the faithful Lehites (Nephi, Sam, Joseph, Jacob, and Zoram) intermarried and all could claim to be descended from Nephi. In fact, all the descendants of those Lehi sons became grouped under the head of Nephi. But is it not possible that this man was the one prophesied to come and bring restoration to Lehi's family? I understand the references to Joseph Smith earlier in the chapter, but this promise was about a descendant of Joseph, son of Lehi. Noting the period at the end of verse 22 and the pivot to his son in verse 23, it looks to me that Lehi has ended his quotation of the prophesy of Joseph of Egypt, and then moves on to promise that another prophet will be raised from the descendants of Lehi's son Joseph to bless his seed; Joseph Smith was not a Lehite. I came to this interpretation by carefully considering the context. I agree that Joseph Smith is the prophet foretold in the verses prior to 22. In previous verses, the words of Joseph of Egypt (JosephE) are set off by attribution phrases and colons. In my view, the period in verse 22 is a full stop; the quoting is over. Verse 21 is the end of JosephE's words. Then in verses 23, 24, and 25 Lehi pivots back to his son Joseph (JosephL). He makes his own promise (similar to and patterned after that of their father JosephE) to his son JosephL. It is his final blessing to this faithful son. Because of the covenant made with JosephE, JosephL will also be blessed. His seed shall not be destroyed because they will accept the message of the book. A mighty one will rise from "them" - the seed of JosephL in the verse 23 - who will participate in the restoration to the Jews and Lehites. I think this was fulfilled in the prophet Mormon. The criteria fit him to a T. This is supposedly a SW Kimball quote that deals with the prophecy. It's referenced in a GC talk (and parts quoted) that was given in the 1970s but I’ve only found the entire quote on a separate site that's not very pro-Mormon so take it for what it's worth. “The Lamanites must rise in majesty and power.” (Conference Reports, Oct. 1947) “The Lamanites must rise in majesty and power. We must look forward to the day when they will be “white and delightsome” (2 Ne. 5:21; 2 Ne. 30:6), sharing the freedoms and blessings which we enjoy; when they shall have economic security, culture, refinement, and education; when they shall be operating farms and businesses and industries and shall be occupied in the professions and in teaching; when they shall be organized into wards and stakes of Zion, furnishing much of their own leadership; when they shall build and occupy and fill the temples, and serve in them as the natives are now serving in the Hawaiian Temple where I found last year the entire service conducted by them and done perfectly. And in the day when their prophet shall come, one shall rise. . . mighty among them . . . being an instrument in the hands of God, with exceeding faith, to work mighty wonders (2 Ne. 3:24).” Since it is presented as a prophecy, it was fulfilled as the book was introduced to the Lehites (JosephL and his brethren). Here is the "one" in verses 22-24....the descendant of JosephL.... 21 And now, behold, my son Joseph, after this manner did my father of old prophesy. 23 Wherefore, because of this covenant thou art blessed; for thy seed shall not be destroyed, for they shall hearken unto the words of the book. 24 And there shall rise up one mighty among them, who shall do much good, both in word and in deed, being an instrument in the hands of God, with exceeding faith, to work mighty wonders, and do that thing which is great in the sight of God, unto the bringing to pass much restoration unto the house of Israel, and unto the seed of thy brethren. Changing the period in verse 22 to a comma and adding the quotation marks do change the intent and meaning of 24 and 25. It is a possible reading. On the other hand, the promise of surviving seed was one that Lehi gave to his sons on several occasions and was a recurring theme throughout the Book of Mormon. That was never an issue with JosephE as far as I can determine. JosephL doesn't necessarily come after the book - that his seed will "hearken to the book," which is the Book of Mormon. I don't see 23 and 24 being a chronological order. One could interpret "And" at the beginning of 24 as "then," or just as another part of the prophecy. This is not Joseph Smith. Is this one yet to come from among the Lehites? I believe the current punctuation and editing are sound. 23 and 24 are clearly Lehi's words to his son JosephL. SWK and JFS saw it that way. They thought the one would be a future Native American. That could be, but I think Mormon is the perfect candidate. Verse 23 repeats Lehi's promise given to JosephL in verse 3, which makes these final verses a more proper summary and conclusion to his personal blessing: 3 And now, Joseph, my last-born, whom I have brought out of the wilderness of mine afflictions, may the Lord bless thee forever, for thy seed shall not utterly be destroyed. In verse 24 Lehi distinguishes the blessings the mighty one will bring in restoring much to both the house of Israel and JosephL's seed. I think that is not a promise made to or by Joseph E, but rather to JosephL by his father Lehi. Therefore, the mighty one will by a Lehite through JosephL, not Joseph Smith - possibly Mormon and/or a future Lehite prophet. I like Mormon. The title page of the Book of Mormon supports this: Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile….Which is to show unto the remnant of the house of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations Edited January 7, 2018 by Bernard Gui
