Origins: Native Americans as a Lost Tribe

[RevTestament]

3 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

The BoM makes clear that Lamen was a Lamanite. Alma 55:4  And now it came to pass that when Moroni had said these words, he caused that a search should be made among his men, that perhaps he might find a man who was a descendant of Laman among them.   (for the sake of discussion I'm playing along as if this was real instead of fiction) You're discounting the all kinds of possibilities.  But the answer lays right in Verse 8.  Its evening, the Lamenite sentries see movement.  Someone is coming towards them in the evening, light is low...with low light it is hard to distinguish color of skin...so the Lamenite sentries...are alerted...but Lamen talks to them in their native tongue...and as he approaches they can see that he is a descendant of Lamen and carries the same dark and loathsome skin color that they have.

Note that Moroni didn't send just any body...he searched for a descendant of Lamen among his men...he purposely sent a Lamanite, someone with the same visible skin curse as Lamen...not a Nephite Why? Because he needed someone with the same color skin as those he was going in to spy on.  Other wise he could have sent in any White Nephite...but he didn't...he sent a Lamenite...so that the Lamenite guards would not be alerted to his true mission.

Do you have any more soft balls you need me to hit out of the park?

Presumably as a follower, the "curse" would have been lifted from Lamen and he would have changed color if "skin" referred to skin pigmentation. Since Laman's skin color was indistinguishable from that of his former Lamanite kin, and did not betray him as being Nephite, the presumption is that "skin" didn't refer to skin pigmentation, but something else.like appearance.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Pretty sure I've never called you a bigot or any other name for that matter.  In fact I try to be respectful in my post towards other posters...despite our opposing POV

No, you just called all the founding members of my faith bigots which I find much more obnoxious and bigotey.

[Johnnie Cake]

59 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Presumably as a follower, the "curse" would have been lifted from Lamen and he would have changed color if "skin" referred to skin pigmentation. Since Laman's skin color was indistinguishable from that of his former Lamanite kin, and did not betray him as being Nephite, the presumption is that "skin" didn't refer to skin pigmentation, but something else.like appearance.

Then why would Moroni search among his men for a descendant of Lamen?  To what end? Why not just send one of his trusted white Nephites if skin color was not important for the success of the mission?

Edited July 31, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[Johnnie Cake]

33 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

No, you just called all the founding members of my faith bigots which I find much more obnoxious and bigotey.

Where exactly have I called all of the founding fathers of your faith (I'm assuming this is referring to the LDS Church) bigots?  Going back to my initial post in this thread in which I was replying to the OP, I merely stated that the racist themes found in the BoM were born out of  the bigotry and racism that was prevalent when the book was written.  

[HappyJackWagon]

40 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

No, you just called all the founding members of my faith bigots which I find much more obnoxious and bigotey.

Feeling a tad bit defensive today?

[The Nehor]

55 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Feeling a tad bit defensive today?

No, I am feeling more offensive today.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Where exactly have I called all of the founding fathers of your faith (I'm assuming this is referring to the LDS Church) bigots?  Going back to my initial post in this thread in which I was replying to the OP, I merely stated that the racist themes found in the BoM were born out of  the bigotry and racism that was prevalent when the book was written.  

So Joseph coopted this racism as you said but you did not mean to imply he was a bigot? I do not buy it.

[Johnnie Cake]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

So Joseph coopted this racism as you said but you did not mean to imply he was a bigot? I do not buy it.

If he was merely mirroring what we with our modern eyes can clearly see as the racism and bigotry of his day, was he a bigot?  Well...his contemporaries would not have thought so....We have the advantage over Smith.  We can see what he could not did not see....so we have that advantage and can see the racism and bigotry of his day. Smith was, if anything, a man of his time.

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Then why would Moroni search among his men for a descendant of Lamen?  To what end? Why not just send one of his trusted white Nephites if skin color was not important for the success of the mission?

Because also presumably, the Nephites were not familiar with the corrupted language of the Lamanites, which the BoM says the Nephites had great difficulty with. They could barely understand the Lamanites at that point, so they needed someone who could truly pass off as Lamanite.

