"Inspired Fiction" v. The Plates & The Witnesses

[clarkgoble]

8 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Why do apologists think the plates were made of this?  Is the Stowell account part of the reason, or is it the lighter weight of this alloy, or is there some evidence that this metal was used by ancient Americans?  

I'm not a metallurgist so I've no expertise here. The original theory was from 1966 in the Improvement Era. The main argument is weight. The most recent analysis that goes into detail on the sources and possibilities is Jerry Grover's "Ziff, Magic Googles, and Golden Plates"

[clarkgoble]

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Thanks for the pages reference, I just read that section again.  I don't know where Vogel's argument is specifically articulated to compare and contrast, is it in his biography on JS or somewhere else?  

As for the eight witnesses there are problems with taking their experience as a tangible/physical experience.  Also, can you explain how you would read the Jesse Smith statement?  

I like Taves construction because it removes fraud from the discussion and bridges a conversation between believers and non believers.  It's not perfect, but has been praised by many Mormons and I appreciate her work and the respectful approach she takes.  

Vogel's latest response that engages with Anderson's most recent responses is this one.  His main work was his chapter in American Apocrypha, “The Validity of the Witnesses' Testimonies” which isn't available online. I should add I'm not sure I buy his reconstruction of what "spiritual eyes" means in the folk magic tradition. But that's a more complicated discussion. Even Vogel admits that at best the evidence can be read in multiple ways though. I'm not sure his three possibilities are equally plausible though.

I understand why people want Taves theory to work. It's socially convenient since it removes the conscious fraud element. I'm not sure it works since if it was this dual nature item, it'd help to have Joseph expressely embracing it. That he didn't and actually argued the opposite undermines it as a real option to fraud. After all if it really was like how Catholics conceive of the substance of the bread and water in the Eucharist why not convey that? With the Book of Abraham the sincere model works better (although I don't accept it myself). I just don't think it works for the Book of Mormon. After all at least the papyri Joseph had was really Egyptian - the wrong century to be what they thought it was but still a it's easy to see how he could believe that. If the Book of Mormon was actually a green rock, then that's just harder to believe.   

Edited September 29, 2017 by clarkgoble

[Glenn101]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

For Marin's claim about the eight witnesses seeing with spiritual eyes that was in Kirtland around 1838 I believe and there are two accounts of it as well as an apology from Martin for the impact of his statement and an attempted clarification.  All those elements add to the strength of the evidence.  

With Martin you need to look at his life after his break from Joseph and the many different claims he made and religious communities he identified with.  I recommend this essay.  

https://user.xmission.com/~research/mormonpdf/4martinharris.pdf

For David, I read that quote you gave as evidence he admits his experience was spiritual, but that he is asserting to its reality to him.  With David Whitmer the thing is, many LDS members want to selectively use his claims to bolster the LDS narrative, but if we are to believe him we need to consider the many claims he makes that poke serious holes in the LDS construction of Mormon history.  

You may interpret Whitmer's remarks in any way that you choose, but he was replying to a question from a skeptic, Anthony Metcalf, asking whether Whitmer had actually seen the plates with his real eyes.

I have known about Martin's spiritual odysseys for years. But he found his way back so there is hope for you also. 

Glenn

[Benjamin Seeker]

As long as we're discussing the possibility of well or ill-intentioned fraud, it's worth mentioning that JS has been proven a well-intentioned fraud already in several other areas. Here are three fairly uncontroversial examples:

1. He publicly denied practicing polygamy.

2. He minimized (to the point of lying) his involvement in treasure digging in his official history

3. He wrote the seer stone out of the translation process entirely in his official history. 

There are more examples which are more controversial (so please don't respond in detail to these as I'm acknowledging their problematic nature), including evolving accounts of the discovery of the plates, the restoration of the priesthood (with additions to a revelation and a published blessing), and the first vision.

If JS was comfortable with the deception of the top three cases, whose to say he wasn't comfortable with a pious fraud involving the plates as well.

[Rajah Manchou]

4 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Why do apologists think the plates were made of this?  Is the Stowell account part of the reason, or is it the lighter weight of this alloy, or is there some evidence that this metal was used by ancient Americans?  

The practice of gold granulation for tumbaga most likely originate in nusantara. Tumbaga is a Malay word meaning copper or brass.

William Solheim has suggested that there was a seafaring network that connected nusantara to the Americas as early as 3000 BC. Tumbaga was one of the technologies transmitted through this network along with chickens, sweet potatoes, bark paper, blowguns and religious ideas that extend throughout the Pacific region. This is the Lamanite trading network, that had its center at a place called Lamai, or Lamanite.

[Bernard Gui]

On 9/24/2017 at 1:36 AM, Rajah Manchou said:

If you believe Strang was a con artist, then he has already demonstrated that it is possible. He even left the plates he found in the Hill of Promise out for examination, and convinced many.