JarMan Posted January 7, 2018 Author Posted January 7, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, RevTestament said: 2 Nephi 3:12... and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins, and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah, shall grow together, unto the confounding of false doctrines and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and bringing them to the knowledge of their fathers in the latter days, and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord. 13 And out of weakness he shall be made strong, in that day when my work shall commence among all my people, unto the restoring thee, O house of Israel, saith the Lord. 14 And thus prophesied Joseph, saying: Behold, that seer will the Lord bless; and they that seek to destroy him shall be confounded; for this promise, which I have obtained of the Lord, of the fruit of my loins, shall be fulfilled. Behold, I am sure of the fulfilling of this promise; 15 And his name shall be called after me; and it shall be after the name of his father. And he shall be like unto me; for the thing, which the Lord shall bring forth by his hand, by the power of the Lord shall bring my people unto salvation. 16 Yea, thus prophesied Joseph: I am sure of this thing, even as I am sure of the promise of Moses; for the Lord hath said unto me, I will preserve thy seed forever. 17 And the Lord hath said: I will raise up a Moses; and I will give power unto him in a rod; and I will give judgment unto him in writing. Yet I will not loose his tongue, that he shall speak much, for I will not make him mighty in speaking. But I will write unto him my law, by the finger of mine own hand; and I will make a spokesman for him. Per verse 17 the seer named Joseph after his father will NOT be mighty in speaking, but the Lord says he shall make a spokesman for him/Joseph, so the spokesman really cannot be Joseph. At one time many years ago I thought it may be referring to Sidney Rigdon, but notice the next verse: I think verse 17 is referring to Moses, not the seer named Joseph, because of the phrases "I will give power unto him in a rod" and "I will not make him mighty in speaking". 3 hours ago, RevTestament said: 18 And the Lord said unto me also: I will raise up unto the fruit of thy loins; and I will make for him a spokesman. And I, behold, I will give unto him that he shall write the writing of the fruit of thy loins, unto the fruit of thy loins; and the spokesman of thy loins shall declare it. This makes it sound like the spokesman is from the loins of Joseph, Lehi's son. However, verse 11 also seems to say this about the seer: I think this is still Joseph of Egypt talking (through Lehi). Thus, the writer and the spokesman will be from the loins of Joseph of Egypt. 3 hours ago, RevTestament said: 11 But a seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins; and unto him will I give power to bring forth my word unto the seed of thy loins—and not to the bringing forth my word only, saith the Lord, but to the convincing them of my word, which shall have already gone forth among them. However, I interpret verse 11 as the Lord still talking to Joseph of Egypt rather than Joseph, Lehi's son: 7 Yea, Joseph truly said: Thus saith the Lord unto me: A choice seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins So to me it is not clear in verse 18 if the "me" is Joseph of Egypt or Lehi, because verse 16 seems to be an end marker for the prophecy of Joseph of Egypt. I interpret the me as being Joseph of Egypt like in versse 15. The definitive marker for what Joseph of Egypt prophesied seems to occur at verse 22: I don't see an end marker in verse 16. The "Yea, thus prophesied Joseph" of verse 16 is similar to the "Yea, Joseph truly said" of verse 7 and the "For Joseph truly testified, saying" of verse 6. The end marker for Joseph of Egypt's prophecy comes in verse 22. So, in my view, everything from verse 6 to verse 21 looks be from Joseph of Egypt. 3 hours ago, RevTestament said: So it seems to me the speaker is either a descendant of the loins of Joseph of Egypt or Joseph of Lehi. I believe it is the former because it seems to be Lehi quoting Joseph of Egypt. However, the spokesman is clearly a different person than the seer who does not speak much. I agree with this, except that I would say the writer and the spokesman are definitively descendants of Joseph of Egypt. 