One true church - Virtue or Vice?

[kiwi57]

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Sure, there are flaws on the opposite perspective for those that believe Mormonism is the one false religion.  

No, I'm not talking about any such straw man. I'm talking about the fact that your assumptions have corollaries. The "opposite perspective" isn't held by some imaginary people who "believe Mormonism is the one false religion;" rather, it is manifested by those who suppose that there can't be a "one true religion," and therefore that anyone who believes there is one must have something wrong with them.

It is a nasty group stereotype to assume that those who accept the Lord's dictum that this is "the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased" must ipso facto be "hyperjudgmental" or something. Isn't that very assumption a "hyperjudgmental" one? Don't you assume that your non-belief in any one true church is "superior" to the belief that there is one? If not, why do you hold it, and why are you so assiduously proselytizing for it?

[hope_for_things]

39 minutes ago, kiwi57 said:

No, I'm not talking about any such straw man. I'm talking about the fact that your assumptions have corollaries. The "opposite perspective" isn't held by some imaginary people who "believe Mormonism is the one false religion;" rather, it is manifested by those who suppose that there can't be a "one true religion," and therefore that anyone who believes there is one must have something wrong with them.

It is a nasty group stereotype to assume that those who accept the Lord's dictum that this is "the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased" must ipso facto be "hyperjudgmental" or something. Isn't that very assumption a "hyperjudgmental" one? Don't you assume that your non-belief in any one true church is "superior" to the belief that there is one? If not, why do you hold it, and why are you so assiduously proselytizing for it?

The opposite to a belief that Mormonism is the one true religion is a belief that Mormonism is the one false religion.  Everyone else is somewhere in between those two polls.  A belief that no one true religion exists is one of many beliefs in the in between space.  

I’m just making observations about some of the negative outcomes that I believe are related to this claim.  If you want to participate in the commentary, feel free, I’m trying to discuss in a respectful manner.  

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

The kingdom should include everyone not just members.  The idea of a returned Christ can be a metaphorical or personal return of Christ in a transformational individual sense.  

Neither in LDS scripture. It is a stretch even for general Christianity. 

Edited November 28, 2017 by The Nehor

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

 I’m just making observations about some of the negative outcomes that I believe are related to this claim.  

When dealing with fallen mortal beings there are always positives and negatives.

If the primary negative of exclusivity is that those in disagreement with truth feel unincluded I think that is just a natural consequence, not an error to be corrected.

Your list of negatives may even be accurate, but not one of them is worth giving up an iota of truth.  There IS one true Church, and it needs to hold to that truth to remain such. 

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Words got garbled on my last reply, sorry. I just wanted you to share any thoughts on the pros/cons being discussed.  Would you change anything to try and mitigate some of the cons?

God has granted me special access to spiritual insight - via the Holy Ghost and Priesthood authority

Pretty much in our canon.

My beliefs are superior or more complete because they are in alignment with God

Sounds good to me unless it leads to pride.

Little to no critical thinking of the advice given by church leaders

It actually takes a fair bit of thinking to implement counsel and adapt it to our individual circumstances.

An underlying mistrust of the secular and scientific

We live in a fallen world where almost everything is wrong. Distrust should be fairly normal. Contempt of anything that does not bear the Church seal is a bridge too far and is probably a symptom of laziness. We are told to seek wisdom out of the best books. I think that can be expanded to an understanding of the Universe, aesthetic pursuits, and even out simple desires for pleasure.

Shunning of family members and friends who are seen as a threat

I hear about this all the time but in my experience as a ward missionary and generally in the church people who complain about being shunned often need to be shunned. I have heard codependent and abusive family members complain that the bishop or whoever told their whatever to avoid them. Generally it was good advice. In other cases the person being shunned is just a jerk about the church. In other cases the member is a jerk and uses their faith as an excuse to cut people out. I don't really have a problem with jerks getting cut out of people's lives.

Ignorance of broader religious scholarship, biblical and other religions are seen as inferior or threatening

I am not sure why are critics think LDS have time to become phd students in theology in our spare time. Few people harp on Catholics that have never read Augustine but LDS who have not read Spinoza are just willfully ignorant. Members who are interested study it on an amateur or sometimes even professional level. If you accept the LDS gospel then yes, all other religions are inferior in understanding the nature of existence. As to other religions being threatening some actually are threats. Ministers of other faiths often led the mobs that used to attack us. Some faiths still hold meetings about our cultish attributes. We should not return railing for railing but a healthy skepticism of them is, well, healthy.

Hyperjudgmental - people, choices, ideas, everything is judged through a Mormon lens to determine if it fits the ideal or threatens it

That sounds healthy too. Things should be filtered through our value system. Now this can be corrupted into doing the 'Mormon thing' where it is more a matter of looking good to other members or a self-serving form of pride where you pat yourself on the back for your choices but there are scriptural warnings about that.

[hope_for_things]

34 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Neither in LDS scripture. It is a stretch even for general Christianity. 