Whatever argument that might be used to discredit Strang could be used to discredit Smith. Whatever argument that might be used to validate Smith could be used to validate Strang. The stories are too much alike to say one is true and the other false.

 

 

Weren't the Strang plates brass? Or a witness said they were?

[Rajah Manchou]

36 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Weren't the Strang plates brass? Or a witness said they were?

After removing the tree, Strang's companions dug down approximately three feet, where they discovered three small brass plates in a case of baked clay. Strang subsequently claimed to have deciphered this record, which he said was authored by an ancient Native American named "Rajah Manchou of Vorito."

[Physics Guy]

11 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I have a hard time going to a strict fraud explanation, and even critical researchers like a Vogel for example give Joseph the benefit of the doubt as a pious fraud.  I just don't think very many people exist in this world that we can caricature in this way.  People are complex, and the more we research the human mind the more we understand that even within the brain we have competing interests (look into split brain studies). 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-brain

Joseph was sincerely moved and cried after he baptized his dad.   Was he so glad that he has just tricked his Dad into believing in his fraudulent endeavor that he cried out of some kind of joy that he had deceived his dad?  Joseph was a complicated person, experienced childhood trauma (leg operations, deaths of siblings, poverty, religious strife in the family).  Joseph was a human being, with multiple personality facets.  Fraud is used in financial legal discussions.  Are there elements of some of Joseph's activities that could be considered fraudulent, yes, absolutely, but I hesitate labeling the person a "fraud" when it comes to all of his religious endeavors.  

I guess I'm just not so generous. If someone is totally sincere and yet produces fake props and documents, I consider that a pretty rare level of delusion, such that I'd expect them to have a hard time functioning in life. What I find much more likely is a deliberate fraud who enjoys the game they are playing and gets into the role, to the point where they really experience its emotions.

When the pretense is so much better than the reality, who wants to dwell on the reality? Keep the reality in the back of your mind, in case you need it, but let the fantasy run through most of your thoughts. People manage to live in fantasy worlds even when their fantasies receive no support from the people around them. How much easier it must be to make believe when other people are really believing.

I also think that this kind of earnest role-playing must be especially tempting and easy when the role is that of a revelator, whose words are taken to declare novel truths. It's a conveniently short step from being the unique transmission channel for truth, to being the creator of truth, whose wishes count as if they were real.

So I don't rule out genuine feeling on Joseph Smith's part. I just don't think it's anything so special or different for a fraud to be pious—in his own fraud.

[Physics Guy]

11 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

Look at what happens with people with a big variance towards the mainstream religious expectations of a location. Mormons were hardly the only religion to face mobs nor to have religious figures lied about. In contrast to the usual LDS narrative of unique persecution, I'd argue that Catholics faced far worse treatment than Mormons. A convent near Bunker Hill was burnt to the ground in 1834 by a mob who believed reports of abuse in the school. In Philadelphia the Bible Riots of 1844 burned houses and churches with at least 20 people killed again wrapped up with conspiracy theories. Treatment and conspiracy of Jews during this era is of course rather well known as well. There were expulsion orders of Jews from Tennessee again tied to conspiracy theories. Physical assaults were commonplace as were false charges. Much like Mormons faced in Missouri there were attempts by state governments to prevent Jewish voting. With these persecutions you find the clever use of mobs and the courts to legitimize the persecution, much as with Mormons.

If Joseph's history parallels expectations of fraud it also parallels expectations of persecution with associated lies. Trumped up charges were a rather common fixture of 19th century life. Especially with unpopular political or religious movements. 

I think that's all true, but I'm not sure I see this as fitting the angel theory particularly well. Practically anybody who was different was liable to be persecuted. So I don't see what the angel theory predicts, about persecution, that is any different from any other theory which accepts the basic fact that early Mormons stood out as a distinctive religious community.

I guess the other question I have about persecution of early Mormons is, how much of it was specifically due to polygamy? When a community with a normal gender ratio institutes polygamy, it generates a pool of frustrated young men whose potential mates have been preempted as extra mates by other men, and a pool of frustrated young men has never been good news for the neighbors. Violent persecution is obviously not the right way to deal with this problem, but being alarmed about nearby polygamists is not just bigotry. At least some of the persecution of early Mormons may be a sign, not of the genuine revelation for which prophets are supposed to be persecuted, but just of polygamy in itself, right or wrong.

Or do you mean, when you point to the pattern of persecution, that the things that Smith did which ring fraud bells for me could have been the measures that an honest prophet would naturally take in anticipation of persecution? That's a line of argument I hadn't considered. I don't immediately see how it would help ward off persecution to show the plates while keeping them covered, or to get eight witnesses to sign one terse statement instead of penning independent accounts. If this is your line of thinking, could you explain it a bit?

 

 

[Glenn101]

1 hour ago, Physics Guy said:

I think that's all true, but I'm not sure I see this as fitting the angel theory particularly well. Practically anybody who was different was liable to be persecuted. So I don't see what the angel theory predicts, about persecution, that is any different from any other theory which accepts the basic fact that early Mormons stood out as a distinctive religious community.

