SeekingUnderstanding Posted May 16, 2017 Posted May 16, 2017 8 hours ago, mfbukowski said: If God made everybody any particular way we would not even have the categories. We categorize differences not similarities. It's like saying "If God created everyone without heads, that would be a problem for civilization" We would not be "us" and we would not need what we call "heads". After all if God created all of us with gizzards it would still be wrong to kill each other. Having an inborn characteristic has nothing to do with morality. It's like multiplying both sides of an equation by 1. It's a distinction without a difference. The moral problem arises with differences in behavior, not physical characteristics AND you are still talking about people, physical characteristics, and not behaviors. Incredible. Ever notice that "sin" is a behavior? It is by definition a behavior destructive to society. We are not born with sins Being homosexual is not a behavior or a sin (at least if we are talking LDS standards). Perhaps you meant to say, if all people (regardless of their orientation) sought only relationships with people of the same gender civilization would not survive. I'm not sure what insights I can gain from this. It seems no different than if all people sought only relationships with red-haired people from South Africa, civilization would not survive. If all women had 4 or more children, civilization would not survive. 1
hope_for_things Posted May 16, 2017 Posted May 16, 2017 12 hours ago, mfbukowski said: I am not concerned about what literalists think about Mormonism. I think they are wrong. I have come to my conclusions about the idea morality mostly by reading Kant I highly suggest you at least read this wikipedia article about Kant's moral theories https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorical_imperative I think it follows from this statement : Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law. It's a bit like your mother asking you "What if everybody acted that way?" I am not going to debate the values- they have been considered universal values for hundreds of years. Debate with Kant if you want to argue that point of view- I agree with Kant. Civilization itself requires certain characteristics of culture and I think the test of universifiabilty is a strong challenge to lifestyles. If everyone was homosexual, the view says that civilization would not survive. If everyone was polygamist, the view states that is not optimal. In short, yes it is an affirmation of traditional values but there is a reason those values are traditional They have worked for humanity for millions of years and have evolved because they work They are found in the Didache from the First Century as well as the "Way of Life" Disagree if you like- but that is their basis. Those are my values- justify your own if you can. Interesting coincidence that your ideal family construct just happens to be in alignment with current conservative Mormon flavor of the day. Just when you think you're an independent thinker. Why the assumption that family and human dynamics have remained constant for millions of years? Certainly they don't, even the biblical narratives of just the past few thousand years demonstrate dramatic changes in how women, races and ethnic groups have been treated in family settings. Your assertion of universal values for hundreds of years can't be supported by the data. I find it odd that you are talking about an evolutionary morality and in the same breath invoking an argument for traditional values. It seems to me that tradition and evolution are two very different mechanisms with very different outcomes. Also, tradition has varied so much by culture and time that I don't see much universality with respect to traditions. Lastly, can you address my question about your earlier point about a best religion. I really would like to understand how you can argue for a best religion and support that argument.
hope_for_things Posted May 16, 2017 Posted May 16, 2017 12 hours ago, BlueDreams said: I think part of my God-experiences do have focus and emphasis on community building....on creating zion. In doing so at some point I have to believe that other can have answers or experiences that isn't just for them but for others as well. I think the core LDS doctrine gives a balance and method that allows for this with minimal abuse in both excess individualism and leaning to strongly into blind obedience and/or authoritarianism. But because we are people, we still can error into both categories. The elements of our relationship to others are the core of the gospel as I believe it. I'm not sure I agree that there is a healthy balance between individualism and authoritarianism today. These are tensions that have changed dramatically over the course of the Mormon experience. Much too much blind obedience, and too much of an emphasis on individualism in the 21st century version of Mormonism in my opinion. 12 hours ago, BlueDreams said: I don't thinks this is necessarily an example of maturity or healthy thinking. Particularly since where it originated from was from a dysfunctional family that led to me being parentified and having minimal respect for my parents at the time. I think of it as a differing experience. And like all experiences left imbalanced it can be a problem. And at times it's definitely been out of balanced in my own life. It has had to be balanced out by finding respect for leaders and learning to have respect for authority to an extent. I think that it is found in mormonism...even Sunday mormonism. When I grew up I gravitated to these messages....knowing for yourself what is true or not, following the Spirit no matter what, etc. But it can be quashed by cultural expectations that may give more weight to messages that hold a respect for authority that is imbalanced and overreaching. The fact that you've arrived at these perspectives through great family trials I think is a tribute to your resolve and strength. Having a strong personal moral compass I think is very healthy. I don't think everyone that goes through the kinds of things you've gone through will arrive at the same destination, but I do think we can get to the same destination through very different paths.