Different people, different interpretations.  Variety is the spice of life.  

[hope_for_things]

28 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

When dealing with fallen mortal beings there are always positives and negatives.

If the primary negative of exclusivity is that those in disagreement with truth feel unincluded I think that is just a natural consequence, not an error to be corrected.

Your list of negatives may even be accurate, but not one of them is worth giving up an iota of truth.  There IS one true Church, and it needs to hold to that truth to remain such. 

For me, the central messages of the gospel, love, service, forgiveness, sacrifice, none of these have anything to do with exclusivity or authority claims.  For me, these concepts are the truth of the gospel that I’m holding on to.  

[The Nehor]

39 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Different people, different interpretations.  Variety is the spice of life.  

Not all interpretations are created equal. Some take such liberty with the text that they are rightly called insane. The idea that the Second Coming is metaphorical contradicts just about everything in scripture. It implies that the prophets on two continents and those who knew the Savior personally did not understand what he was saying. It means Jesus was horrible at explaining things (so not perfect?) to the point that everyone misunderstood him until we moderns came along and figured it out on our own. It is a silly reading.

[Bobbieaware]

3 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

For me, the central messages of the gospel, love, service, forgiveness, sacrifice, none of these have anything to do with exclusivity or authority claims.  For me, these concepts are the truth of the gospel that I’m holding on to.  

Seems a logical move for you would be to see if you can find a place among the Unitarian Universalists. 

[CV75]

6 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

For me, the central messages of the gospel, love, service, forgiveness, sacrifice, none of these have anything to do with exclusivity or authority claims.  For me, these concepts are the truth of the gospel that I’m holding on to.  

That is nice, but I'm not sure how realistic it is to seek to strip away the other LDS beliefs for the sake of helping the few who display the "vices" you listed in the OP. Taking up residence in the "borderland" betrays a rejection of the very doctrine that, if properly understood, would alleviate the concerns you expressed (both for them and for you).

[hope_for_things]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

God has granted me special access to spiritual insight - via the Holy Ghost and Priesthood authority

Pretty much in our canon.

My beliefs are superior or more complete because they are in alignment with God

Sounds good to me unless it leads to pride.

Little to no critical thinking of the advice given by church leaders

It actually takes a fair bit of thinking to implement counsel and adapt it to our individual circumstances.

An underlying mistrust of the secular and scientific

We live in a fallen world where almost everything is wrong. Distrust should be fairly normal. Contempt of anything that does not bear the Church seal is a bridge too far and is probably a symptom of laziness. We are told to seek wisdom out of the best books. I think that can be expanded to an understanding of the Universe, aesthetic pursuits, and even out simple desires for pleasure.

Shunning of family members and friends who are seen as a threat

I hear about this all the time but in my experience as a ward missionary and generally in the church people who complain about being shunned often need to be shunned. I have heard codependent and abusive family members complain that the bishop or whoever told their whatever to avoid them. Generally it was good advice. In other cases the person being shunned is just a jerk about the church. In other cases the member is a jerk and uses their faith as an excuse to cut people out. I don't really have a problem with jerks getting cut out of people's lives.

Ignorance of broader religious scholarship, biblical and other religions are seen as inferior or threatening

I am not sure why are critics think LDS have time to become phd students in theology in our spare time. Few people harp on Catholics that have never read Augustine but LDS who have not read Spinoza are just willfully ignorant. Members who are interested study it on an amateur or sometimes even professional level. If you accept the LDS gospel then yes, all other religions are inferior in understanding the nature of existence. As to other religions being threatening some actually are threats. Ministers of other faiths often led the mobs that used to attack us. Some faiths still hold meetings about our cultish attributes. We should not return railing for railing but a healthy skepticism of them is, well, healthy.

Hyperjudgmental - people, choices, ideas, everything is judged through a Mormon lens to determine if it fits the ideal or threatens it

That sounds healthy too. Things should be filtered through our value system. Now this can be corrupted into doing the 'Mormon thing' where it is more a matter of looking good to other members or a self-serving form of pride where you pat yourself on the back for your choices but there are scriptural warnings about that.

I appreciate your honesty in commenting on these points.  

[hope_for_things]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Not all interpretations are created equal. Some take such liberty with the text that they are rightly called insane. The idea that the Second Coming is metaphorical contradicts just about everything in scripture. It implies that the prophets on two continents and those who knew the Savior personally did not understand what he was saying. It means Jesus was horrible at explaining things (so not perfect?) to the point that everyone misunderstood him until we moderns came along and figured it out on our own. It is a silly reading.

I guess I could turn around and call your interpretation insane and silly too, but I won't do that.  Suffice it to say that there are different perspectives out there.  

[hope_for_things]

4 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

Seems a logical move for you would be to see if you can find a place among the Unitarian Universalists. 

Your comment seems to best fall into either bullet #4, the shunning of family and friends who are seen as a threat, or #7 the hyperjudgmental one.  

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, hope_for_things said:

Your comment seems to best fall into either bullet #4, the shunning of family and friends who are seen as a threat, or #7 the hyperjudgmental one.  

I saw neither of those in Bobbieaware's comment.  Merely the suggestion that if the truth and exclusivity claims of the LDS Church don't fit there might be an alternative more inclusive religion out there.  That is neither shunning nor hyperjudgemental.

[hope_for_things]

57 minutes ago, CV75 said:

That is nice, but I'm not sure how realistic it is to seek to strip away the other LDS beliefs for the sake of helping the few who display the "vices" you listed in the OP. Taking up residence in the "borderland" betrays a rejection of the very doctrine that, if properly understood, would alleviate the concerns you expressed (both for them and for you).

I don't think its a few that display the vices, I think its an overwhelming majority.  Its wisdom to re-evaluate the key priorities and principles of the gospel message and to make sure emphasis is being placed on those things that matter most.  There are many practices that get out of alignment over time, and this seems to be the backbone of the restoration movement in the first place.  Even while Joseph was alive he was frequently chastising the saints for one failure or another.  

[hope_for_things]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I saw neither of those in Bobbieaware's comment.  Merely the suggestion that if the truth and exclusivity claims of the LDS Church don't fit there might be an alternative more inclusive religion out there.  That is neither shunning nor hyperjudgemental.

Since I never asked for advice on which church to attend, making the implication that my ideas don't fit with the group and might fit better somewhere else, that isn't a little passive aggressive?  

[CV75]

31 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I don't think its a few that display the vices, I think its an overwhelming majority.  Its wisdom to re-evaluate the key priorities and principles of the gospel message and to make sure emphasis is being placed on those things that matter most.  There are many practices that get out of alignment over time, and this seems to be the backbone of the restoration movement in the first place.  Even while Joseph was alive he was frequently chastising the saints for one failure or another.  

Well now that seems a bit of an extreme perspective… and you’re still on the outside, unable to effectively influence the “overwhelming majority.”

[Bobbieaware]

36 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Your comment seems to best fall into either bullet #4, the shunning of family and friends who are seen as a threat, or #7 the hyperjudgmental one.  

What a zinger! Even so, I wonder why those who no longer believe the LDS Church is the one true restored Church of Christ continue to hang on while earnestly striving to get others to lose their testimonies as well? What sort of category does that kind of spiritually aggressive behavior fall into?

[The Nehor]

46 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I guess I could turn around and call your interpretation insane and silly too, but I won't do that.  Suffice it to say that there are different perspectives out there.  

You could but you would be wrong. You are playing a false equivalency thing here.

[hope_for_things]

4 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Well now that seems a bit of an extreme perspective… and you’re still on the outside, unable to effectively influence the “overwhelming majority.”

Trying to dismiss someone else's points by calling them extreme and/or attempting to make this personal don't really enable good discussion and dialogue.  

[hope_for_things]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

You could but you would be wrong. You are playing a false equivalency thing here.

Apparently you think its appropriate to use the tactics of hyperbole and dismissal because the correctness of your position justifies it, while others who are "wrong" shouldn't use those same tactics.  The key difference being how you're right and I'm wrong.  

[hope_for_things]

10 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

What a zinger! Even so, I wonder why those who no longer believe the LDS Church is the one true restored Church of Christ continue to hang on while earnestly striving to get others to lose their testimonies as well? What sort of category does that kind of spiritually aggressive behavior fall into?

This doesn't seem like a productive conversation to have, making things personal and making accusations about my motivations.  

[CV75]

24 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Trying to dismiss someone else's points by calling them extreme and/or attempting to make this personal don't really enable good discussion and dialogue.  

I'm not dismissing them -- you used the term yourself in describing the "overwhelming majority" of LDS , twice:

Posted 21 hours ago

Posted 21 hours ago

Yet I continued to dialogue with you.

So, good luck with all that!

[filovirus]

14 hours ago, Calm said:

If by "does not mean it is the only way to salvation" you mean, one does not have to be a devout member all one's life and all postmortality, but sometime prior to final judgment (whatever that is) one must accept the fullness of God's Gospel including all the covenants and ordinances God has commanded, I would agree.  I believe the solitary, singular path to the top of the Mountain has to be taken at some point, one can't just talk about it or just settle for similar path, they will become a full and willing member of the eternal organization/community of which The Church of Jesus Christ is the current manifestation in mortality.  Many paths head that way, but eventually they join into the Way of Christ or wander off into dark and lonely ways heading nowhere.

Yes. Thank you for summarizing what I could not.

[hope_for_things]

31 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I'm not dismissing them -- you used the term yourself in describing the "overwhelming majority" of LDS , twice:

Posted 21 hours ago

 

Posted 21 hours ago

 

Yet I continued to dialogue with you.

So, good luck with all that!

I guess I see this differently in that you're specifically calling my viewpoint extreme as opposed to me agreeing with a post by another participant, something that didn't point any fingers at any specific individuals on this board.  I believe there is an important difference.