I guess the other question I have about persecution of early Mormons is, how much of it was specifically due to polygamy? When a community with a normal gender ratio institutes polygamy, it generates a pool of frustrated young men whose potential mates have been preempted as extra mates by other men, and a pool of frustrated young men has never been good news for the neighbors. Violent persecution is obviously not the right way to deal with this problem, but being alarmed about nearby polygamists is not just bigotry. At least some of the persecution of early Mormons may be a sign, not of the genuine revelation for which prophets are supposed to be persecuted, but just of polygamy in itself, right or wrong.

Or do you mean, when you point to the pattern of persecution, that the things that Smith did which ring fraud bells for me could have been the measures that an honest prophet would naturally take in anticipation of persecution? That's a line of argument I hadn't considered. I don't immediately see how it would help ward off persecution to show the plates while keeping them covered, or to get eight witnesses to sign one terse statement instead of penning independent accounts. If this is your line of thinking, could you explain it a bit?

Religious intolerance has been part and parcel of the American experience. Many religious groups came to the American colonies so they could practice their religion as they saw fit, but then many of them were loath to accord that same privilege to others, which is rather ironic. That the Mormons from the very beginning were claiming to have had angelic visits, revelations, and even visits from God the Father and Jesus were the first jarring ideas were different from the normative. A Catholic group in the area though probably would have been persecuted also. The production of the Book of Mormon seems to have been both a magnet for conversion and a flashpoint for opposition.

I have done a bit of research on the role polygamy actually played in the opposition to the Church. It was not a factor in the problems that drove them out of New York. Internal dissension was the major factor in the Ohio. I have been able to find no references to polygamy as a source of any problems in Missouri. In Nauvoo the main source of the suspicion and fear that was engendered in the minds of most was the growing political power of the Mormon community in Nauvoo. In 1837 the population of Commerce Illinois was about fifteen families. By 1844 it rivaled Chicago in size. The Warsaw Signal was a newspaper started by Thomas C. Sharp in 1840 basically in political opposition to the growing Mormon political menace. He actually started an anti-Mormon Party. I have perused a large selection of his papers from 1841 through 1845 and there was barely a mention of polygamy. The letters from John C. Bennett accusing Joseph Smith of spiritual wifery got some play but the overarching theme in all of those years were political. At least four of the members of the mob that killed Joseph and Hyrum were members of the Anti-Mormon Party, including Thomas C. Sharp and Levi Williams. Other non-LDS publications, such as the Centennial History of Illinois make no mention of polygamy in their coverage of the events that went on in Hancock County and the expulsion of the Mormons from Illinois. In his December 1844 report to the Illinois Legislature on the events in Hancock County concerning the assassinations in Carthage, Governor Ford made no mention of polygamy as being any concern of the "old citizens" of the county in their opposition to the Mormons. Polygamy as the driving force behind the expulsion of the Mormons from Illinois has become a popular meme but it is not supported by the non-LDS records, except the Nauvoo Expositor, of course, and that was more about seducing young girls, etc. and spiritual wifery as it was polygamy.

The "terse statement" was the official statement, but it was backed up by public and private statements by those involved throughout the lives of those witnesses. Edited to add: The Book of Mormon itself is the best evidence against any type of fraud theory.

Glenn

 

Edited September 29, 2017 by Glenn101

[Physics Guy]

1 hour ago, Glenn101 said:

 

I have done a bit of research on the role polygamy actually played in the opposition to the Church. It was not a factor in the problems that drove them out of New York. Internal dissension was the major factor in the Ohio. I have been able to find no references to polygamy as a source of any problems in Missouri. In Nauvoo the main source of the suspicion and fear that was engendered in the minds of most was the growing political power of the Mormon community in Nauvoo. In 1837 the population of Commerce Illinois was about fifteen families. By 1844 it rivaled Chicago in size. The Warsaw Signal was a newspaper started by Thomas C. Sharp in 1840 basically in political opposition to the growing Mormon political menace. He actually started an anti-Mormon Party. I have perused a large selection of his papers from 1841 through 1845 and there was barely a mention of polygamy. The letters from John C. Bennett accusing Joseph Smith of spiritual wifery got some play but the overarching theme in all of those years were political. At least four of the members of the mob that killed Joseph and Hyrum were members of the Anti-Mormon Party, including Thomas C. Sharp and Levi Williams. Other non-LDS publications, such as the Centennial History of Illinois make no mention of polygamy in their coverage of the events that went on in Hancock County and the expulsion of the Mormons from Illinois. In his December 1844 report to the Illinois Legislature on the events in Hancock County concerning the assassinations in Carthage, Governor Ford made no mention of polygamy as being any concern of the "old citizens" of the county in their opposition to the Mormons. Polygamy as the driving force behind the expulsion of the Mormons from Illinois has become a popular meme but it is not supported by the non-LDS records, except the Nauvoo Expositor, of course, and that was more about seducing young girls, etc. and spiritual wifery as it was polygamy.

