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poptart

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What I have studied in eons past indicates that the vast majority of the stuff current has little to no connection to the original groups they are thinking they are modeling themselves on.

Perhaps things have changed and someone actually was able to find credible research and built a new belief off of that, but I doubt it.

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7 minutes ago, Calm said:

What I have studied in eons past indicates that the vast majority of the stuff current has little to no connection to the original groups they are thinking they are modeling themselves on.

Perhaps things have changed and someone actually was able to find credible research and built a new belief off of that, but I doubt it.

Pretty much.  To be fair a lot of religions are like that nowadays, modern Lutheranism is nothing like it used to be, as is the mass. 

About the only ones I know of that have an uninterupted lineage, buddhism and Shinto.

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4 hours ago, poptart said:

Curious if anyone knows what this is, has ever studied it and understands the meaning behind the runes.  Normally would not ask something like this here but there are all types of folk here, has to be atleast one heathen here.

I didn't watch the video.  I can talk a little bit about runes an where they originated from, I could even suggest a few sources you could study that could help you gain an better understanding of old norse religion and culture, but it would be in generalities only.  What I wouldn't suggest is to use any sources that stem from neoshamanic or new paganism, meaning most of the purple unicorn (new-age) areas of the internet. 

Calm makes a very good point here: 

1 hour ago, Calm said:

What I have studied in eons past indicates that the vast majority of the stuff current has little to no connection to the original groups they are thinking they are modeling themselves on.

Perhaps things have changed and someone actually was able to find credible research and built a new belief off of that, but I doubt it.

Most of the modern movements of this bent are trying to reconstruct a belief system that they cannot even possibly understand.  I am not speaking of scholarly chops or intelligence, but these kind of ancient practices were observed by a people that had a very different mindset, for example they were highly animistic and had a very different perception of time (more similar to belief found in Shinto). Most of these reconstructions are happening in modern western cultures, and ways of being like animism are so very foreign to they way they think and react to the world, that they likely won't ever truly be able to have a true understanding of what they are dabbling in.  The indigenous people that I work with would say it is not safe even try to reconstruct an ancient spiritual practice like runes.  Foolishness.

Shamans/Neo-Shamans by Robert J. Wallis is a good resource if you are interested in how these type of reconstructions are occurring in the west and the reaction of varies communities to them.  Be warned, he spends way too much time on the new pagan and new druids of England in my opinion, but I think you will understand the importance of Calm's comment once you see what a hash they are making in their efforts to recreate that which was lost.

1 hour ago, poptart said:

Pretty much.  To be fair a lot of religions are like that nowadays, modern Lutheranism is nothing like it used to be, as is the mass. 

About the only ones I know of that have an uninterupted lineage, buddhism and Shinto.

Toaism has an even more ancient lineage.  And even further back you will have uninterrupted lineages of teachings from in a few cultures in places like Siberia or the remote parts of South America. The people I am professionally working with have an oral tradition that stretches back to the mammoths, and a surprising genetic continuity stretching back directly from the early Neolithic hunter-gatherers who inhabited the same region.  A recent paper published this year firmly established their DNA continuity to nearly 8,000 years ago through testing, but the site the samples were taken from goes back even further. There are people and places that have uninterrupted lineages longer and more solid than even buddhism (which is fairly modern on the world's timescale), you just have to know where to look.  Iceland does have small communities of people that still follow what might be considered old norse religion, so you might look there.  Outside of the modern infux of believers, they have probably been practicing their religious beliefs continuously since it was first settled.  It is a pretty cool thing.

After all of that...to understand the runes in any way you are going to need to think and perceive the way they did, the best way to start, go find norse myths that were preserved in Icelandic literature and steep yourself in them for several decades.

Edited by deli_llama
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Ok, I just watched it, but I will be honest, it was very hard not to just turn it off.

The video titles itself "Spiraling Into Shamanism: a shaman's journey into self awareness."  That should be your first red flag that this might be of lesser or null value.  Shamans are not part of old norse religion, and anyone claiming insight into, or the role of, an old norse shaman would be deceiving themselves and you.  I wouldn't trust the information in that video.

Also shamans never call her/himself shaman.  That is the height of arrogance and would offend the spirits.  Others in the community might call someone a shaman, or the community might understand that person has that particular path, but a person wouldn't take that title, or use that title, on their own.

Plenty of red flags that this video might contain suspect information.

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4 hours ago, poptart said:

Pretty much.  To be fair a lot of religions are like that nowadays, modern Lutheranism is nothing like it used to be, as is the mass. 

About the only ones I know of that have an uninterupted lineage, buddhism and Shinto.

"Modern" Lutheranism? Modernism began with Luther in 1517! Exactly 500 years ago. The Mass? I am glad just to see you use the word. There is a new Mass, valid but defective. (Fine but necessary distinctions for Catholics). The "old Mass" as folk here might think of it, is ever new, and the aging Woodstock bishops who predominate for now (hippies) including the apparent vicar of Christ in Rome don't understand why your generation are drawn to it. http://www.crisismagazine.com/2013/the-rise-of-latin-mass-youth

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13 hours ago, deli_llama said:

I didn't watch the video.  I can talk a little bit about runes an where they originated from, I could even suggest a few sources you could study that could help you gain an better understanding of old norse religion and culture, but it would be in generalities only.  What I wouldn't suggest is to use any sources that stem from neoshamanic or new paganism, meaning most of the purple unicorn (new-age) areas of the internet. 

