mfbukowski Posted January 6, 2018 Posted January 6, 2018 24 minutes ago, smac97 said: I suppose. However, there appears to be a strain of thought amongst some folks in the Church that we needn't listen to the prophets and apostles, nor follow their counsel, until and unless what they have said is formally canonized in scripture. Perhaps the Proclamation is, in part, intended to help members of the Church overcome this misunderstanding. Thanks, -Smac Agree completely and also agree that this helps the whole notion that we need both to follow the prophets and develop our own testimonies of what applies directly to our personal lives and testimonies- orthopraxis vs orthodoxy. We know that apostles have erred before so it is a two-edged sword which prevents us from being seen as a "cult" on one hand and enables us to think for ourselves and yet follow that God has in store for us individually.
rockpond Posted January 6, 2018 Posted January 6, 2018 39 minutes ago, smac97 said: I suppose. However, there appears to be a strain of thought amongst some folks in the Church that we needn't listen to the prophets and apostles, nor follow their counsel, until and unless what they have said is formally canonized in scripture. Perhaps the Proclamation is, in part, intended to help members of the Church overcome this misunderstanding. Thanks, -Smac Well, I’m in the camp of not being entirely clear what canonizing does or doesn’t do for a particular text. Especially in our church where all texts either come directly from the Brethren receive their imprimatur. I haven’t come across any strain of thought in the church that suggests we shouldn’t listen to the prophets and apostles. As for following that counsel, there seem to be those in the church who believe it should be followed no matter what and others who feel that we each have a responsibility to seek a confirmation of the Spirit as to whether or not a particular counsel is true and/or applies to our individual life. I’m in that latter group (and canonization is not really relevant). 1
CV75 Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 22 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Love this! This is the key to the future. We need to adapt our language to make it open to those who want to become the best humans we can become which is - yes- a Humanist ideal but guess what- - it is also an LDS ideal. Focusing on the paradigm of a Perfected Human who can communicate with his children through the feelings of their hearts, and finding a purpose in life, is the key in my opinion to communicate to the secular folks who are looking for SOMETHING to believe in, something greater than themselves. When you see Jesus Christ as such a being- the compassionate ideal Human who can hear your needs and thoughts because he has been through it all, and who is in constant touch with our common Father of our spirits -- This to me could easily become the paradigm for all who have feelings left to accept the spirit. They are tired of mumbo jumbo and tired of "religion" that doesn't make sense, but to me keeping the explanations on a family level and letting them know that religion is what gives you purpose in life and seeing this paradigm as just that- a living and perfect paradigm for humans to understand where they came from, what life is for, and where one goes when it ends, is the perfect living paradigm for all. In my opinion, we just need to see it that way and communicate it that way. It is a way of LIFE, something one lives every day and that is capable of growing with you as your life changes and in trials, in is able to be flexible to change along with the notion of orthopraxis rather than orthodoxy LIVE the lifestyle and you will see it works for you. Make the sacrifices necessary and you will feel the difference. It is health, it is confidence and love of God and your fellow man, it is fellowship and healing. All the silly little customs become irrelevant and the gospel of Jesus Christ takes the front of the stage. Follow the path of Life and not the path of Death- which most now in the world are living. God has tried and true paradigms of behavior we call the "commandments". They have worked for thousands of years. You can see them as God given, as socially evolved, or both. They work, that is really all that matters. They are living rules for having a happy life. Anyway, I will stop preaching. I kind of like this church. And thus we have the "living life" ... I think the canon certainly has a sacred place in that, but becomes useless when held to as a scared fetish of some kind, or as the only vessel containing the "living waters." After all, who are the "living fountains of waters" and "lively stones" -- plural -- of the living water, and the living stone? 1
CV75 Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 22 hours ago, rockpond said: I agree and I did not mean to imply that continuing revelation required or was dependent on continuing canonization. While I love and look forward to general conference and study then ponder those messages, there is still something in me that is excited at the thought of an ever expanding D&C. Does it change the message/importance of the Family Proclamation, the Living Christ testimony of the apostles, or any other text that could be inserted therein? Not really. At least not for me. I certainly agree that adding extant and previously published text to the cannon would be exciting. Like Section 138, it would unitedly commit the saints to further understanding of how the Lord performs the necessary labors for the salvation of mankind. Like OD-1 and OD-2, it would unitedly commit the saints to significant shifts in how the restored keys are exercised to perform these labors. As essential as they are for instruction and testimony, things like the Proclamation and the Living Christ testimony do not represent new or further understanding, nor do they reflect a shift in how the priesthood keys are used. I think the saints nonetheless unitedly commit to their content by sustaining the Church and her leaders.
CV75 Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 22 hours ago, rockpond said: Well, I’m in the camp of not being entirely clear what canonizing does or doesn’t do for a particular text. Especially in our church where all texts either come directly from the Brethren receive their imprimatur. I think it has to do with common consent and binding the saints in a united commitment to abide by the new scriptures (a new covenant so to speak; "new" for the reasons I mentioned above) from that day forward. After that, people commit to the same through baptism. 1
Calm Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 3 hours ago, CV75 said: I certainly agree that adding extant and previously published text to the cannon would be exciting. Like Section 138, it would unitedly commit the saints to further understanding of how the Lord performs the necessary labors for the salvation of mankind. Like OD-1 and OD-2, it would unitedly commit the saints to significant shifts in how the restored keys are exercised to perform these labors. As essential as they are for instruction and testimony, things like the Proclamation and the Living Christ testimony do not represent new or further understanding, nor do they reflect a shift in how the priesthood keys are used. I think the saints nonetheless unitedly commit to their content by sustaining the Church and her leaders. Are there any texts that are commonly known and often referred to as scripture such as visions that could easily be added to the canon outside the Proclamation and Living Christ? The latter may not add new doctrine, but itwould be consistent with other scripture that is in essence a testimonial witness.
CV75 Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 1 hour ago, Calm said: Are there any texts that are commonly known and often referred to as scripture such as visions that could easily be added to the canon outside the Proclamation and Living Christ? The latter may not add new doctrine, but itwould be consistent with other scripture that is in essence a testimonial witness. I recall there used to be formal Christmas and Easter messages from the First Presidency in the past, but these seem to have been replaced with a broader media approach that seems more inclusive in that members are invited to do things to witness of the Savior, such as #LighttheWorld. I also recall some visions mentioned in the manuals, For example, the ancestors of Joseph Smith having dreams about a future prophet, and a couple of other visions such as when by Joseph F. Smith visited by Joseph Smith, and George Albert Smith visited by George A. Smith, and so forth. Parley P. Pratt includes a couple in his autobiography. I'm not sure what would qualify them to be includes as canon, except they changed how we view or do things generally -- which the Book or Mormon, D&C and Pearl of Great Price (and the examples I mentioned above) certainly did. The Bible was made canon despite its faults and lack of plain and precious doctrine -- not that it is all bad! It preserved enough of Christianity until it could be restored, and was sufficient to inspire Joseph Smith to seek wisdom. The latter-day canon that followed Joseph's organization of the Church seems to set the biblical record straight for the saints, so I think that would be one purpose for the BoM/D&C/PoGP material improving on what can be gained from any complementary Bible passages. i see a distinction between "scripture" and "canon" in that scripture is a broader category as discerned or determined by the individual to be from the Holy Ghost, while canon is a narrow, written compilation determined by the prophets and sustained whole community. So the canon is "open" while the revelation is "continuing" and the revelation continues as long as the church is "living."
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