Okay, that sounds clear. Thanks for doing the research.

Quote

The "terse statement" was the official statement, but it was backed up by public and private statements by those involved throughout the lives of those witnesses.

What rings the fraud bell for me is the fact that what Smith orchestrated was a jointly signed terse statement, instead of just allowing a little wave of independent attestations—and above all descriptions—of the plates. That still bothers me, even if the witnesses did later say things on their own. What did they say later, though? I don't pretend to have done exhaustive research, but I've discussed the plate witnesses with seemingly well-informed Mormons before, and it was all about the official statements, except for an inconclusive comparison between contradictory later statements by this one guy who kind of recanted, but then kind of un-recanted.

Quote

The Book of Mormon itself is the best evidence against any type of fraud theory.

This has to be a personal judgement call. My own call is that the Book of Mormon seems very much like something someone like Joseph Smith could have made up, and very unlike anything real ancient Jewish migrants would write. In particular its depiction of Jesus seems very unlike the Jesus I think was real, except for the verbatim quotes from the New Testament.

I won't try to argue the point, though. It's a subjective call based on premises that are probably mostly implicit, so it would take a long time for us even to figure out how each other were thinking. I might be willing to come back to this point if the Skousen-Carmack Early Modern English theory were to become accepted by mainstream linguists as an unambiguous fact about the Book of Mormon text. Otherwise I think we'll just have to disagree.

[hope_for_things]

12 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

I'm not a metallurgist so I've no expertise here. The original theory was from 1966 in the Improvement Era. The main argument is weight. The most recent analysis that goes into detail on the sources and possibilities is Jerry Grover's "Ziff, Magic Googles, and Golden Plates"

Thanks for those links, I wasn't aware of the history of this hypothesis.  

[hope_for_things]

12 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

Vogel's latest response that engages with Anderson's most recent responses is this one.  His main work was his chapter in American Apocrypha, “The Validity of the Witnesses' Testimonies” which isn't available online. I should add I'm not sure I buy his reconstruction of what "spiritual eyes" means in the folk magic tradition. But that's a more complicated discussion. Even Vogel admits that at best the evidence can be read in multiple ways though. I'm not sure his three possibilities are equally plausible though.

I understand why people want Taves theory to work. It's socially convenient since it removes the conscious fraud element. I'm not sure it works since if it was this dual nature item, it'd help to have Joseph expressely embracing it. That he didn't and actually argued the opposite undermines it as a real option to fraud. After all if it really was like how Catholics conceive of the substance of the bread and water in the Eucharist why not convey that? With the Book of Abraham the sincere model works better (although I don't accept it myself). I just don't think it works for the Book of Mormon. After all at least the papyri Joseph had was really Egyptian - the wrong century to be what they thought it was but still a it's easy to see how he could believe that. If the Book of Mormon was actually a green rock, then that's just harder to believe.   

Thanks for the link, I'll read through it to get a better idea about Vogel's position.  

As for Joseph not expressly embracing the prop of the plates, all the evidence points to Joseph telling everyone that God commanded him that no one else could view the plates, even with threats of death if someone attempted to view them.  The most contemporary writings including D&C 17 says the plates would need to be viewed by faith, and this would be the same power by which Joseph viewed the plates.  I think that wording is interesting in the context of this discussion.  

As for the BoA, I agree with you that there are problems with the catalyst theory.  Overall, I'm not saying I believe Joseph was completely sincere about everything he ever did, there are definitely concerns and evidence that he was deceiving people, at the same time there is evidence of sincerity.  He's a complex person and because discussions about him are so charged with sensitivity as the founder of a faith, I think it works to try and bracket the motivations question and have discussions about the evidence.  

[hope_for_things]

12 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

You may interpret Whitmer's remarks in any way that you choose, but he was replying to a question from a skeptic, Anthony Metcalf, asking whether Whitmer had actually seen the plates with his real eyes.

I have known about Martin's spiritual odysseys for years. But he found his way back so there is hope for you also. 

Glenn

No hope for me finding my way back, because I've never left, I'm just a heretical member now.  

[hope_for_things]

6 hours ago, Physics Guy said:

I guess I'm just not so generous. If someone is totally sincere and yet produces fake props and documents, I consider that a pretty rare level of delusion, such that I'd expect them to have a hard time functioning in life. What I find much more likely is a deliberate fraud who enjoys the game they are playing and gets into the role, to the point where they really experience its emotions.

When the pretense is so much better than the reality, who wants to dwell on the reality? Keep the reality in the back of your mind, in case you need it, but let the fantasy run through most of your thoughts. People manage to live in fantasy worlds even when their fantasies receive no support from the people around them. How much easier it must be to make believe when other people are really believing.

