bsjkki Posted May 5, 2017 Posted May 5, 2017 (edited) This is a sad story to read. One of the young students who spoke out about BYU's Title IX office and how they treated her is featured in this story. The boy who assaulted her has now been linked to four cases. One of the reasons BYU cited in their proposed amnesty clause, was the importance of identifying offenders. The Orem police did not take her case seriously and now more girls were harmed by the same man. http://www.sltrib.com/news/5239811-155/she-reported-a-sex-assault-to "MacDonald, who no longer attends BYU, said it now appears to her that the school put more effort into investigating whether she had consensual sexual contact than Orem police put into investigating an accused abuser." Melba Latu, a BYU Title IX investigator put this in his report, "According to Latu's summary, Butler said MacDonald consented to the sexual contact. However, Latu's summary specifically notes that Butler indicated some degree of protest or struggle occurred, stating: "Madeline was not as vocal about her objections as she has made it out to be. Samuel was not as aggressive as Madeline has said he was. Samuel pushed, but when Madeline said, 'no,' he stopped." Edited May 5, 2017 by bsjkki 2
Calm Posted May 5, 2017 Posted May 5, 2017 (edited) "Gary Cox, associate dean for Salt Lake Community College's criminal justice program, said there is no statewide "central clearinghouse" for officers to easily find people named in police reports but not arrested, prosecuted or convicted. Showing a pattern of conduct may help a prosecution, he said, but circulating the name of a person accused but not charged "takes us down a dangerous path." He added: "To say there's a gap in the system, it depends."" I get this, but am also iffy on it as I see it as unlikely multiple (as in spaced out over time and in multiple locations) false accusations would be made for noncelebrity or rich people. Much more likely they will have substance. There might be a problem if it is just a proximity allegation and not a direct accusation naming them ( police search for individuals living in the area and find a first report, then the second report based on that gets added, and that makes them look more suspicious, etc). But there needs to be some way to track accusations because sometimes that is the only evidence there will be. Edited May 6, 2017 by Calm 1
Robert F. Smith Posted May 5, 2017 Posted May 5, 2017 8 minutes ago, Calm said: "Gary Cox, associate dean for Salt Lake Community College's criminal justice program, said there is no statewide "central clearinghouse" for officers to easily find people named in police reports but not arrested, prosecuted or convicted. Showing a pattern of conduct may help a prosecution, he said, but circulating the name of a person accused but not charged "takes us down a dangerous path." He added: "To say there's a gap in the system, it depends."" I get this, but am also iffy on it as I see it as unlikely multiple false accusations would be made for noncelebrity or rich people. Much more likely they will have substance. There might be a problem if it is just a proximity allegation and not a direct accusation naming them ( police search for individuals living in the area and find a first report, then the second report based on that gets added, and that makes them look more suspicious, etc). But there needs to be some way to track accusations because sometimes that is the only evidence there will be. This is a failure of investigation 101, and Cox should know better. Most rapists, like burglars and bank robbers, are serial offenders. It is not so hard to do a good background check on such people, even if there have not yet been any arrests. It means tracking where they have been, what they have been doing, and who their associates are. It is time-consuming, and people have to be interviewed extensively, but it pays off. The ordinary patrol officer is not trained to do that, and it takes years to train a good detective. Title IX investigators at BYU likely have no idea what an investigation really is, which is why only a trained police detective specializing in sexual crime should ever approach the subject. 4
bsjkki Posted May 5, 2017 Author Posted May 5, 2017 (edited) 57 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: This is a failure of investigation 101, and Cox should know better. Most rapists, like burglars and bank robbers, are serial offenders. It is not so hard to do a good background check on such people, even if there have not yet been any arrests. It means tracking where they have been, what they have been doing, and who their associates are. It is time-consuming, and people have to be interviewed extensively, but it pays off. The ordinary patrol officer is not trained to do that, and it takes years to train a good detective. Title IX investigators at BYU likely have no idea what an investigation really is, which is why only a trained police detective specializing in sexual crime should ever approach the subject. Rape and sexual assault are so under reported that I always wonder how many victims there are for every 'one' that actually gets reported to the police. The Orem Police failed on so many levels. Edited May 5, 2017 by bsjkki 3