mfbukowski Posted May 16, 2017 Posted May 16, 2017 2 hours ago, hope_for_things said: Thanks for sharing that talk, I found it very thought provoking. I think what it seems to express are possibly universal human feelings, but it would be interesting to have similar observations come from different cultures to better understand how they experience these last few minutes of life faced with the knowledge that they are dying. 1. Relief from guilt. I think religion unfortunately has a large role to play with inducing guilt in the first place. By creating a feeling of guilt and then providing the solution that is a powerful motivator for belief in that construct. I'm not sure an atonement is the only answer for providing relief from guilt. Other religions address guilt as well, and I'm thinking atheists I've met aren't overburdened by guilt either. I'm fine with people finding comfort in the atonement, but I'm not sure its the only way to find relief from guilt. I would argue for all these things that religion helps to comfort are just one of the many possible comforts that people can receive to these yearnings. I guess I just don't think its the only answer or necessarily the best answer. I didn't mean to imply it did provide the best answer But it might be. Obviously you cannot argue with evolution and that concept has had a tremendous functional success in relieving guilt for masses of humanity and as a concept has shown itself to be superior by its longevity. I cannot find a single example that has worked better for more people- can you??? That is my point. We have subjective needs and religion evolves to give us those needs. Thinking that religion is about whether or not Adam really lived 6,000 years ago is totally besides the point. The point of the religion is that man is fallen and we all have guilt, but Christ takes it away. The need that is solved is not about what happened or did not happen 6000 years ago but the surrender of guilt. THAT is what is life changing!! All I see around here is boneheads worrying about Adam and evolution and missing the important points every dang single time. Boneheads! My point that there WAS a "best answer" is answered by evolution itself. That idea or being or whatever that survives is the BEST answer to the problem of survival. I find that obvious The idea that works best for the most is the best idea THAT is why there IS a "best" idea I happen to think that Mormonism IS that idea because it affirms the survival of mankind better than any other idea set. THAT is what I am saying.
mfbukowski Posted May 16, 2017 Posted May 16, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, hope_for_things said: Interesting coincidence that your ideal family construct just happens to be in alignment with current conservative Mormon flavor of the day. Just when you think you're an independent thinker. Why the assumption that family and human dynamics have remained constant for millions of years? Certainly they don't, even the biblical narratives of just the past few thousand years demonstrate dramatic changes in how women, races and ethnic groups have been treated in family settings. Your assertion of universal values for hundreds of years can't be supported by the data. I find it odd that you are talking about an evolutionary morality and in the same breath invoking an argument for traditional values. It seems to me that tradition and evolution are two very different mechanisms with very different outcomes. Also, tradition has varied so much by culture and time that I don't see much universality with respect to traditions. Lastly, can you address my question about your earlier point about a best religion. I really would like to understand how you can argue for a best religion and support that argument. Survival Why do you think "traditional" values are traditional? They have survived the test of time. We shall see if today's values survive- I predict they will not. It's really that simple. For better or worse, look at the reality of Trump, Brexit and the rest. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. I have lived long enough to know there are cycles in everything. Check back with me in a hundred years or so. If Mormonism was properly understood as a materialist and humanist religion it could take over the world. Slim chance but it could happen. If not, something like it will replace it- it is already happening in various fusions between secularism and religion. The fact is people need religion - as even that article shows, and there is no other form of Christianity- also the test of time- which can be seen as harmonious with secularism- ie humanism and materialism and pragmatism Rorty himself - the great atheist postmodern secularist- was very close to Mormonism- his wife was Mormon and he "got" it- he just never had a religious experience He said he could accept a God who was a "friend" to mankind but not one who was the imperious King of The Universe. We shall see. Regardless here I am and here I will stay. It took me too long to find this combination of amazing doctrine in one place even if I do not see it as all other Mormons do. Your argument is circular Quote Certainly they don't, even the biblical narratives of just the past few thousand years demonstrate dramatic changes in how women, races and ethnic groups have been treated in family settings. In FAMILY SETTINGS. That is my point. Babies need parental figures or humanity ends. It's that simple. That which promotes the kind treatment of children wins or its all over. The rest is all words. Edited May 16, 2017 by mfbukowski