Personally, I do believe the appearance of the Lamanites changed, but this was of their own doing rather than a curse being imposed upon them. I believe they intermarried with natives during the 30 or so years after the first arrival of the Lehites. The change in appearance was noticeable, so the Nephites concluded it was a cursing which allowed them to identify them. It also explains how the smaller Lamanite group grew faster than the Nephite group and apparently was able to escape the dangers of inbreeding - which otherwise would have been quite serious for such a small group of perhaps no more than 6-8 people. If this small group had mostly male children who married native women, this would allow them to grow faster than the Nephites. Further, it explains why the Hebrew language of the Lamanites became corrupted so quickly - it became intermingled with a native tongue. It may also help explain why Mormon described himself as a "pure descendant" of Lehi in 3 Nephi 5:20, although the Mulekites also introduced other genetic lines into the geographic area. This also explains where the Lamanites learned some of their dark and filthy practices such as cannibalism. 

[Darren10]

9 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

This is the 2nd time you've said this. As I recall last time, you were unable to show that I called you a "homophobe" but stated your words bordered on homophobic. Do you see any difference? In case you don't, I'll explain. One is calling you something--homophobe. The other is describing a behavior- "bordering" on homophobic. One is name calling, the other isn't. Give it a rest, man. That was months ago.

You said that my words were homophobic  ("borderline homophobic") clearly implying I was homophobic. You then used that line, admitting it wasn't your best moment, to apply to all of the Church if Jesus Christ of latter-Day Saints. You constantly purport civility in dialoguing yet you fail to reach it. That's my main point.

I still think it was funny that you said, "wanker". 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

If he was merely mirroring what we with our modern eyes can clearly see as the racism and bigotry of his day, was he a bigot?  Well...his contemporaries would not have thought so....We have the advantage over Smith.  We can see what he could not did not see....so we have that advantage and can see the racism and bigotry of his day. Smith was, if anything, a man of his time.

You seriously want me to believe that this is what you were trying to say? This sad, tired old discussion about presentism?

[Hestia]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

No, I am feeling more offensive today.

Knock it off.

[The Nehor]

21 minutes ago, Hestia said:

Knock it off.

Awwwwww.....

But I was told that as a believer I could say this kind of stuff with impunity due to the horrible double standard here. He lied to me? This seems a lot like punity. One more childhood illusion shattered.  

[Darren10]

11 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

The BoM makes clear that Lamen was a Lamanite. Alma 55:4  And now it came to pass that when Moroni had said these words, he caused that a search should be made among his men, that perhaps he might find a man who was a descendant of Laman among them.   (for the sake of discussion I'm playing along as if this was real instead of fiction) You're discounting the all kinds of possibilities.  But the answer lays right in Verse 8.  Its evening, the Lamenite sentries see movement.  Someone is coming towards them in the evening, light is low...with low light it is hard to distinguish color of skin...so the Lamenite sentries...are alerted...but Lamen talks to them in their native tongue...and as he approaches they can see that he is a descendant of Lamen and carries the same dark and loathsome skin color that they have.

Note that Moroni didn't send just any body...he searched for a descendant of Lamen among his men...he purposely sent a Lamanite, someone with the same visible skin curse as Lamen...not a Nephite Why? Because he needed someone with the same color skin as those he was going in to spy on.  Other wise he could have sent in any White Nephite...but he didn't...he sent a Lamenite...so that the Lamenite guards would not be alerted to his true mission.

Do you have any more soft balls you need me to hit out of the park?

If you were to walk among Americans you'd be visibly indistinguishable from them. As soon as you talk it would be easy to tell you don't speak American. You speak English, but not American English. (On a side note, I still can't tell the difference between an Englishman from an Australian when they enter my car for an Uber ride). So I think that's why Moroni sought ought a Lamanite descendant. For his language abilities and signs he gave to the Lamanite guards. 

Edited August 1, 2017 by Darren10

[Honorentheos]

9 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

That's a bit much. The Book of Mormon is mostly aligned with what most Americans believed about the history of Native Americans in 1830. 

Yes, and it was largely wrong.

9 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Besides, its not as far fetched as it seems at first glance. Take the Jaredites for example. They migrated from Mesopotamia around 2500 BC up into the Pontic Steppe and then east across Asia. Around 2500 BC they sailed in boats across the Pacific.

None of this is in the text itself. One has to first assume the Book of Ether is true and then go looking for external facts one can insert into the BoM narrative to come up with this.

9 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

This isn't science fiction.

No, there's not much science in the BoM. But it's been well described as a pseudepigraphical attempt at scripture which I think is quite accurate.

[Honorentheos]

10 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Brilliant

Thanks. If I could give you rep points I would have a few times in the thread.

[Honorentheos]

28 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

If you were to walk among Americans you'd be visibly indistinguishable from them. As soon as you talk it would be easy to tell you don't speak American. You speak English, but not American English. (On a side note, I still can't tell the difference between an Englishman from an Australian when they enter my car for an Uber ride). So I think that's why Moroni sought ought a Lamanite descendant. For his language abilities and signs he gave to the Lamanite guards. 