I also think that this kind of earnest role-playing must be especially tempting and easy when the role is that of a revelator, whose words are taken to declare novel truths. It's a conveniently short step from being the unique transmission channel for truth, to being the creator of truth, whose wishes count as if they were real.

So I don't rule out genuine feeling on Joseph Smith's part. I just don't think it's anything so special or different for a fraud to be pious—in his own fraud.

While I believe Joseph was a very complicated individual, it doesn't mean I believe he was always sincere or that he didn't let power go to his head.  I also don't think he was smart enough to be completely conscientious of this elaborate plan of his to deceive.  I think he made a ton of mistakes along the way, look at how many insiders were alienated from Joseph over the years.  On one hand he was persuasive and able to convince people to follow him, but on the other hand he lost so very many of those followers.  

Its possible Joseph was also living in his own created reality to a large extent, but so are each of us to differing degrees.  I'm not defending Joseph or his complexities, so please don't misunderstand me, I have serious problems with much of what he did, and I'm not proposing that we ignore the ethical problems at all.  I just want to be able to have discussions about the history and not automatically assume fraudulent intent.  

[hope_for_things]

9 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

The practice of gold granulation for tumbaga most likely originate in nusantara. Tumbaga is a Malay word meaning copper or brass.

William Solheim has suggested that there was a seafaring network that connected nusantara to the Americas as early as 3000 BC. Tumbaga was one of the technologies transmitted through this network along with chickens, sweet potatoes, bark paper, blowguns and religious ideas that extend throughout the Pacific region. This is the Lamanite trading network, that had its center at a place called Lamai, or Lamanite.

Interesting, and I know you have a Malaysian model for BoM lands, but I'm wondering more about archaeological evidence in the America's that they were using Tumbaga in smelting processes, enough to produce materials that could be constructed into plates in the time period that would match up for the BoM.  Do those kinds of evidences exist to your knowledge?  

[clarkgoble]

7 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

After removing the tree, Strang's companions dug down approximately three feet, where they discovered three small brass plates in a case of baked clay. Strang subsequently claimed to have deciphered this record, which he said was authored by an ancient Native American named "Rajah Manchou of Vorito."

To be fair though Strang was modeling things on what Joseph had already done in order to to attract Joseph's followers. So you can't necessarily treat them the same way given that very different context.

25 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

As for Joseph not expressly embracing the prop of the plates, all the evidence points to Joseph telling everyone that God commanded him that no one else could view the plates, even with threats of death if someone attempted to view them.  The most contemporary writings including D&C 17 says the plates would need to be viewed by faith, and this would be the same power by which Joseph viewed the plates.  I think that wording is interesting in the context of this discussion.  

Except that of course he did use the plates as a prop and had them loosely covered with people coming an going. That's how people like Stowell were able to see or feel the plates. So I think you have to deal with that reality of the plates placement for much of the translation. (Although there are indications and some times he simply didn't have them present even in the house)

The point you raise is the same problem I have with Vogel in that "faith" somehow entails "vision" rather than a consequence of exercising faith leading to permission. 

 

[clarkgoble]

3 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Interesting, and I know you have a Malaysian model for BoM lands, but I'm wondering more about archaeological evidence in the America's that they were using Tumbaga in smelting processes, enough to produce materials that could be constructed into plates in the time period that would match up for the BoM.  Do those kinds of evidences exist to your knowledge?  

They do as that Improvement Era article notes.

 

2 hours ago, Physics Guy said:

What rings the fraud bell for me is the fact that what Smith orchestrated was a jointly signed terse statement, instead of just allowing a little wave of independent attestations—and above all descriptions—of the plates. That still bothers me, even if the witnesses did later say things on their own. What did they say later, though? I don't pretend to have done exhaustive research, but I've discussed the plate witnesses with seemingly well-informed Mormons before, and it was all about the official statements, except for an inconclusive comparison between contradictory later statements by this one guy who kind of recanted, but then kind of un-recanted.

I'm not sure signing a joint statement makes fraud more likely. Further that's pretty common for joint statements. The key point is their agreeing with the statement though. But I agree that the formal statement isn't nearly as interesting as comments people make on their own. The problem is there are plenty of those although we can dispute how much information we get from them. 

 

 

[clarkgoble]

10 hours ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

As long as we're discussing the possibility of well or ill-intentioned fraud, it's worth mentioning that JS has been proven a well-intentioned fraud already in several other areas. Here are three fairly uncontroversial examples:

1. He publicly denied practicing polygamy.

2. He minimized (to the point of lying) his involvement in treasure digging in his official history

3. He wrote the seer stone out of the translation process entirely in his official history. 

I certainly agree with your point on (1). If you're trying to judge Joseph's veracity the fact he lied about polygamy in Nauvoo is important. I think the contexts are quite different of course with there being some compelling reasons why he'd lie about one and not the other. But overall I think especially for those looking at the public evidence only it goes to character and behavior.

