Rajah Manchou Posted March 4, 2018 Posted March 4, 2018 1 hour ago, JarMan said: There is a 17th Century prophet in this story It could help to clarify terms. The priesthood hadn't been restored in the 17th century, so the term prophet is problematic. Are you proposing some sort of seer that translated a record of Lehites, or are you proposing an author who wrote a book in the 17th century, no supermundane process necessary. Did the Jaredites, Mulekites and Lehites really exist and their record was later carried to the Netherlands to be translated by an unrecognized prophet, or was the whole book written by Grotius? You haven't told us whether your hypothesis allows for a historical Cumorah event or not.
JarMan Posted March 4, 2018 Author Posted March 4, 2018 49 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said: It could help to clarify terms. The priesthood hadn't been restored in the 17th century, so the term prophet is problematic. Are you proposing some sort of seer that translated a record of Lehites, or are you proposing an author who wrote a book in the 17th century, no supermundane process necessary. Did the Jaredites, Mulekites and Lehites really exist and their record was later carried to the Netherlands to be translated by an unrecognized prophet, or was the whole book written by Grotius? You haven't told us whether your hypothesis allows for a historical Cumorah event or not. By “prophet” I mean someone called by God to give us sage advice and spiritual wisdom. My hypothesis is that the Book of Mormon was originally produced in toto during the 17th Century. As I started discovering 17th Century connections, I at first thought of them as “expansions” added to the translation of an actual, ancient text from America. (That’s what I “wanted” it to be.) The more I’ve looked at it, though, I’ve realized there is essentially nothing in the entire Book of Mormon that can’t be explained by a 17th Century European connection. The only exception I’ve found to this is the specific prophecies about Joseph and his contemporaries. So I’ve concluded it is entirely an early modern production except for perhaps the exceptions I mentioned which could be 19th Century expansion or legitimate 17th Century prophecy. My guess is that the events in the Book of Mormon bear some level of resemblance to actual events in America but my hypothesis doesn’t require it. Since it’s driven by what is written in the Book of Mormon versus what was written before about the middle of the 17th Century it's pretty much silent about anything during Joseph’s time. So did an angel appear to Joseph? What was buried in the hill? What was written on the gold plates? Were there really any gold plates in existence? I can tell you what I want the answer to those questions to be. But ultimately this exercise isn’t about that, and it can’t provide those answers anyway. 1
EdGoble Posted March 4, 2018 Posted March 4, 2018 19 hours ago, JarMan said: Look, I wish the official version for the coming forth of the Book of Mormon was the real version. I really do. But the evidence just doesn't support it. I also wish everything Joseph ever said concerning the supernatural was true. But the evidence doesn't support that either. And whether you think something is faith promoting or not has no bearing on the truth of the matter. Nor does your preference for how history ought to have unfolded have any effect on what actually happened. There is a 17th Century prophet in this story, but not because I want him to be there. And not because I "assume" him to be there. He is there because practically everything in the Book of Mormon points to him being there. If you want to challenge my assertion that the evidence clearly points to a 17th Century origin, then fine. But if you simply want to wish things happened the way you want them to have happened you're not going to get much traction. I've been down that road and it's a dead end. Well, respectfully, I don't think that this evidence requires the interpretation that you, but it is only one of a number of possibilities, and I think that more plausible options exist that are harmonious with the standard narrative.
JarMan Posted March 5, 2018 Author Posted March 5, 2018 4 hours ago, EdGoble said: Well, respectfully, I don't think that this evidence requires the interpretation that you, but it is only one of a number of possibilities, and I think that more plausible options exist that are harmonious with the standard narrative. I’m not sure what evidence you are aware of and I know it seems like a long, crazy, and unnecessary leap to make. But there’s a lot more to this than you probably realize. I’ve talked through several of the issues on this forum and there are several more I just haven’t had time to discuss yet. At some point I’ll probably put everything down in print so people can evaluate the whole picture. Vetting things on this forum has been a good exercise for me, though, and as time permits I’ll continue to bring up various issues. In the meantime I appreciate all substantive feedback, critical or supportive.
EdGoble Posted March 5, 2018 Posted March 5, 2018 12 hours ago, JarMan said: I’m not sure what evidence you are aware of and I know it seems like a long, crazy, and unnecessary leap to make. But there’s a lot more to this than you probably realize. I’ve talked through several of the issues on this forum and there are several more I just haven’t had time to discuss yet. At some point I’ll probably put everything down in print so people can evaluate the whole picture. Vetting things on this forum has been a good exercise for me, though, and as time permits I’ll continue to bring up various issues. In the meantime I appreciate all substantive feedback, critical or supportive. Well, then I look forward to seeing the results of that exercise with curiosity. I just can't say that I believe it.
Lagrange Posted January 13, 2019 Posted January 13, 2019 On 2/16/2018 at 8:08 PM, Rajah Manchou said: More than half of the world's population is now included in the intended audience of the Book of Mormon. Would it not make sense that God intended it all along? I'd guess if this perspective were adopted, the Church would be nearing 1 billion within 100 years. I like to think that I'm looking at this picture through the eyes of Joseph Smith Jr. himself, who when seeking the office of POTUS promoted a concept of what might be called 'Manifest Destiny' that was far more inclusive than the genocidal/satanic version that would prevail. There still may be time to get back with Joseph's program, and I think Rajah Manchou has done much to point the way. http://canadianpatriot.org/4492-2/
Navidad Posted January 16, 2019 Posted January 16, 2019 I am way late posting here, but I am taken by Jarman's references to Foxe's Book of Martyrs. I haven't read every post in this thread, so forgive me if this has already been pointed out . . . The Whitmer family as long-time Anabaptists (Brethren and Mennonite) would, without a doubt have had a copy of Foxe's Book of Martyrs in their home in New York - most likely one that was fully illustrated. It is common consent in the history of Anabaptism that next to the Bible, Foxe's Book was a requirement for every Mennonite home. Others have written about the Anabaptist influences on early Mormonism, perhaps Jarman's observations are just one more link.
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