These arguments are silly. Seriously. The text says Moroni was looking for someone descended from Laman which demands it be something about their ethnic appearance. Language is a matter of culture. If my parents were born in America but moved to Australia where I was born and raised I'd sound completely like a Australian no matter what I look like. I have an uncle who moved to the Carolinas at a young age from Utah and after 5 decades there has as strong an accent as his wife who lived there her whole life. Language is cultural. The text makes no sense at all when tried to make it bend this way. Had Moroni sought out someone who was a recent dissenter from the Lamanites there would be a good case here. That's not what the text says.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Honorentheos

[Honorentheos]

4 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Because also presumably, the Nephites were not familiar with the corrupted language of the Lamanites, which the BoM says the Nephites had great difficulty with. They could barely understand the Lamanites at that point, so they needed someone who could truly pass off as Lamanite.

Personally, I do believe the appearance of the Lamanites changed, but this was of their own doing rather than a curse being imposed upon them. I believe they intermarried with natives during the 30 or so years after the first arrival of the Lehites. The change in appearance was noticeable, so the Nephites concluded it was a cursing which allowed them to identify them. It also explains how the smaller Lamanite group grew faster than the Nephite group and apparently was able to escape the dangers of inbreeding - which otherwise would have been quite serious for such a small group of perhaps no more than 6-8 people. If this small group had mostly male children who married native women, this would allow them to grow faster than the Nephites. Further, it explains why the Hebrew language of the Lamanites became corrupted so quickly - it became intermingled with a native tongue. It may also help explain why Mormon described himself as a "pure descendant" of Lehi in 3 Nephi 5:20, although the Mulekites also introduced other genetic lines into the geographic area. This also explains where the Lamanites learned some of their dark and filthy practices such as cannibalism. 

See above.

[Honorentheos]

7 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Presumably as a follower, the "curse" would have been lifted from Lamen and he would have changed color if "skin" referred to skin pigmentation. Since Laman's skin color was indistinguishable from that of his former Lamanite kin, and did not betray him as being Nephite, the presumption is that "skin" didn't refer to skin pigmentation, but something else.like appearance.

Laman is described as a very recent dissident from the Lamanites who had been a servant of the previous Lamanite king killed a couple of chapters earlier. Presumably he just came over to the Nephites based on the text. There is no reason in the text to assume that this Laman would have looked like a Nephite. Quite the opposite, Moroni is looking for someone who looks like a Lamanite otherwise there is no reason at all for needing someone to be a descendant of Laman for this covert op. If it was because they all looked similar but he needed someone who spoke like a Lamanite, he would have needed to actively seek out a recent dissenter who was raised Lamanite. The text tells us specifically what Moroni was seeking - a skilled curelom trainer. Just kidding. But yes, something unique to the universe that is the BoM narrative - a Lamanite who is ethnically distinguishable from a Nephite. I.e. - a descendant of Laman.

Again, why fight the text on this? The Church has been clear in the past where it stood. So the modern day Mormon is more enlightened. Cool. Well, it might be cool if that was how it was handled. This dodgy behavior is not so cool.

[omni]

On 7/30/2017 at 7:34 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

As Brant Gardner has pointed out on this board,

2 Nephi 5:21, “and he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.”

That this is metaphorical should be apparent from the language used elsewhere in the Book of Mormon, and from similar biblical texts:

2 Nephi 30:6, “their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white [pure] and delightsome people.”
Acts 9:18, “And  immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith”
Daniel 12:10 "Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried"
Psalm 51:2,7 “Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. . . . Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.”

Lamentations 4:7–8 “Her Nazarites were purer than snow, they were whiter than milk, they were more ruddy in body than rubies, their polishing was of sapphire:  Their visage is blacker than a coal; they are not known in the streets: their skin cleaveth to their bones; it is withered, it is become like a stick.”

Song of Songs 1:5-6 “I am black, but comely, O ye daughters of Jerusalem, as the tents of Kedar, as the curtains of Solomon.  Look not upon me, because I am black, because the sun hath looked upon me: my mother’s children were angry with me;”

Alma 32:42, “ And because of your diligence and your faith and your patience with the word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you, behold, by and by ye shall pluck the fruit thereof, which is most precious, which is sweet above all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white, yea, and pure above all that is pure; and ye shall feast upon this fruit even until ye are filled, that ye hunger not, neither shall ye thirst.”