Your (2) and (3) I have a much harder time with. It's not clear to me at all he hid his treasure digging. Further it is in the official History of the Church and was part of an interview he did and published in the Elder's Journal which was reprinted in History of the Church by him. For the seer stone I again disagree. I think the repression of the role of the seer stone was largely in 20th century. He doesn't appear to have hid it at all. Indeed he frequently showed his white seer stone. Many think it was the model for his theology of everyone having a stone (D&C 130) The problem with appealing to the official history is that by then people used Urim and Thummim to include his seer stones. From the evidence we have, it appears he talked about them reasonably regularly. 

4 hours ago, Physics Guy said:

I think that's all true, but I'm not sure I see this as fitting the angel theory particularly well. Practically anybody who was different was liable to be persecuted. So I don't see what the angel theory predicts, about persecution, that is any different from any other theory which accepts the basic fact that early Mormons stood out as a distinctive religious community.

It's less the angel theory than persecution for new scripture. That is, we should be very careful of antagonistic witnesses especially in court hearings due to the common use of such avenues to persecute new religions that were sufficiently different. That is the 19th century history of religious persecution is an important context for how to judge witness testimony.

3 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

Polygamy as the driving force behind the expulsion of the Mormons from Illinois has become a popular meme but it is not supported by the non-LDS records, except the Nauvoo Expositor, of course, and that was more about seducing young girls, etc. and spiritual wifery as it was polygamy.

I'm not sure I agree with that although I agree with your earlier points. Now admittedly "plurality of wives" was on par with "plurality of gods" in terms of opposition, I think William Law's concerns about polygamy was about far more than seducing girls or spiritual wifery (depending upon how you distinguish that from polygamy). He emphasizes that Hyrum brought up the doctrines in High Council and tied them to David's marriages. So I think in Nauvoo plural marriage was a major issue and a topic of a lot of discussion. Now this only started in 1844 as public awareness rose. Prior to that time anti-Mormon views weren't focused on polygamy because it just wasn't known about.

 

 

[hope_for_things]

24 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

They do as that Improvement Era article notes.

I saw that, but because this document doesn't use citations well, I don't know which bibliographical references directly talk to this finding, and I didn't see any dates suggesting Tumbaga was used during BoM times, it just says " pre-Hispanic Panama".  Would native American's have used Tumbaga during the BoM time period, 600 BCE to 400 CE, and do we have evidence that it was being used in sophisticated enough ways to have produced something like plates.  

[Benjamin Seeker]

47 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Your (2) and (3) I have a much harder time with. It's not clear to me at all he hid his treasure digging. Further it is in the official History of the Church and was part of an interview he did and published in the Elder's Journal which was reprinted in History of the Church by him.

In the official history Joseph addresses the charge of being a money digger with the following: 

"In the month of October, 1825, I hired with an old gentleman by the name of Josiah Stoal, who lived in Chenango county, State of New York. He had heard something of a silver mine having been opened by the Spaniards in Harmony, Susquehanna county, State of Pennsylvania; and had, previous to my hiring to him, been digging, in order, if possible, to discover the mine. After I went to live with him, he took me, with the rest of his hands, to dig for the silver mine, at which I continued to work for nearly a month, without success in our undertaking, and finally I prevailed with the old gentleman to cease digging after it. Hence arose the very prevalent story of my having been a money-digger."

This minimizes his role in this particular dig, and it hardly scratches the surface of his money digging activities! JS probably wanted to clear up accusations made in the Hurlbut affidavits (Mormonism Unvleiled, 1834), and so he picks one of the digs he got hired for making it seem like he was peripheral (also one of the best documented ones), and says that it is the whole of the matter, which we all know is false.

As far as the seer stone goes, JS wasn't open about it in publications, and he was even sometimes reticent with insiders. Oliver Cowdery noted in 1831 that when invited by his brother Hyrum to explain how he translated the Book of Mormon, Joseph "said that it was not intended to tell the world all the particulars of the coming forth of the book of Mormon, & also said that it was not expedient for him to relate these things." Later in his life he tells the story of the Book of Mormon translation and disingenuously left the seer stone out. The 1842 Wentworth letter contains a brief history of the church prepared by Joseph and meant for eventual publication. In it he wrote (or dictated or something along these lines), "With the records was found a curious instrument, which the ancients called "Urim and Thummim," which consisted of two transparent stones set in the rims of a bow fastened to a breastplate. Through the medium of the Urim and Thummim I translated the record by the gift and power of God." Clearly, no mention of the seer stone is made as also there is no mention that, though Joseph did use the Urim and Thummim with the breastplate at first, eventually the Urim and Thummim stones were used in his hat (probably one at a time) the same as the seer stone.

The pattern continues when he oversaw the creation of what was to be the official account of the history of the church, the six volume history of the church which we get portions of in Joseph Smith History in the Pearl of Great Price. There is no explicit mention of the seer stone, and the process of translation and receiving early revelations is summed up as "through the Urim and Thummim." Early church members of the church did use the term Urim and Thummim to refer specifically to the seer stone, so insiders did understand the process being referred to. However, the outside audience would generally think of the explanation found near the beginning of the history which defines the Urim and Thummim as two stones set in silver bows attached to a breastplate

 

 

[Rajah Manchou]

1 minute ago, hope_for_things said:

Interesting, and I know you have a Malaysian model for BoM lands, but I'm wondering more about archaeological evidence in the America's that they were using Tumbaga in smelting processes, enough to produce materials that could be constructed into plates in the time period that would match up for the BoM.  Do those kinds of evidences exist to your knowledge?  

Others here would know more about American metallurgy. From what I've read, depletion gilding (including tumbaga) began with the Chavin and Moche in Peru as early as the 1st millennium BC. As far as I know, it was not found in a Mesoamerican context until the 10th century AD. If the plates were made of tumbaga, we'd have to explain how the Nephites had the technology in Mesoamerica 1500 years too early.

Tumbaga is likely an austronesian technology, and the word itself is taken from the austronesian word for copper. There is evidence of the Sa-Huynh-Kalanay using and trading gold alloys as far back as 1000 BC or earlier. For this reason, Heine-Geldern and William Solheim proposed that their trading network extended as far as Peru. This would explain the Valdivian pottery puzzle and the presence of haplogroup Q1b1 and C3 in Ecuador. 

If Nephi was gilding tumbaga plates in the 6th century BC, how? It's a convenient claim because it resolves the weight problem. But nobody has explained where an Israelite learned how to make tumbaga plates.

 

[Rajah Manchou]

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

To be fair though Strang was modeling things on what Joseph had already done

That's what I am suggesting.

[hope_for_things]

38 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Except that of course he did use the plates as a prop and had them loosely covered with people coming an going. That's how people like Stowell were able to see or feel the plates. So I think you have to deal with that reality of the plates placement for much of the translation. (Although there are indications and some times he simply didn't have them present even in the house)

Also, many of the recollections were looking back, and I think we have to give preference to the contemporary evidence first.  

39 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

The point you raise is the same problem I have with Vogel in that "faith" somehow entails "vision" rather than a consequence of exercising faith leading to permission. 

Vogel makes a compelling argument just looking at D&C 17, but I think if you combine that evidence with the three witness statement as well as the HIC narrative, it corroborates this interpretation.  For D&C 17 its the use of the word "power" in combination with "faith" that are interesting here.  

Quote

The revelation promised the three witnesses a view of the plates by “faith” and by the “gift” and “power” of God, and instructed them to testify to the world that they had seen the plates “with their eyes … even as my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., has seen them; for it is by my power that he has seen them, and it is because he had faith” (D&C 17:5).

For the three witness statement, it again emphasizes the power element.  

Quote

and we also testify that we have seeen [sic] the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shewn unto us by the power of God, and not of man.

The HIC account when David and Oliver had their experience they heard a voice saying:

Quote

These plates have been revealed by the power of God

When Martin has his experience later in this account it says:

Quote

the same vision was opened to our view; at least it was again to me, and I once more beheld, and heard the same things; whilst at the same moment Martin Harris cried out, apparently in ecstacy of joy, "Tis enough; mine eyes have beheld," and jumping up and down he shouted hosanah, blessing God and otherwise rejoicing exceedingly.

These accounts are clearly described in visionary terms in the HIC and in the three witness statement, especially the Martin Harris account, I'm not sure how you can read this any other way.  Think about this Martin description, it sounds like Martin wasn't even in the same Vision that Joseph was having, when it says "whilst at the same moment Martin Harris cried out".  This sounds like Joseph experienced a vision that was the same as earlier with David & Oliver, and that while Joseph was experiencing this vision of the angel, he hears Martin Harris cry out "Tis enough" mine eyes have beheld".  Its like they weren't even experiencing the vision together, but individually.  

This also reminds me of the revelation where Joseph and Sidney Rigdon are repeating what they are individually seeing in vision and that each of them are confirming that they saw what the other person saw.  

[smac97]

9 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Others here would know more about American metallurgy. From what I've read, depletion gilding (including tumbaga) began with the Chavin and Moche in Peru as early as the 1st millennium BC. As far as I know, it was not found in a Mesoamerican context until the 10th century AD. If the plates were made of tumbaga, we'd have to explain how the Nephites had the technology in Mesoamerica 1500 years too early.

Tumbaga is likely an austronesian technology, and the word itself is taken from the austronesian word for copper. There is evidence of the Sa-Huynh-Kalanay using and trading gold alloys as far back as 1000 BC or earlier. For this reason, Heine-Geldern and William Solheim proposed that their trading network extended as far as Peru. This would explain the Valdivian pottery puzzle and the presence of haplogroup Q1b1 and C3 in Ecuador. 

If Nephi was gilding tumbaga plates in the 6th century BC, how? It's a convenient claim because it resolves the weight problem. But nobody has explained where an Israelite learned how to make tumbaga plates.

Actually, it would seem we should focus on Mormon, not Nephi.  The Plates were, after all, an abridgement of other, more ancient records by Mormon around 400 A.D.  The very act of abridging would have required Mormon to have access to "blank" plates.  I think it's rather a stretch to suggest that Mormon would have needed to rely on a cache of plates created by Nephi 1,000 years before.  So the purported anachronism wouldn't be 1,500 years off, but instead about 600 years.  

Moreover, consider this item:

Quote

While internal clues in the Book of Mormon support a geographical area like Mesoamerica, the Andean region of South America has a history of metalworking that more closely parallels its time period. Farther away geographically but closer chronologically are the Moche, a people known for advanced art and metallurgy that flourished in northern Peru 1,000 years before the Inca.

In 2006, a mummy was found in a Moche tomb, dating to A.D. 450. This female was buried with two large metal war clubs and was covered with many thin sheets of a copper-gold alloy, wrapped up in the burial cloth (See A.R. Williams, “Mystery of the Tattooed Mummy,” National Geographic, June 2006, pp. 74, 78-79). A similar alloy known as “tumbaga” has been found in later Mesoamerican sites, but this may be the earliest find of the metal, which has been suggested as a likely material for the Book of Mormon. The fact that it has such an early date is also encouraging.

And here (emphases added):

Quote

Were the Book of Mormon plates pure gold, or were they made from an alloy that looked like gold? The most serious investigation of this question was done 45 years ago by Read H. Putnam of Evanston, Wyoming, a blacksmith and metallurgist. [1] Working first from the general dimensions of the set of plates as reported by eyewitnesses, he calculated that a block of pure gold of that size would have weighed a little over 200 pounds. A number of witnesses, however, put the weight of the set at about 60 pounds. The discrepancy can be partly accounted for by the fact that the leaves must have been handcrafted, presumably by hammering, and irregularities in flatness would have left air space between the plates. This led Putnam to surmise that the entire set of plates would have weighed probably less than 50 percent of the weight of a solid block of the metal.

Because the weight of a metal depends on its purity, we must also consider whether the plates were of pure gold. The Nephites were aware of purity distinctions and alloys. We know, for example, that the "brass" plates were of an alloy (quite surely bronze, a copper-tin mixture) [2] and that the plates of Ether were specifically distinguished as being of "pure" gold (Mosiah 8:9). Furthermore, Nephi taught his associates "to work in all manner of" metals and "precious ores" (2 Nephi 5:15). Yet nowhere does the text say that the Nephites' plates were of pure gold.

Joseph Smith's brother William specifically said that the material of the plates was "a mixture of gold and copper." [3] (Someone must have provided an objective basis for that statement, for the natural assumption would have been that the plates were pure gold.) The cautious statements by other witnesses, including Joseph Smith himself, who spoke of the plates as having "the appearance of gold," suggest that the metal may have been an alloy. [4]

Putnam observed that the only two colored metals from antiquity were gold and copper. An alloy of those two elements was called "tumbaga" by the Spaniards and was in common use in ancient tropical America for manufacturing precious objects. Putnam put forward the reasonable hypothesis that metal plates made in Mormon's day were of that material (the earliest Mesoamerican archaeological specimen of tumbaga—made from a hammered metal sheet—dates to the same century, the fifth century AD, when Moroni hid up the plates he had in his possession). [5] If Mormon's Book of Mormon plates were made of tumbaga, their weight would have been much less than had they been made of pure gold. Putnam made that point in mathematical detail and concluded that the total weight of the plates in Joseph Smith's charge would have been near the 60-pound figure reported by several witnesses.

...

[1] "Were the Plates of Mormon of Tumbaga?" Improvement Era, September 1966, 788–89, 828–31; also in Ross T. Christensen, ed., Papers of the Fifteenth Annual Symposium on the Archaeology of the Scriptures (Provo, Utah: Extension Publications, BYU Division of Continuing Education, 1964), 101–9. Putnam's findings are summarized in "The 'Golden' Plates," in Reexploring the Book of Mormon, ed. John W. Welch (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book and FARMS, 1992), 275–77.

[2] See John L. Sorenson, An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book and FARMS, 1985), 283–84; and his "Metals and Metallurgy Relating to the Book of Mormon Text" (FARMS, 1992).

[3] William Smith interview, The Saints' Herald, 4 October 1884, 644.

[4] "The Testimony of Eight Witnesses," Book of Mormon; and Joseph Smith Jr., "Church History," Times and Seasons, 1 March 1842.

[5] David M. Pendergast, "Tumbaga Object from the Early Classic Period, Found at Altun Ha, British Honduras (Belize)," Science 168, 3 April 1970, 117.

So it seems like the purported anachronism may not be quite as problematic as it seemed.

Thanks,

-Smac