Calm makes a very good point here: 

Most of the modern movements of this bent are trying to reconstruct a belief system that they cannot even possibly understand.  I am not speaking of scholarly chops or intelligence, but these kind of ancient practices were observed by a people that had a very different mindset, for example they were highly animistic and had a very different perception of time (more similar to belief found in Shinto). Most of these reconstructions are happening in modern western cultures, and ways of being like animism are so very foreign to they way they think and react to the world, that they likely won't ever truly be able to have a true understanding of what they are dabbling in.  The indigenous people that I work with would say it is not safe even try to reconstruct an ancient spiritual practice like runes.  Foolishness.

Shamans/Neo-Shamans by Robert J. Wallis is a good resource if you are interested in how these type of reconstructions are occurring in the west and the reaction of varies communities to them.  Be warned, he spends way too much time on the new pagan and new druids of England in my opinion, but I think you will understand the importance of Calm's comment once you see what a hash they are making in their efforts to recreate that which was lost.

Toaism has an even more ancient lineage.  And even further back you will have uninterrupted lineages of teachings from in a few cultures in places like Siberia or the remote parts of South America. The people I am professionally working with have an oral tradition that stretches back to the mammoths, and a surprising genetic continuity stretching back directly from the early Neolithic hunter-gatherers who inhabited the same region.  A recent paper published this year firmly established their DNA continuity to nearly 8,000 years ago through testing, but the site the samples were taken from goes back even further. There are people and places that have uninterrupted lineages longer and more solid than even buddhism (which is fairly modern on the world's timescale), you just have to know where to look.  Iceland does have small communities of people that still follow what might be considered old norse religion, so you might look there.  Outside of the modern infux of believers, they have probably been practicing their religious beliefs continuously since it was first settled.  It is a pretty cool thing.

After all of that...to understand the runes in any way you are going to need to think and perceive the way they did, the best way to start, go find norse myths that were preserved in Icelandic literature and steep yourself in them for several decades.

Go on, you have my attention.  When I started down this road I figured I'd have a lot of sorting to do.  What I do see are groups wanting to rebuild and make the northern path relavent to us.  You have people like the irninfolk who now have a community and others like the afa who are now considered a hate group.

9 hours ago, 3DOP said:

"Modern" Lutheranism? Modernism began with Luther in 1517! Exactly 500 years ago. The Mass? I am glad just to see you use the word. There is a new Mass, valid but defective. (Fine but necessary distinctions for Catholics). The "old Mass" as folk here might think of it, is ever new, and the aging Woodstock bishops who predominate for now (hippies) including the apparent vicar of Christ in Rome don't understand why your generation are drawn to it. http://www.crisismagazine.com/2013/the-rise-of-latin-mass-youth

Old school lutherans preserved german culture, language and taught the history of the reformation, they sure don't now.  Also as far as the mass goes i think it's the yearning for some form of tradition, something the generations before us tossed out the window, as a rule anyway. 

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Thank you. I don't like making assumptions and decided to ask. 

I am going to stand by my original thought—there isn't much of a road to wander. If, and it is a big if, it is something you are truly interested in, then you ought to pack yourself up and move to a part of Iceland where the tradition has been upheld from the beginning. Live with local people, learn their language, immerse yourself and wait.

There isn't anything online, or in any of the new reconstructions that will have concrete value. With as much respect as I can offer, their understanding is shallow, their rituals are most often a hodgepodge of (what they imagine is) Native American (or, the primitive), texts that post date the actual practices--often from uniformed sources reporting rumor, and modern new age / neoshamanism culture. Does it work for some people? It seems to, and that tells me more that there is a general spiritual hunger then that it is actually useful. Let them go at it, and if there is some good great. I wouldn't recommend it myself.

Odinism didn't exist until late last century, don't let anyone fool you into thinking these movements are anything but modern (made up) reconstructions. 

It is a complex issue. 

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13 minutes ago, deli_llama said:

Thank you. I don't like making assumptions and decided to ask. 

I am going to stand by my original thought—there isn't much of a road to wander. If, and it is a big if, it is something you are truly interested in, then you ought to pack yourself up and move to a part of Iceland where the tradition has been upheld from the beginning. Live with local people, learn their language, immerse yourself and wait.

There isn't anything online, or in any of the new reconstructions that will have concrete value. With as much respect as I can offer, their understanding is shallow, their rituals are most often a hodgepodge of (what they imagine is) Native American (or, the primitive), texts that post date the actual practices--often from uniformed sources reporting rumor, and modern new age / neoshamanism culture. Does it work for some people? It seems to, and that tells me more that there is a general spiritual hunger then that it is actually useful. Let them go at it, and if there is some good great. I wouldn't recommend it myself.

Odinism didn't exist until late last century, don't let anyone fool you into thinking these movements are anything but modern (made up) reconstructions. 

It is a complex issue. 

You're absolutely correct and unfortunatly immigration to Iceland and a lot of the fun places is rather difficult.  I'd love to live there, the place is low crime, they threw the bankers in jail, they still name streets after the old gods and yeah, I just love the culture.  Also want to see this at a football game soooo bad.

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, poptart said:

You're absolutely correct and unfortunatly immigration to Iceland and a lot of the fun places is rather difficult.  I'd love to live there, the place is low crime, they threw the bankers in jail, they still name streets after the old gods and yeah, I just love the culture.  Also want to see this at a football game soooo bad.

 

 

 

Try this out: http://www.nordicacademicpress.com/bok/old-norse-religion-in-long-term-perspectives/

I would loan it to you if I could. 

Edited by deli_llama
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2 hours ago, poptart said:

Hmm, there's an Ebook.  This is the stuff I like to get my hands on when I can.

Oh sure, *now* there is an ebook version.  

There are a few other sources on the same topic I could suggest for you. Some I know are also ebooks. I believe that the link I provided shows a couple more recommendations at the bottom of the page. Send me a private message if you would like a list and I will see if I can't put something together tomorrow.

 

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