Mormon 5:15, “this people shall be scattered, and shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, . . and this because of their unbelief and idolatry.”  16, “For behold, the Spirit of the Lord hath already ceased to strive with their fathers; . . .” 17, “They were once a delightsome people, and they had Christ for their shepherd; . . .”

In the case of the Amlicites, they set the mark upon themselves (Alma 3:13-19), not realizing that they were fufilling the curse of God.

Indeed, as pointed out in detail by Hugh Nibley, Lehi in the Desert, CWHN V:73-74, this metaphorical style of referring to one's countenance was quite common among the Bedouin.

What's so odd is that Joseph had the best interpreter imaginable, (the power of God) yet he still chose language that would cause generations of LDS to believe that the curse was a literal darkening of the skin.

That's got to make you wonder just a little what was Joseph / Holy Spirit / God /  15th century translation committee thinking?

 

[Johnnie Cake]

6 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Because also presumably, the Nephites were not familiar with the corrupted language of the Lamanites, which the BoM says the Nephites had great difficulty with. They could barely understand the Lamanites at that point, so they needed someone who could truly pass off as Lamanite.

Personally, I do believe the appearance of the Lamanites changed, but this was of their own doing rather than a curse being imposed upon them. I believe they intermarried with natives during the 30 or so years after the first arrival of the Lehites. The change in appearance was noticeable, so the Nephites concluded it was a cursing which allowed them to identify them. It also explains how the smaller Lamanite group grew faster than the Nephite group and apparently was able to escape the dangers of inbreeding - which otherwise would have been quite serious for such a small group of perhaps no more than 6-8 people. If this small group had mostly male children who married native women, this would allow them to grow faster than the Nephites. Further, it explains why the Hebrew language of the Lamanites became corrupted so quickly - it became intermingled with a native tongue. It may also help explain why Mormon described himself as a "pure descendant" of Lehi in 3 Nephi 5:20, although the Mulekites also introduced other genetic lines into the geographic area. This also explains where the Lamanites learned some of their dark and filthy practices such as cannibalism. 

I'm enjoying you bend, stretch and insert meaning into the BoM that isn't there from a direct reading of the book to accommodate your belief that the book isn't racist...but I'm not convinced.  I understand that many of these apologetic interpretations are necessary to make the book sync with reality...but all it really does is end up undermining the credibility of the book itself.  If the most correct book on the face of the earth needs its own side car of re-definitions for words the already have clear understanding...you've lost the argument. How many BoM words require apologetic tweaking to make the book sync with reality? Dozens.  So I guess we add skin to that long list of other words that don't hold their common definitions and meaning when found in the BoM. Words that include translation, horse, steel, bow & arrow, ox, barley, wheat, void, and so on and so on...

Edited August 1, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[Darren10]

15 hours ago, Honorentheos said:

These arguments are silly. Seriously. The text says Moroni was looking for someone descended from Laman which demands it be something about their ethnic appearance. Language is a matter of culture. If my parents were born in America but moved to Australia where I was born and raised I'd sound completely like a Australian no matter what I look like. I have an uncle who moved to the Carolinas at a young age from Utah and after 5 decades there has as strong an accent as his wife who lived there her whole life. Language is cultural. The text makes no sense at all when tried to make it bend this way. Had Moroni sought out someone who was a recent dissenter from the Lamanites there would be a good case here. That's not what the text says.

What "demands"? If I were to look for a descendent among the British, that demands race? What about descendent of Mexico? Does that demand light brown skinned people? Cuban? Moroni wanted someone to communicate to the Lamanites as a Lamanite, yes? "Demanding" race is on your part, not the Book of Mormon narrative's part. 

As for your examples of how language does not alter immediately, we do not know how long the Lamanite descendent walked among the Nephites. We do not know if he was fifth generation or first generation, or a recent immigrant. 

Edited to ad: I was wrong, we do know how long Lamanite, the descendent of Lamanite walked among the Nephites. 

Quote

4 And now it came to pass that when Moroni had said these words, he caused that a search should be made among his men, that perhaps he might find a man who was a descendant of Laman among them.

5 And it came to pass that they found one, whose name was Laman; and he was one of the servants of the king who was murdered by Amalickiah.

So, that would be about ten years. I'm sure Laman could still talk authentic Lamanite by then. 

Searching among the Moroni's men for a descendent of Laman could indicate many Lamanites among the Nephites or just a few. It could mean Lamanites several generations down or a few. It could mean the person of the "correct skin color" or that skin color was a non issue for Nephites and Lamanites. "Demanding" that this includes race is still your interjection, not something from the Book of Mormon narrative. 