3 hours ago, RevTestament said: Then at the end we have: 24 And there shall rise up one mighty among them, who shall do much good, both in word and in deed, being an instrument in the hands of God, with exceeding faith, to work mighty wonders, and do that thing which is great in the sight of God, unto the bringing to pass much restoration unto the house of Israel, and unto the seed of thy brethren. This seems to be hearkening back the beginning at verse 5 to the Branch who is not the Messiah in a probable chiastic form starting at verse 4: 5 Wherefore, Joseph truly saw our day. And he obtained a promise of the Lord, that out of the fruit of his loins the Lord God would raise up a righteous branch unto the house of Israel; not the Messiah, but a branch which was to be broken off, nevertheless, to be remembered in the covenants of the Lord that the Messiah should be made manifest unto them in the latter days, in the spirit of power, unto the bringing of them out of darkness unto light—yea, out of hidden darkness and out of captivity unto freedom. The question is, is this JS? or perhaps the spokesman? or someone else? Doctrine and Covenants 85:7 7 And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in aorder the house of God, and to arrange by blot the cinheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God; I take verse 24 to be referring to the choice seer from verse 7. Edit: having read Bernard GUI's essay, I take that back. The person from verse 24 seems to be a descendant of Joseph, son of Lehi. Edited January 7, 2018 by JarMan
JarMan Posted January 7, 2018 Author Posted January 7, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, MDalby said: This is what Bruce R McConkie said regarding these verses... This was my first reaction, as well, and in my mind the most obvious explanation. But in my next response to Robert I'll share some reasons this explanation could be in doubt. Edited January 7, 2018 by JarMan
JarMan Posted January 7, 2018 Author Posted January 7, 2018 32 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: While it is true that Mormon did not write the small plates of Nephi, he did write (edit) the book of Lehi, which was lost, and which covers that full territory. So he is effectively the editor of the whole book, as listed on the Title Page. Things gets tricky when we add in the Book of Ether and the sealed portion of the plates. Moroni composed the Book of Ether. It's been suggested that Ether is simply an abridgment of the sealed plates. If this is the case it's likely that the Book of Ether was translated by an earlier Nephite prophet and not Mormon or Moroni. And, to me, the Title Page seems to have been added by Moroni. So here's the scorecard as I see it: Books written by Mormon - Words of Mormon through Mormon plus the lost Book of Lehi (116 pages) Books not written by Mormon - Title Page, 1 Nephi through Omni, Ether, Moroni Books of questionable authorship - 2/3 sealed portion So it's feasible, and I would say likely, that Mormon wrote less than 1/3 of the Book of Mormon.
JarMan Posted January 7, 2018 Author Posted January 7, 2018 46 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: For what it's worth, here is my case for Mormon. There Shall Rise Up One Mighty Among Them In 2 Nephi 2, Joseph, son of Lehi, is given this promise by his father: 22 And now, behold, my son Joseph, after this manner did my father of old prophesy. 23 Wherefore, because of this covenant thou art blessed; for thy seed shall not be destroyed, for they shall hearken unto the words of the book. 24 And there shall rise up one mighty among them, who shall do much good, both in word and in deed, being an instrument in the hands of God, with exceeding faith, to work mighty wonders, and do that thing which is great in the sight of God, unto the bringing to pass much restoration unto the house of Israel, and unto the seed of thy brethren. There is some question who this "one mighty among them" will be. It's not Joseph Smith, because this one will be a descendant of Lehi. Joseph Fielding Smith and Spencer Kimball suggested it would be a future prophet to come out of the remnants of Lehi (a "Lamanite" or "Indian" prophet). Let me propose another candidate, one who we all know well but perhaps take for granted. How did Lehi describe this prophet? What are the criteria he set forth? • He did much good in word and deed. • He was an instrument in the hands of God. • He had exceeding faith. • He worked mighty wonders. • He did that thing which is great in the sight of God in bringing restoration to the house of Israel and the seed of Lehi. 1. He did much good in word and deed. I did speak unto my people, and did urge them with great energy, that they would stand boldly before the Lamanites and fight for their wives, and their children, and their houses, and their homes. And my words did arouse them somewhat to vigor, insomuch that they did not flee from before the Lamanites, but did stand with boldness against them. And it came to pass that the Lord did say unto me: Cry unto this people—Repent ye, and come unto me, and be ye baptized, and build up again my church, and ye shall be spared. And I did cry unto this people, but it was in vain; and they did not realize that it was the Lord that had spared them, and granted unto them a chance for repentance. And behold they did harden their hearts against the Lord their God. Behold, I had led them, notwithstanding their wickedness I had led them many times to battle, and had loved them, according to the love of God which was in me, with all my heart; and my soul had been poured out in prayer unto my God all the day long for them; nevertheless, it was without faith, because of the hardness of their hearts. And thrice have I delivered them out of the hands of their enemies, and they have repented not of their sins. I did go forth among the Nephites, and did repent of the oath which I had made that I would no more assist them; and they gave me command again of their armies, for they looked upon me as though I could deliver them from their afflictions. But behold, I was without hope, for I knew the judgments of the Lord which should come upon them. 2. He was an instrument in the hands of God. And this is the commandment which I have received; and behold, they shall come forth according to the commandment of the Lord, when he shall see fit, in his wisdom. And I, being fifteen years of age and being somewhat of a sober mind, therefore I was visited of the Lord, and tasted and knew of the goodness of Jesus. And I did endeavor to preach unto this people, but my mouth was shut, and I was forbidden that I should preach unto them. And I do this for a wise purpose; for thus it whispereth me, according to the workings of the Spirit of the Lord which is in me. And now, I do not know all things; but the Lord knoweth all things which are to come; wherefore, he worketh in me to do according to his will. 3. He had exceeding faith. And the things which are upon these plates pleasing me, because of the prophecies of the coming of Christ; and my fathers knowing that many of them have been fulfilled; yea, and I also know that as many things as have been prophesied concerning us down to this day have been fulfilled, and as many as go beyond this day must surely come to pass. And it came to pass that when I, Mormon, saw their lamentation and their mourning and their sorrow before the Lord, my heart did begin to rejoice within me, knowing the mercies and the long-suffering of the Lord, therefore supposing that he would be merciful unto them that they would again become a righteous people. And wo is me because of their wickedness; for my heart has been filled with sorrow because of their wickedness, all my days; nevertheless, I know that I shall be lifted up at the last day. If it so be that ye believe in Christ, and are baptized, first with water, then with fire and with the Holy Ghost, following the example of our Savior, according to that which he hath commanded us, it shall be well with you in the day of judgment. 4. He worked mighty wonders. [Ammaron] came unto me, (I being about ten years of age, and I began to be learned somewhat after the manner of the learning of my people) and Ammaron said unto me: I perceive that thou art a sober child, and art quick to observe; Therefore, when ye are about twenty and four years old I would that ye should remember the things that ye have observed concerning this people; and when ye are of that age go to the land Antum, unto a hill which shall be called Shim; and there have I deposited unto the Lord all the sacred engravings concerning this people. Notwithstanding I being young, was large in stature; therefore the people of Nephi appointed me that I should be their leader, or the leader of their armies. Therefore it came to pass that in my sixteenth year I did go forth at the head of an army of the Nephites, against the Lamanites. And now, the Lamanites had a king, and his name was Aaron; and he came against us with an army of forty and four thousand. And behold, I withstood him with forty and two thousand. And it came to pass that I beat him with my army that he fled before me. And behold, ye shall take the plates of Nephi unto yourself, and the remainder shall ye leave in the place where they are; and ye shall engrave on the plates of Nephi all the things that ye have observed concerning this people. And now I, Mormon, seeing that the Lamanites were about to overthrow the land, therefore I did go to the hill Shim, and did take up all the records which Ammaron had hid up unto the Lord. And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni. 5. He did that thing which is great in the sight of God in bringing the restoration to the house of Israel and the seed of Lehi. Therefore I write unto you, Gentiles, and also unto you, house of Israel, when the work shall commence, that ye shall be about to prepare to return to the land of your inheritance; Yea, behold, I write unto all the ends of the earth; yea, unto you, twelve tribes of Israel, who shall be judged according to your works by the twelve whom Jesus chose to be his disciples in the land of Jerusalem. And I write also unto the remnant of this people, who shall also be judged by the twelve whom Jesus chose in this land; and they shall be judged by the other twelve whom Jesus chose in the land of Jerusalem. And these things doth the Spirit manifest unto me; therefore I write unto you all. And for this cause I write unto you, that ye may know that ye must all stand before the judgment-seat of Christ, yea, every soul who belongs to the whole human family of Adam; and ye must stand to be judged of your works, whether they be good or evil; And also that ye may believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, which ye shall have among you; and also that the Jews, the covenant people of the Lord, shall have other witness besides him whom they saw and heard, that Jesus, whom they slew, was the very Christ and the very God. And I would that I could persuade all ye ends of the earth to repent and prepare to stand before the judgment-seat of Christ. And also that a knowledge of these things must come unto the remnant of these people, and also unto the Gentiles, who the Lord hath said should scatter this people.... This I speak unto their seed, and also to the Gentiles who have care for the house of Israel, that realize and know from whence their blessings come. For I know that such will sorrow for the calamity of the house of Israel; yea, they will sorrow for the destruction of this people; they will sorrow that this people had not repented that they might have been clasped in the arms of Jesus. Now these things are written unto the remnant of the house of Jacob; and they are written after this manner, because it is known of God that wickedness will not bring them forth unto them; and they are to be hid up unto the Lord that they may come forth in his own due time. And behold, they shall go unto the unbelieving of the Jews; and for this intent shall they go—that they may be persuaded that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God; that the Father may bring about, through his most Beloved, his great and eternal purpose, in restoring the Jews, or all the house of Israel, to the land of their inheritance, which the Lord their God hath given them, unto the fulfilling of his covenant; And also that the seed of this people may more fully believe his gospel, which shall go forth unto them from the Gentiles; for this people shall be scattered, and shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us, yea, even that which hath been among the Lamanites, and this because of their unbelief and idolatry. And ye will also know that ye are a remnant of the seed of Jacob; therefore ye are numbered among the people of the first covenant; and if it so be that ye believe in Christ, and are baptized, first with water, then with fire and with the Holy Ghost, following the example of our Savior, according to that which he hath commanded us, it shall be well with you in the day of judgment. And as surely as the Lord liveth, will he gather in from the four quarters of the earth all the remnant of the seed of Jacob, who are scattered abroad upon all the face of the earth. And as he hath covenanted with all the house of Jacob, even so shall the covenant wherewith he hath covenanted with the house of Jacob be fulfilled in his own due time, unto the restoring all the house of Jacob unto the knowledge of the covenant that he hath covenanted with them. And then shall they know their Redeemer, who is Jesus Christ, the Son of God; and then shall they be gathered in from the four quarters of the earth unto their own lands, from whence they have been dispersed; yea, as the Lord liveth so shall it be. Yes, I'm talking about that giant of a Nephite, the Prophet Mormon. As a boy, he was a leader of men. As a man, he was one of the greatest prophets of God. As a prophet, he was fearless in his faith and secure in his knowledge. As a warrior, he gave his life in defense of his people. As a father, he inspired greatness in his son Moroni. As a historian, he was entrusted to make and preserve the record of his people that became the foundation of the Restoration. Truly, he was "one mighty among them." Granted, some may point out that he claimed to be a descendant of Nephi, not Joseph, but it is reasonable to conclude that the descendants of the faithful Lehites (Nephi, Sam, Joseph, Jacob, and Zoram) intermarried and all could claim to be descended from Nephi. In fact, all the descendants of those Lehi sons became grouped under the head of Nephi. But is it not possible that this man was the one prophesied to come and bring restoration to Lehi's family? I understand the references to Joseph Smith earlier in the chapter, but this promise was about a descendant of Joseph, son of Lehi. Noting the period at the end of verse 22 and the pivot to his son in verse 23, it looks to me that Lehi has ended his quotation of the prophesy of Joseph of Egypt, and then moves on to promise that another prophet will be raised from the descendants of Lehi's son Joseph to bless his seed; Joseph Smith was not a Lehite. I came to this interpretation by carefully considering the context. I agree that Joseph Smith is the prophet foretold in the verses prior to 22. In previous verses, the words of Joseph of Egypt (JosephE) are set off by attribution phrases and colons. In my view, the period in verse 22 is a full stop; the quoting is over. Verse 21 is the end of JosephE's words. Then in verses 23, 24, and 25 Lehi pivots back to his son Joseph (JosephL). He makes his own promise (similar to and patterned after that of their father JosephE) to his son JosephL. It is his final blessing to this faithful son. Because of the covenant made with JosephE, JosephL will also be blessed. His seed shall not be destroyed because they will accept the message of the book. A