Could the Book of Mormon be a 17th Century pious fraud?

[JarMan]

5 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

Then you probably are also aware that the KJB had an edited version published in 1769 which modernized the spelling. There were some other changes also, I don't know how many. More than likely Joseph and his family would have been reading the 1769 Oxford edition. I am wondering what the differences are between the Tyndale editions, the 1611 KJB, and the 1769 KJB.

Glenn

I've done a little work comparing Book of Mormon passages to Tyndale's Bible and the KJB. I did just enough investigation to satisfy myself that the bible passages in the Book of Mormon had to have come from the KJB. Others have posted similar findings. I can't tell you, though, whether the passages in the Book of Mormon are more reflective of the 1611 version or a later King James version, but my sense is that the changes in later versions were so minor that there is essentially no discernible difference that can be correlated with the Book of Mormon.

[Rajah Manchou]

On 10/11/2017 at 1:37 AM, JarMan said:

In Mosiah 17 Abinadi is burned to death for what essentially amounts to heresy. Later, in Alma 14 many heretics are burned to death by the people of Ammonihah. The practice of burning heretics at the stake was a common 16th century practice in Europe but had mostly died out by the beginning of the 17th century - over 200 years before JS dictated the Book of Mormon. Burning heretics at the stake seems to have originated in Europe almost 1,000 years after 600 BC so it's doubtful this practice was something the Lehites or Mulekites brought with them from the old world. But it's not just the practice itsself in the Book of Mormon that hints at 16th Century Europe. There are also several similarities to how it was practiced.

Zombie thread, but was reading something completely unrelated about a 1st century heretic being burned at the stake in Kashmir (India). I was reminded of this thread. Got to looking for other examples and there are quite a few on the entertaining "Death by Burning" wiki. For example:

Under 6th-century emperor Justinian I, the death penalty had been decreed for impenitent Manicheans, but a specific punishment was not made explicit. By the 7th century, however, those found guilty of "dualist heresy" could risk being burned at the stake.^[42]

Edited February 11, 2018 by Rajah Manchou

[mfbukowski]

On 10/18/2017 at 12:25 PM, JarMan said:

There are two hypotheses (that I can think of) that seem to fit the data as I understand it.

1) The original translation occurred in the 16th Century but it was reworked a number of times over the intervening years.

2) Joseph transmitted an original translation. The translator was intimately familiar with Early Modern English as well as changes to English that happened after the 16th Century. The translator in this hypothesis could be God, an angel, or a human. Why God would do it this way, I don't know. Perhaps he wanted the Book of Mormon to sound biblical. . . only he did too good a job at it. Or imagine a resurrected Tyndale in consultation with a resurrected Moroni, learning Reformed Egyptian and then translating the text which is transmitted to Joseph. Or imagine a man sometime in the 18th or early 19th Century that natively speaks something other than English. He's a religious and biblical scholar and learns English in order to research the events of the Reformation. Since the English texts he reads are mostly from the 16th Century, he naturally writes like a 16th Century writer. However, he has some exposure to later English and his writings are colored by later forms of English, either consciously or unconsciously. This hypothetical translator is barely able to understand the Reformed Egyptian on the plates so he ends up expanding significantly based on his knowledge of the King James Bible and his readings regarding the Reformation.

I prefer hypothesis 2a, but I'm open to the others. Are there any other hypotheses that seem to fit the data we now have?

It's magic?

[USU78]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

It's magic?

Buy Occam Shave(tm)!

[JarMan]

14 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Zombie thread, but was reading something completely unrelated about a 1st century heretic being burned at the stake in Kashmir (India). I was reminded of this thread. Got to looking for other examples and there are quite a few on the entertaining "Death by Burning" wiki. For example:

Under 6th-century emperor Justinian I, the death penalty had been decreed for impenitent Manicheans, but a specific punishment was not made explicit. By the 7th century, however, those found guilty of "dualist heresy" could risk being burned at the stake.^[42]

Interesting find. Still I think it supports my assertion that the burning of heretics would likely not have been known by the Lehites. And it in no way lessens the idea that it was well known in 17th Century Europe.

[JarMan]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

It's magic?