Edited August 1, 2017 by Darren10

[Honorentheos]

6 hours ago, Darren10 said:

What "demands"? If I were to look for a descendent among the British, that demands race? What about descendent of Mexico? Does that demand light brown skinned people? Cuban? Moroni wanted someone to communicate to the Lamanites as a Lamanite, yes? "Demanding" race is on your part, not the Book of Mormon narrative's part. 

As for your examples of how language does not alter immediately, we do not know how long the Lamanite descendent walked among the Nephites. We do not know if he was fifth generation or first generation, or a recent immigrant. 

Edited to ad: Inwas wrong, we do know how long Lamanite, the descendent of Lamanite walked among the Nephites. 

So, that would be about ten years. I'm sure Laman could still talk authentic Lamanite by then. 

Searching among the Moroni's men for a descendent of Laman could indicate many Lamanites among the Nephites or just a few. It could mean Lamanites several generations down or a few. It could mean the person of the "correct skin color" or that skin color was a non issue for Nephites and Lamanites. "Demanding" that this includes race is still your interjection, not something from the Book of Mormon narrative. 

Again, Moroni was looking for someone who was a descendant of Laman the son of Lehi. He wasn't looking for a dissident <- Someone who came over from the Lamanites to join the Nephites, who was raised among the Lamanites. He wasn't looking for someone to communicate to the Lamanites. He was looking for someone who could infiltrate the Lamanites. Since they needed to be a descendant of Laman they clearly needed to look like one. His criteria would not exclude people who were not raised among Lamanites which is necessary for someone to sound like one if there was a difference.

Remember, Lamanites and Nephites are conveyed in the narrative as sharing a written and spoken language. Of course Laman was a recent arrival among the Nephites but that isn't the criteria Moroni cited. I don't get what makes this is so hard to understand. It didn't matter if the person found was born among the Nephites or a recent arrival based on the criteria that they be a descendant of Laman. This makes the question of if he had a Lamanite accent or not irrelevant to Moroni. What does matter is that he shared genes with Laman that are exclusively Lamanite and not Nephite. Language has nothing to do with that.

Descendant v. dissident. This matters.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Honorentheos

[RevTestament]

10 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I'm enjoying you bend, stretch and insert meaning into the BoM that isn't there from a direct reading of the book to accommodate your belief that the book isn't racist...but I'm not convinced.  I understand that many of these apologetic interpretations are necessary to make the book sync with reality...but all it really does is end up undermining the credibility of the book itself.  If the most correct book on the face of the earth needs its own side car of re-definitions for words the already have clear understanding...you've lost the argument. How many BoM words require apologetic tweaking to make the book sync with reality? Dozens.  

Yeah, I know you will never be convinced because you have a preset notion and interpretation which you will not give up. It doesn't matter what I show. You won't accept Hebrew nomenclature because you wish to impose a modern interpretation upon it.

Job 30:30 My skin is black upon me, and my bones are burned with heat.

According to you Job turned into a black man because God cursed him and burnt his bones... or something else is going on...he is describing being outcast of God and losing favor of those in his community...kind of like the Lamanites...could it be that your ship is sinking? 

Quote

So I guess we add skin to that long list of other words that don't hold their common definitions and meaning when found in the BoM. Words that include translation, horse, steel, bow & arrow, ox, barley, wheat, void, and so on and so on..

.Or maybe we should consider the way the Hebrews used the words since the BoM is supposed to be a Hebrew text which reads strangely because it is a unique mix of ancient English and Hebrew syntax, which of course every NY farm boy was able to pick up in Joseph's day. So obviously according to you the modern plain meaning of scales falling from their eyes should apply when they turn white again, and you've been missing the true Lamanites all along because you haven't looked for the Natives with scales over their eyes.

When "skin" is being used with other figurative language, the likelihood it being used figuratively goes way up...at least when one compares it to other ancient Hebrew scripture - just fyi.

[RevTestament]

11 hours ago, omni said:

What's so odd is that Joseph had the best interpreter imaginable, (the power of God) yet he still chose language that would cause generations of LDS to believe that the curse was a literal darkening of the skin.

That's got to make you wonder just a little what was Joseph / Holy Spirit / God /  15th century translation committee thinking?

In Joseph's day Natives were not called blacks. If anything they were called red men. The language used in the BoM comports with English Biblical translations of ancient Hebrew texts. See my post above.