strappinglad Posted May 6, 2017 Posted May 6, 2017 Mistakes were made in many areas and some investigators look a lot like United or Delta agents. That said, investigations of sexual assault must be done very carefully because of the immediate visceral reactions from the media and the public. There are quite a few well known national cases of the accused being eventually cleared of all charges because of false reports. A teacher friend of mine was accused by 3 young girls (13/14 ) of sexual misconduct. His life was ruined, his career destroyed. After a rush to judgment cooler heads prevailed and it turned out the girls had conspired to mess him up. They confessed and of course nothing happened to them. His life was cut short. All those involved in sexual assault cases are subject to destructive forces. Because the outcomes can be so lasting and far reaching society must be very thorough as well as cautious in revealing too much private info too soon. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted May 6, 2017 Posted May 6, 2017 1 hour ago, strappinglad said: Mistakes were made in many areas and some investigators look a lot like United or Delta agents. That said, investigations of sexual assault must be done very carefully because of the immediate visceral reactions from the media and the public. There are quite a few well known national cases of the accused being eventually cleared of all charges because of false reports. A teacher friend of mine was accused by 3 young girls (13/14 ) of sexual misconduct. His life was ruined, his career destroyed. After a rush to judgment cooler heads prevailed and it turned out the girls had conspired to mess him up. They confessed and of course nothing happened to them. His life was cut short. All those involved in sexual assault cases are subject to destructive forces. Because the outcomes can be so lasting and far reaching society must be very thorough as well as cautious in revealing too much private info too soon. Same thing happened in Salem, Mass, in the late 1700s, and the hysterical girls managed to get a number of villagers killed by well-meaning but very foolish adults. When the girls began accusing the elite of witchcraft, the matter suddenly was brought to a close. A century later, Nathaniel Hawthorne, a descendant of one of the hanging judges, was still trying to exorcise the ghosts of Salem.
Storm Rider Posted May 6, 2017 Posted May 6, 2017 I have a brother-in-law who spent five years in prison. I have never asked for a complete understanding of the event that landed him in prison, but it involved a young girl of 14 years, exposure, and touching. BIL always denied everything. The girl reported the event to her mother and BIL went to prison. Girl recants story saying she made the whole thing up. BIL gets out of jail and is identified as a sexual predator/deviant and must report his whereabouts to an "officer" - can't travel at will, etc. He lost his marriage, his home, his livelihood. He now sells vacuum cleaners and is shunned by his community. These kinds of charges are more than just serious. Victims must be heard and perpetrators removed from society. However, one innocent person punished is too many; one innocent person's life destroyed by false accusations is too many. 1
Calm Posted May 6, 2017 Posted May 6, 2017 Innocent lives are destroyed when accusations of actual abuse are ignored, innocent lives are destroyed when false accusations are believed. It is a tragic crime, even when it never occurred. 1
thesometimesaint Posted May 6, 2017 Posted May 6, 2017 The McMartin preschool trial is a cautionary story. Even with trained professionals on the case. SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMartin_preschool_trial
bsjkki Posted May 6, 2017 Author Posted May 6, 2017 So...where do you propose the line is drawn. I know of two predators walking free-one currently at BYU. There is no evidence and neither victim is up for being traumatized further by the 'system.' They are currently trying to get enough therapy to overcome suicidal thoughts and ptsd. One victims goal is to be able to go to the grocery store alone. I abhor false accusations because they hurt real victims. 3
Storm Rider Posted May 7, 2017 Posted May 7, 2017 1 hour ago, bsjkki said: So...where do you propose the line is drawn. I know of two predators walking free-one currently at BYU. There is no evidence and neither victim is up for being traumatized further by the 'system.' They are currently trying to get enough therapy to overcome suicidal thoughts and ptsd. One victims goal is to be able to go to the grocery store alone. I abhor false accusations because they hurt real victims. This crime, and everything that surrounds it, is probably one of the most heinous, most complex, and most difficult to handle. I have no patience for individuals who sexually abuse other individuals - in the bluntest terms possible I believe they should be made to where it is impossible to ever commit such a crime again - whatever it takes. Conversely, if an individual alleges a crime falsely their punishment should be extreme in a like manner - where they will never make such an accusation again. I don't know how to make this situation better or to ensure that the guilty are punished and the innocent exonerated.
Wants2know Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 On 5/6/2017 at 3:18 PM, Calm said: Innocent lives are destroyed when accusations of actual abuse are ignored, innocent lives are destroyed when false accusations are believed. It is a tragic crime, even when it never occurred. Agreed. Also good to note is the fact that many victims recant under pressure to do so, or guilt from the ramifications and fallout that occurs. To further complicate things... just because there is a recanting does NOT mean it didn't happen.
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