My hypothesis has changed significantly in the four months since I posted this. I am now hypothesizing that the Book of Mormon was produced by a European (likely Dutch) prophet in toto during the 17th Century. I have postulated a date of between 1620 and 1660 but I think it's likely to have occurred between about 1625 and 1645. The original text would have been in Latin with an English translation following shortly. It's the English translation that was transmitted to Joseph.

[Bobbieaware]

15 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Zombie thread, but was reading something completely unrelated about a 1st century heretic being burned at the stake in Kashmir (India). I was reminded of this thread. Got to looking for other examples and there are quite a few on the entertaining "Death by Burning" wiki. For example:

Under 6th-century emperor Justinian I, the death penalty had been decreed for impenitent Manicheans, but a specific punishment was not made explicit. By the 7th century, however, those found guilty of "dualist heresy" could risk being burned at the stake.^[42]

Execution by fire is prescribed in the Mosaic Law.

 

"If a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you." -- Leviticus 20:14

 

"And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire." -- Leviticus 21:9

 

"Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt." -- Genesis 38:24

 

"He that is taken with the accursed thing shall be burnt with fire, he and all that he hath. ... And Joshua ... took Achan ... and his sons, and his daughters ... And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire." -- Joshua 7:15, 24-25

[USU78]

53 minutes ago, JarMan said:

Interesting find. Still I think it supports my assertion that the burning of heretics would likely not have been known by the Lehites. And it in no way lessens the idea that it was well known in 17th Century Europe.

Nobody reads Daniel any more, I guess

[JarMan]

36 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

Execution by fire is prescribed in the Mosaic Law.

 

"If a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you." -- Leviticus 20:14

 

"And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire." -- Leviticus 21:9

 

"Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt." -- Genesis 38:24

 

"He that is taken with the accursed thing shall be burnt with fire, he and all that he hath. ... And Joshua ... took Achan ... and his sons, and his daughters ... And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire." -- Joshua 7:15, 24-25

The Book of Mormon has burning at the stake for heresy. That's not found in the Old Testament but is almost exclusively found in medieval Eurasia.

[JarMan]

31 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Nobody reads Daniel any more, I guess

Burning at the stake is not the same as being cast into a furnace. Nor is disobedience to the king or the failure to worship his gods the same thing as heresy.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, USU78 said:

Nobody reads Daniel any more, I guess

Them Poor Manicheans 

Sure hand trouble 

Preaching in Latin in Zarahemla

And burning like stubble

Occam Shave

 

Edited February 12, 2018 by mfbukowski

[USU78]

12 minutes ago, JarMan said:

Burning at the stake is not the same as being cast into a furnace. Nor is disobedience to the king or the failure to worship his gods the same thing as heresy.

Are you being serious enough to engage? I just got me some serious doubts. This special pleading smells disingenuous

Edited February 12, 2018 by USU78

[JarMan]

5 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Are you being serious enough to engage? I just got me some serious doubts. This special pleading smells disingenuous

The Book of Mormon mentions execution by furnace in 3Nephi 28:21, 4Nephi 1:32, and Mormon 8:24. None of these references seems to be dealing with execution of heretics. Now compare Abinadi's execution and the execution of many others in Alma 14. These are burnings at the stake and are done for the punishment of heresy. Now also consider that the Book of Mormon heretic burnings have several other elements that are found in medieval Europe: 1) they burned heretical books with the heretics; 2) they held mass burnings of many people at one large event; 3) they made prominent people witness other people burning in hopes of forcing a recantation; 4) heretics were given two chances to recant before being burned.

Now let's see if Occam's Razor cuts both ways when it comes to the issue of heretic burning in the Book of Mormon. I am arguing that this practice exists in the Book of Mormon because it was influenced by historical events that happened near the time of its production (the 17th Century). Presumably you are arguing that it was developed independently by the Lehites with no prior exposure to the practice. How do you explain that this practice described in the Book of Mormon is identical to the medieval European practice but is found nowhere else in world history, least of all in a culture that would have influenced the Lehites?

[Rajah Manchou]

2 hours ago, JarMan said:

Interesting find. Still I think it supports my assertion that the burning of heretics would likely not have been known by the Lehites. And it in no way lessens the idea that it was well known in 17th Century Europe.