hope_for_things Posted May 16, 2017 Posted May 16, 2017 4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: I didn't mean to imply it did provide the best answer But it might be. Obviously you cannot argue with evolution and that concept has had a tremendous functional success in relieving guilt for masses of humanity and as a concept has shown itself to be superior by its longevity. I cannot find a single example that has worked better for more people- can you??? I'm not sure we can equate the successful spread of a religious system, i.e. Christianity, with the superiority of that system. Its ability to perpetuate itself may have many other contributing factors. Studies about how higher cost religions may create more devoted believers is one interesting observation, and I'm no expert on world religions so its difficult for me to comment on how Christianity compares to the other religions as far as how they deal with the problem of guilt and forgiveness. The size of the religion or how long it lasts really might have nothing to do with how well it satisfies these basic human feelings. 10 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: My point that there WAS a "best answer" is answered by evolution itself. That idea or being or whatever that survives is the BEST answer to the problem of survival. I find that obvious The idea that works best for the most is the best idea THAT is why there IS a "best" idea I happen to think that Mormonism IS that idea because it affirms the survival of mankind better than any other idea set. THAT is what I am saying. I don't believe evolution of society works the same way as biological evolution. In biological evolution any trait that helps a particular organism to survive will continue to grow within the population as organisms that possess the superior trait survive at high rates until eventually all the organisms that survive will be in possession that trait. What we're talking about with philosophy or religious beliefs operates quite differently. Any idea that is superior to another idea, might not survive because humans aren't capable of consistent rational thought, and have limited capacities for prioritizing our needs. Thinking about Maslow's hierarchy, food and shelter are the base needs, but things like relief from guilt or concerns that we've made a difference or haven't wasted our time, those kinds of concerns are towards the top of the pyramid. I would argue that if any principles of evolution apply to human behavior they will start to apply at the bottom of Maslow's hierarchy with physiological needs. For those items nearer the top, the principles of evolution may not readily apply as humans have a much more difficult time giving actual preference to beliefs and behaviors that produce better outcomes towards the top of this hierarchy. Lastly, if survival of the best ideas is an argument for Mormonism, why so few members?
hope_for_things Posted May 16, 2017 Posted May 16, 2017 (edited) 24 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Survival Why do you think "traditional" values are traditional? They have survived the test of time. We shall see if today's values survive- I predict they will not. It's really that simple. For better or worse, look at the reality of Trump, Brexit and the rest. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. I have lived long enough to know there are cycles in everything. Check back with me in a hundred years or so. If Mormonism was properly understood as a materialist and humanist religion it could take over the world. Slim chance but it could happen. If not, something like it will replace it- it is already happening in various fusions between secularism and religion. The fact is people need religion - as even that article shows, and there is no other form of Christianity- also the test of time- which can be seen as harmonious with secularism- ie humanism and materialism and pragmatism Rorty himself - the great atheist postmodern secularist- was very close to Mormonism- his wife was Mormon and he "got" it- he just never had a religious experience He said he could accept a God who was a "friend" to mankind but not one who was the imperious King of The Universe. We shall see. Regardless here I am and here I will stay. It took me too long to find this combination of amazing doctrine in one place even if I do not see it as all other Mormons do. What tradition? American western white male dominated tradition? Lets get one person from the world's 6 major populated continents together in a room and talk about what traditional values are. You'll have 6 different definitions that vary significantly. The argument for traditional values today by conservative Western Christian groups that are anti same sex marriage, is an argument ignorant of Western history and completely oblivious to world history. Tradition is highly contextual within the frames of culture and circumstance. I can appreciate that you like Mormonism and totally respect your personal convictions and journey including your identification with Mormonism as the best religion for you personally. I'm sensitive to institutional arguments for best religion, because I believe religious exclusivity claims have been one of the worst elements of organized religions as they divide people and have been used throughout history to justify all kinds of morally egregious actions. I would much prefer that Mormonism leaves all those claims behind and instead replaces them with "benefits" of Mormonism, and no longer promotes itself as superior, exclusive, or divinely more favored. These ideas are antithetical to the central message of the gospel that I find compelling. Edited May 16, 2017 by hope_for_things
mfbukowski Posted May 16, 2017 Posted May 16, 2017 50 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: What tradition? American western white male dominated tradition? Lets get one person from the world's 6 major populated continents together in a room and talk about what traditional values are. You'll have 6 different definitions that vary significantly. The argument for traditional values today by conservative Western Christian groups that are anti same sex marriage, is an argument ignorant of Western history and completely oblivious to world history. Tradition is highly contextual within the frames of culture and circumstance. I can appreciate that you like Mormonism and totally respect your personal convictions and journey including your identification with Mormonism as the best religion for you personally. I'm sensitive to institutional arguments for best religion, because I believe religious exclusivity claims have been one of the worst elements of organized religions as they divide people and have been used throughout history to justify all kinds of morally egregious actions. I would much prefer that Mormonism leaves all those claims behind and instead replaces them with "benefits" of Mormonism, and no longer promotes itself as superior, exclusive, or divinely more favored. These ideas are antithetical to the central message of the gospel that I find compelling. Why sell the benefits if there are none? The contradiction is palpable 1
hope_for_things Posted May 16, 2017 Posted May 16, 2017 52 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Why sell the benefits if there are none? The contradiction is palpable Benefits can be sold with attention to the religious baggage of centuries of coercion around exclusivity claims. It should be part of the healing process, just like we ought to be sensitive to other groups that have been mistreated in history. My Hyundai dealer is going to try and sell me on a car by telling me its the best car for the money, and tell me the multitude of benefits of that car compared to the competition. But my car dealer is not going to try and tell me that buying this car is going to put me in special status with deity and assure me some prize in the afterlife or keep me from damnation. Those are very different kinds of propositions don't you think?
hope_for_things Posted May 16, 2017 Posted May 16, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: Why sell the benefits if there are none? The contradiction is palpable Here's an example of how I envision it being done. Course in selling the benefits of religion in a morally responsible way - 101: My religion has helped my family to be more united in purpose, as we've attended we've found greater harmony in our home. I feel like a more patient person as I've actively been involved in my religion, I've been better able to control my temper. My wife has loved the activities for the women in our religion and she's formed great new friendships. I was searching for something to give my life more meaning, and when I joined this religion it gave me a new sense of purpose. I have never felt the spirit so strong before in my life, after participating in the rituals of my religion I feel closer to God than ever before During the darkest time of my life after losing my Mother to cancer, I was seeking for answers and peace and I found it through participating in this religion, it has filled the void and helped me to find the peace I was looking for. Etc.... All these and many more. This religion thing can truly be a wonderful thing if you get rid of all the fear, coercion and promises of future treasures. Edited May 16, 2017 by hope_for_things
mfbukowski Posted May 16, 2017 Posted May 16, 2017 (edited) 42 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Here's an example of how I envision it being done. Course in selling the benefits of religion in a morally responsible way - 101: My religion has helped my family to be more united in purpose, as we've attended we've found greater harmony in our home. I feel like a more patient person as I've actively been involved in my religion, I've been better able to control my temper. My wife has loved the activities for the women in our religion and she's formed great new friendships. I was searching for something to give my life more meaning, and when I joined this religion it gave me a new sense of purpose. I have never felt the spirit so strong before in my life, after participating in the rituals of my religion I feel closer to God than ever before During the darkest time of my life after losing my Mother to cancer, I was seeking for answers and peace and I found it through participating in this religion, it has filled the void and helped me to find the peace I was looking for. Etc.... All these and many more. This religion thing can truly be a wonderful thing if you get rid of all the fear, coercion and promises of future treasures. I know all that. If you can sell the benefits of life insurance (I have done that) you can sell the benefits of anything. They are very abstract. But the above does not agree with what you just said earlier about the evils of "tradition" Quote What tradition? American western white male dominated tradition? Lets get one person from the world's 6 major populated continents together in a room and talk about what traditional values are. You'll have 6 different definitions that vary significantly. The argument for traditional values today by conservative Western Christian groups that are anti same sex marriage, is an argument ignorant of Western history and completely oblivious to world history. