Curious about cafeteria doctrines

[RevTestament]

6 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I suspect that it is the membership of the Church, and not the Church as an institution, that has not understood, and finds it difficult to accept. I believe that Joseph said as much.  He taught them as much as they were willing to bear, or as much as the Lord knew they were willing to hear.

How does an "institution" understand anything? An institution is a legal sum of its individuals. When I read JS I am enlightened. I tell myself he understands. And the King Follett was one of his crowning understandings. Move forward a decade, and its a disconnect for me. We have BY instituting slavery which JS had denounced. We have black members showing up in SLC to receive their ordinances and being shunned. We have BY promulgating stuff that seems unscriptural and even heretical to me. On the one hand he speaks well of the Bible and on the other he expressly and willingly contradicts it. Let's just say BY does not fill me with light. Most of what he said was OK, but let's just say he definitely had his quirks. Are you going to tell me the people were more willing to bear this than JS? Or did what JS teach just get forgotten for awhile in favor of other pet doctrines? The exaltation JS taught got dropped, and the exaltation by polygamy substituted. That is how I see it anyway. If JS had lived, I think the result would have been much different.

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I am fairly convinced that none of us really understand who we are.  We say we're the sons and daughters of God, but that's just words.  What that entails is something we're apparently not quite able to take in.  At this stage of existence, anyway.

Well, I have to basically agree with you here. After intensely studying the gospel for years, I still find new clues. I have been expressing them here in this forum, but I haven't gotten any(or very little) feedback that the Church is ready to take it in. In my view the Church has not fully accepted what the scriptures teach. It is still partially stuck in Protestant thought. I guess that is to be expected since that is where a majority of the Church membership came from. The Church is in for a paradigm shift, and has not and does not see it coming because it has been stuck.

[Stargazer]

44 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

How does an "institution" understand anything? An institution is a legal sum of its individuals. When I read JS I am enlightened. I tell myself he understands. And the King Follett was one of his crowning understandings. Move forward a decade, and its a disconnect for me. We have BY instituting slavery which JS had denounced. We have black members showing up in SLC to receive their ordinances and being shunned. We have BY promulgating stuff that seems unscriptural and even heretical to me. On the one hand he speaks well of the Bible and on the other he expressly and willingly contradicts it. Let's just say BY does not fill me with light. Most of what he said was OK, but let's just say he definitely had his quirks. Are you going to tell me the people were more willing to bear this than JS? Or did what JS teach just get forgotten for awhile in favor of other pet doctrines? The exaltation JS taught got dropped, and the exaltation by polygamy substituted. That is how I see it anyway. If JS had lived, I think the result would have been much different.

3

I think you're right about that, if Joseph had lived, but I am given to understand that his mission here was finished and the Lord called him to a new one. And I am also given to understand that Brigham was called of God to do what he in fact did. It seems that each age requires its own prophet, and each prophet is suited to that age in which he is called. I'm sure this will become clear in time.

And you're not the only one who has a problem with Brigham Young. I don't, myself, because I know who called him, and I don't expect perfection in any mortal man.

But you should cut Brother Brigham some slack. A long time ago he said something that bears a curious similarity to what you have written, paraphrasing Joseph:

“Many years ago the Prophet Joseph observed that if the people would have received the revelations he had in his possession and wisely acted upon them, as the Lord would dictate, they might in their power to do and understand have been many years ahead of what they then were.”

I tend to think of Brother Brigham as the schoolmaster, provided to the Saints since they were so much in need of remedial instruction.

44 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Well, I have to basically agree with you here. After intensely studying the gospel for years, I still find new clues. I have been expressing them here in this forum, but I haven't gotten any(or very little) feedback that the Church is ready to take it in. In my view the Church has not fully accepted what the scriptures teach. It is still partially stuck in Protestant thought. I guess that is to be expected since that is where a majority of the Church membership came from. The Church is in for a paradigm shift, and has not and does not see it coming because it has been stuck.

Have you seen Bernard Gui's nice long signature?  If you haven't, I suggest you locate one of his posts and have a read. It's about cats and bags. Heh heh. 