But burning of heretics at the stake is not a "medieval European practice...found nowhere else in world history"

[JarMan]

17 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

But burning of heretics at the stake is not a "medieval European practice...found nowhere else in world history"

There were some preludes to it in Europe before medieval times. I acknowledged as much in the opening post of this thread where I stated that it began about 1,000 years after 600 BC. As far as I can tell, though, this was done on a limited basis and really became widespread between about 1100 and 1600 AD. And I can't find any record of burning books with the heretics or any of the other heretic-burning practices I mentioned until medieval times. The point is that this has been a limited practice in world history, not a ubiquitous practice. It was undoubtedly known and widely condemned in 17th Century Europe. On the other hand there is no evidence it was ever known to any cultures thought to be associated with the Book of Mormon.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, JarMan said:

Burning at the stake is not the same as being cast into a furnace. Nor is disobedience to the king or the failure to worship his gods the same thing as heresy.

Please explain if you were going to burn someone as punishment, what would be the most likely way to make it last a bit enough to be torture (so no knocking them out or having them lie down on the wood as clothing and hair ignite quickly and lead to a short death scene), but make it so they can't just run out of the flames because the rest of you have to stand a way back because of the heat.

[JarMan]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Please explain if you were going to burn someone as punishment, what would be the most likely way to make it last a bit enough to be torture (so no knocking them out or having them lie down on the wood as clothing and hair ignite quickly and lead to a short death scene), but make it so they can't just run out of the flames because the rest of you have to stand a way back because of the heat.

I don't understand the question. Are you saying there is or is not a distinct difference between burning someone at the stake and casting them into a fiery furnace?

[Calm]

Just now, JarMan said:

I don't understand the question. Are you saying there is or is not a distinct difference between burning someone at the stake and casting them into a fiery furnace?

It is a lot easier to come up with a stake and some rope than a furnace.  I suspect in the majority of executions by burning, they did not have a giant furnace handy.

[Rajah Manchou]

4 minutes ago, JarMan said:

I don't understand the question. Are you saying there is or is not a distinct difference between burning someone at the stake and casting them into a fiery furnace?

Was Abinadi 'burned at the stake'? Rereading Mosiah 17 and all it says is that he was bound and scourged with faggots and suffered death by fire.

It could be that the idea of Abinadi being burned at a stake comes from seeing movies about medieval heretics being tied to poles on top of piles of wood. All the church artwork I've seen depicts him being tied to a stake. But its not clear that is what happened in the Book of Mormon. If anything, it sounds like he was whipped to death with burning sticks. There is no mention of books or stakes.
 

[Rajah Manchou]

There's also this account of Polycarp the martyr from a much earlier period that sounds quite similar to what we read in Mosiah, with no stake needed Somewhat different from what we imagine happening to medieval witches and heretics.

"A messenger was sent to the middle of this great amphitheater to declare three times the saying: "Polycarp has confessed to be a Christian." Upon hearing the confession, the multitude began to demand his death by crying out in fury to let the lions loose. But the magistrate said: "Let him be burned." The people immediately began to gather up wood and anything else that would burn and piled it up at the feet of Polycarp. As the guards were about to nail him to the stake, he said: "Leave me as I am. He who gives me strength to bear the fire will hold me to the pile." Therefore, they did not fasten him with nails but simply used a rope to tie his hands behind his back. As he was about to be offered as a burnt offering to his Lord and Saviour, Polycarp looked up to heaven and began to pray:

"O Father...I thank thee that thou didst call me to this day and hour, and hast counted me worthy that I may have my part and place among the number of the holy martyrs. I pray thee, O Lord, that thou wouldst this day receive me, as a fat offering among the number of thy holy martyrs. I thank and praise thee, above other men and honor thy holy name, through Jesus Christ, thy well-beloved Son, the eternal High Priest, unto whom, with thee and the Holy Ghost, be the glory, now and forever. Amen."

As soon as he said "amen," the officers lit the fire. The story is told that the flames arched above the body of Polycarp as if the hand of God had built a wall around him. The blood-thirsty mob, believing that his body was not burning fast enough, cried out for a soldier nearby to pierce his body with a sword. When he did so, such a quantity of blood gushed out that the fire was put out or nearly so. To the dismay of the crowd, they still demanded that his dead body be burned to where all that was left was his bones.

[JarMan]

7 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Was Abinadi 'burned at the stake'? Rereading Mosiah 17 and all it says is that he was bound and scourged with faggots and suffered death by fire.