mighty one will rise from "them" - the seed of JosephL in the verse 23 - who will participate in the restoration to the Jews and Lehites. I think this was fulfilled in the prophet Mormon. The criteria fit him to a T. This is supposedly a SW Kimball quote that deals with the prophecy. It's referenced in a GC talk (and parts quoted) that was given in the 1970s but I’ve only found the entire quote on a separate site that's not very pro-Mormon so take it for what it's worth. “The Lamanites must rise in majesty and power.” (Conference Reports, Oct. 1947) “The Lamanites must rise in majesty and power. We must look forward to the day when they will be “white and delightsome” (2 Ne. 5:21; 2 Ne. 30:6), sharing the freedoms and blessings which we enjoy; when they shall have economic security, culture, refinement, and education; when they shall be operating farms and businesses and industries and shall be occupied in the professions and in teaching; when they shall be organized into wards and stakes of Zion, furnishing much of their own leadership; when they shall build and occupy and fill the temples, and serve in them as the natives are now serving in the Hawaiian Temple where I found last year the entire service conducted by them and done perfectly. And in the day when their prophet shall come, one shall rise. . . mighty among them . . . being an instrument in the hands of God, with exceeding faith, to work mighty wonders (2 Ne. 3:24).” Since it is presented as a prophecy, it was fulfilled as the book was introduced to the Lehites (JosephL and his brethren). Here is the "one" in verses 22-24....the descendant of JosephL.... 21 And now, behold, my son Joseph, after this manner did my father of old prophesy. 23 Wherefore, because of this covenant thou art blessed; for thy seed shall not be destroyed, for they shall hearken unto the words of the book. 24 And there shall rise up one mighty among them, who shall do much good, both in word and in deed, being an instrument in the hands of God, with exceeding faith, to work mighty wonders, and do that thing which is great in the sight of God, unto the bringing to pass much restoration unto the house of Israel, and unto the seed of thy brethren. Changing the period in verse 22 to a comma and adding the quotation marks do change the intent and meaning of 24 and 25. It is a possible reading. On the other hand, the promise of surviving seed was one that Lehi gave to his sons on several occasions and was a recurring theme throughout the Book of Mormon. That was never an issue with JosephE as far as I can determine. JosephL doesn't necessarily come after the book - that his seed will "hearken to the book," which is the Book of Mormon. I don't see 23 and 24 being a chronological order. One could interpret "And" at the beginning of 24 as "then," or just as another part of the prophecy. This is not Joseph Smith. Is this one yet to come from among the Lehites? I believe the current punctuation and editing are sound. 23 and 24 are clearly Lehi's words to his son JosephL. SWK and JFS saw it that way. They thought the one would be a future Native American. That could be, but I think Mormon is the perfect candidate. Verse 23 repeats Lehi's promise given to JosephL in verse 3, which makes these final verses a more proper summary and conclusion to his personal blessing: 3 And now, Joseph, my last-born, whom I have brought out of the wilderness of mine afflictions, may the Lord bless thee forever, for thy seed shall not utterly be destroyed. In verse 24 Lehi distinguishes the blessings the mighty one will bring in restoring much to both the house of Israel and JosephL's seed. I think that is not a promise made to or by Joseph E, but rather to JosephL by his father Lehi. Therefore, the mighty one will by a Lehite through JosephL, not Joseph Smith - possibly Mormon and/or a future Lehite prophet. I like Mormon. The title page of the Book of Mormon supports this: Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile….Which is to show unto the remnant of the house of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations Thanks for sharing this. I agree with your assessment that the person in verse 22 is a descendant of Joseph, son of Lehi. I also think you make a good case for that person being Mormon, though I am open to alternate interpretations. 1
JarMan Posted January 7, 2018 Author Posted January 7, 2018 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: Can we possibly find room in these interpretations for a translator prior to Joseph Smith Jr? One from the 16th or 17th century? What would Elder McConkie have done with the textual evidence we now have from Carmack & Skousen? Provided he took it seriously. Of course this is where I am headed. I'd like this current discussion to play out a little bit more, though, before I present some interesting evidence. 1
Glenn101 Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 3 hours ago, JarMan said: I read verse 17 as referring to Moses and Aaron because of the phrase, "I will give power unto him in a rod". It seems to be setting up verse 18 in order to show a different writer/spokesman duo. After rereading the chapter and that paragraph, I agree with you.
RevTestament Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 3 hours ago, JarMan said: I think verse 17 is referring to Moses, not the seer named Joseph, because of the phrases "I will give power unto him in a rod" and "I will not make him mighty in speaking". *** I think this is still Joseph of Egypt talking (through Lehi). Thus, the writer and the spokesman will be from the loins of Joseph of Egypt. So here is the problem I have with what I hear you saying. I hear you saying Moses is the writer, and the writer is from the loins of Joseph of Egypt. However, Moses of Egypt was a Levite. So absent some intermarrying, Moses would not be a descendant of Joseph. The Bible certainly doesn't support that idea, and the ancient Hebrews wouldn't have since they counted descendancy through the patriarchal line. Moses was a Levite, and was not of Ephraim or Manasseh.
Glenn101 Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 4 hours ago, JarMan said: Joseph Smith didn't literally write anything (not much, at least) so that is a mark against him being the writer. Plus he didn't really need a spokesman since he was already very articulate. As far as Sidney being the spokesman, he seems to be a marginal candidate for this. I can't say I'm intimately familiar with this speeches or talks, but I know that he was very biblically oriented because of his experience as a preacher. I don't know how much he championed the Book of Mormon but my guess is that he mostly stuck to his biblical sermons. (I'm happy to be corrected on this if someone has a better feel for his teachings.) Also, he wasn't really a major Mormon figure in the grand scheme of things. At times he seems to have been more of a hindrance than a help to Joseph. We would have to understand what the Lord meant by writer in that case, just as we can debate the semantics of "translate" as it pertains to the Book of Mormon. In any event Sidney was actually called to be a spokesman to the Church in D&C 100:9-11. Glenn
Glenn101 Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Can we possibly find room in these interpretations for a translator prior to Joseph Smith Jr? One from the 16th or 17th century? What would Elder McConkie have done with the textual evidence we now have from Carmack & Skousen? Provided he took it seriously. Is there any reason to look for a middle man type of translator? I am pretty sure that God and the Holy Ghost understand and can speak Early Middle English fluently. Glenn
Robert F. Smith Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 45 minutes ago, Glenn101 said: Is there any reason to look for a middle man type of translator? I am pretty sure that God and the Holy Ghost understand and can speak Early Middle English fluently. Glenn I consider each person in that chain of events equally important, and believe that God does as well. Moses is not more important than Joseph Smith Jr, and Joseph-who-was-sold-into-Egypt was not more important then Brigham Young, Israel not less important than Abraham, etc. The guy you term a "middle man" rendered the text into English, while Joseph Smith merely read it off to his scribes. Devaluing someone in that way seems to cheapen the value of revelation.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 4 hours ago, JarMan said: Things gets tricky when we add in the Book of Ether and the sealed portion of the plates. Moroni composed the Book of Ether. It's been suggested that Ether is simply an abridgment of the sealed plates. If this is the case it's likely that the Book of Ether was translated by an earlier Nephite prophet and not Mormon or Moroni. And, to me, the Title Page seems to have been added by Moroni. So here's the scorecard as I see it: Books written by Mormon - Words of Mormon through Mormon plus the lost Book of Lehi (116 pages) Books not written by Mormon - Title Page, 1 Nephi through Omni, Ether, Moroni A good summary. 4 hours ago, JarMan said: Books of questionable authorship - 2/3 sealed portion So it's feasible, and I would say likely, that Mormon wrote less than 1/3 of the Book of Mormon. Others claim that the sealed portion is only 1/3, which would affect your overall conclusion here.
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