You're right that, as a church, we are stuck with limited revelation because as a group we're not ready for what the Lord could give us.  This is why I cling to certain scriptures:

• And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full. (Alma 12:10 - in context with Alma 12:9-11).
• But great and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the mysteries of his kingdom which he showed unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion; Which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not lawful for man to utter; Neither is man capable to make them known, for they are only to be seen and understood by the power of the Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who love him, and purify themselves before him; To whom he grants this privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves; (DC 76:114-117)
• For there is a time appointed for every man, according as his works shall be. God shall give unto you knowledge by his Holy Spirit, yea, by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost, that has not been revealed since the world was until now; (DC 121:25,26 -- in context with DC 121:26-32)

All of this seems to strongly suggest that individual Saints could be blessed with knowledge far more extensive than that offered to the Saints in general, because of their weakness. But the Lord has to be able to trust you, as it is written: "It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him." (Alma 12:9)

But a warning: if you go seeking additional revelation you better be sure your heart is sure and your life is congruent with God's will, because there is another being who will be anxious to lead you astray with counterfeits. So be careful what you ask for.

[RevTestament]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I think you're right about that, if Joseph had lived, but I am given to understand that his mission here was finished and the Lord called him to a new one. And I am also given to understand that Brigham was called of God to do what he in fact did. It seems that each age requires its own prophet, and each prophet is suited to that age in which he is called. I'm sure this will become clear in time.

And you're not the only one who has a problem with Brigham Young. I don't, myself, because I know who called him, and I don't expect perfection in any mortal man.

But you should cut Brother Brigham some slack. A long time ago he said something that bears a curious similarity to what you have written, paraphrasing Joseph:

“Many years ago the Prophet Joseph observed that if the people would have received the revelations he had in his possession and wisely acted upon them, as the Lord would dictate, they might in their power to do and understand have been many years ahead of what they then were.”

I tend to think of Brother Brigham as the schoolmaster, provided to the Saints since they were so much in need of remedial instruction.

Have you seen Bernard Gui's nice long signature?  If you haven't, I suggest you locate one of his posts and have a read. It's about cats and bags. Heh heh. 

I accept BY as what the Church needed at the time. He was a great organizer and a powerful leader. My point in harping on him is not that I reject him as a rightful leader of the Church, but that I don't think the church or its members accept everything he taught as doctrine. He provides some of the best fodder for the point I think. On the other hand he did have some insight - even if he saw incompletely or somewhat dimly - and made some pretty accurate prophecies, which the Church would now like to forget.

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You're right that, as a church, we are stuck with limited revelation because as a group we're not ready for what the Lord could give us.  This is why I cling to certain scriptures:

• And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full. (Alma 12:10 - in context with Alma 12:9-11).
• But great and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the mysteries of his kingdom which he showed unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion; Which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not lawful for man to utter; Neither is man capable to make them known, for they are only to be seen and understood by the power of the Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who love him, and purify themselves before him; To whom he grants this privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves; (DC 76:114-117)
• For there is a time appointed for every man, according as his works shall be. God shall give unto you knowledge by his Holy Spirit, yea, by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost, that has not been revealed since the world was until now; (DC 121:25,26 -- in context with DC 121:26-32)

All of this seems to strongly suggest that individual Saints could be blessed with knowledge far more extensive than that offered to the Saints in general, because of their weakness. But the Lord has to be able to trust you, as it is written: "It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him." (Alma 12:9)

But a warning: if you go seeking additional revelation you better be sure your heart is sure and your life is congruent with God's will, because there is another being who will be anxious to lead you astray with counterfeits. So be careful what you ask for.

There is certainly good advice there brother Stargazer. I think the Gnostics are a good example of getting led astray.

The oracles of God are not a light thing. He takes them quite seriously I assure you, and expects much from whoever receives them.

Doctrine and Covenants 90:4-5

4 Nevertheless, through you shall the ^aoracles be given to another, yea, even unto the church.

5 And all they who receive the ^aoracles of God, let them beware how they hold them lest they are accounted as a light thing, and are brought under condemnation thereby, and stumble and fall when the storms descend, and the winds blow, and the ^brains descend, and beat upon their house.

I will proffer that the oracles work something like this:

Revelation 10:9-10

9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.

10 And I took the little book out of the angel’s hand, and ^aate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

Those who want to understand the oracles better be ready for 111% commitment. As our friendly neighborhood spiderman's uncle said: "With great power comes great responsibility." But he stole that from wiser sages including Solomon,  decrees made by the French National Convention, and our very own FDR. I will echo that with great spiritual knowledge comes great responsibility. 