It could be that the idea of Abinadi being burned at a stake comes from seeing movies about medieval heretics being tied to poles on top of piles of wood. All the church artwork I've seen depicts him being tied to a stake. But its not clear that is what happened in the Book of Mormon. If anything, it sounds like he was whipped to death with burning sticks. There is no mention of books or stakes.
 

Skousen has indicated that the word "scourged" is actually "scorched." He also indicated that the use of the word "scorched" in this context is consistent with burning at the stake. And although there is no mention of the word "stake" there is mention of the word "faggots" meaning the bundle of sticks that were lit beneath the person. I think the stake here is implied as a means of holding him amongst the burning faggots. The lack  of books being burned here is not a problem. This was only an occasional practice in medieval Europe so we wouldn't expect to see it every time in the Book of Mormon. Alma 14 does mention books being burned.

[JarMan]

9 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

There's also this account of Polycarp the martyr from a much earlier period that sounds quite similar to what we read in Mosiah, with no stake needed Somewhat different from what we imagine happening to medieval witches and heretics.

"A messenger was sent to the middle of this great amphitheater to declare three times the saying: "Polycarp has confessed to be a Christian." Upon hearing the confession, the multitude began to demand his death by crying out in fury to let the lions loose. But the magistrate said: "Let him be burned." The people immediately began to gather up wood and anything else that would burn and piled it up at the feet of Polycarp. As the guards were about to nail him to the stake, he said: "Leave me as I am. He who gives me strength to bear the fire will hold me to the pile." Therefore, they did not fasten him with nails but simply used a rope to tie his hands behind his back. As he was about to be offered as a burnt offering to his Lord and Saviour, Polycarp looked up to heaven and began to pray:

"O Father...I thank thee that thou didst call me to this day and hour, and hast counted me worthy that I may have my part and place among the number of the holy martyrs. I pray thee, O Lord, that thou wouldst this day receive me, as a fat offering among the number of thy holy martyrs. I thank and praise thee, above other men and honor thy holy name, through Jesus Christ, thy well-beloved Son, the eternal High Priest, unto whom, with thee and the Holy Ghost, be the glory, now and forever. Amen."

As soon as he said "amen," the officers lit the fire. The story is told that the flames arched above the body of Polycarp as if the hand of God had built a wall around him. The blood-thirsty mob, believing that his body was not burning fast enough, cried out for a soldier nearby to pierce his body with a sword. When he did so, such a quantity of blood gushed out that the fire was put out or nearly so. To the dismay of the crowd, they still demanded that his dead body be burned to where all that was left was his bones.

I just came across this paper. I am still digesting it but I will probably have to revise my thinking regarding the historical practice. However, even in spite of this, I think the specific details regarding burning of heretics in the Book of Mormon is best explained by a knowledge of the medieval practice.

[JarMan]

40 minutes ago, Calm said:

It is a lot easier to come up with a stake and some rope than a furnace.  I suspect in the majority of executions by burning, they did not have a giant furnace handy.

I understand the word furnace to mean kiln. Civilizations that create pottery, bricks, lime, and many other things would have kilns in operation.

[Rajah Manchou]

15 minutes ago, JarMan said:

Skousen has indicated that the word "scourged" is actually "scorched." He also indicated that the use of the word "scorched" in this context is consistent with burning at the stake. And although there is no mention of the word "stake" there is mention of the word "faggots" meaning the bundle of sticks that were lit beneath the person. I think the stake here is implied as a means of holding him amongst the burning faggots. The lack  of books being burned here is not a problem. This was only an occasional practice in medieval Europe so we wouldn't expect to see it every time in the Book of Mormon. Alma 14 does mention books being burned.

But words can be defined in a number of different ways. Book of Mormon Central uses same words as evidence that the account matches practices found in Mesoamerica. So the account of the burning of Abinadi doesn't help us much in pinpointing a time and place.
 

 

Edited February 12, 2018 by Rajah Manchou

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, JarMan said:

I understand the word furnace to mean kiln. Civilizations that create pottery, bricks, lime, and many other things would have kilns in operation.

A stake is still much easier, more cost effective and allows for video as well as audio of suffering.

Edited February 12, 2018 by Calm