This is what Yeshua taught in Luke: "For unto whomsoever ^cmuch is ^dgiven, of him shall be much ^erequired: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

Edited September 22, 2017 by RevTestament

[mfbukowski]

10 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Mark, I am having some difficulty conceptualizing what you are saying here. Maybe some examples would help. What would a theology look like which includes "language games" in scriptural hermeneutics?

It means roughly that any interpretation that enriches your life is acceptable. Literalism is as good as metaphor which is as good as allegory which is as good as seeing archetypes.

A six day creation could be seen as you redefining your world in a Six-Day period in your life.

That's just an example it's not the way that that I necessarily take it.

[mnn727]

There are some things I didn't believe that I later found to be true.

I still have items I don't believe but they really don't matter to my salvation/exaltation. Where the Garden of Eden was does not affect my salvation at all.

BTW those many Mormons claim the GoE was in Missouri, no Prophet ever made that claim (if someone has hard evidence of a revelation, please correct me) . What was claimed is that after being kicked out of the Garden, Adam and Eve ended up worshiping God at a place we now call  Adam-ondi-Ahman

[mnn727]

On 9/20/2017 at 12:54 AM, The Nehor said:

I just do not see how discussing it can help. And, to be frank, there are some Sunday School teachers that should NEVER be trusted to lead discussion on polygamy. That is why most learn the most about it in seminary where teachers are usually vetted better.

There are some Sunday school teachers that should NEVER be trusted to teach period!

[mnn727]

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 I wish the church would just be more clear whether church policy is coming by committee or declared by revelation through a spokesman from God.

Church POLICY  and Church DOCTRINE are 2 entirely different things.

Doctrine will never come from a committee, Policy can come from any source as long as its approve by the FP and Qof12

[mnn727]

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paying tithing on net vs. gross income.

This still coming up?!?! 

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“The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this” (First Presidency letter, Mar. 19, 1970).

Some believe that's Net, some may believe that's Gross, some believe its something else.

No one has the authority to say its one thing for anyone other than themselves, and only after prayerfully taking it to the Lord.

[RevTestament]

5 hours ago, mnn727 said:

There are some things I didn't believe that I later found to be true.

I still have items I don't believe but they really don't matter to my salvation/exaltation. Where the Garden of Eden was does not affect my salvation at all.

Thank you for your thoughts here mnn727. I agree. I stayed rather retrospect about BY for many years, and I actually believe he was given insight about Adam which the Church later confounded. Maybe it's because BY didn't say it very well or was just seeing through the glass darkly so to speak. I view the issue as the key of Michael teaching something that somehow BY saw even if imperfectly. He must have prayed about it. I didn't really accept any of the Adam-God stuff until I think I was shown about it too. Then it made sense to me. However, I do not believe the temporal man Adam is Heavenly Father. The key represents something highly significant about the lineage of the Father so to speak. So when speaking in spiritual terms about the key of Michael, what BY said makes lots of sense. So I don't mean to denigrate BY. However, there are other things I just don't accept, and will not teach. I already listed them so won't repeat, but suffice it to say that even BY said that he was expressly departing from scripture concerning the birth of Jesus, and that he was not conceived of the Holy Spirit. BY uses the term begotten. Suffice it to say that Yeshua was not begotten as Heavenly Father's son by being born on this earth. He was begotten this way in the manner of the flesh, so since BY never makes this clear as far as I have seen, I accept what he said to this extent. But I will not depart from Luke on this point based on BY's theory. He never told us that the Lord told him anything - he just proclaims it. Sorry, in my book that is not good enough to rewrite scripture. Hence, the subject of this thread.

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BTW those many Mormons claim the GoE was in Missouri, no Prophet ever made that claim (if someone has hard evidence of a revelation, please correct me) . What was claimed is that after being kicked out of the Garden, Adam and Eve ended up worshiping God at a place we now call  Adam-ondi-Ahman

I believe Spring Hill was named Adam-ondi-Ahman after the original valley for a purpose. I don't believe they are the same places anymore than I believe the Jerusalem of the Nephites was the Jerusalem of David and Solomon.1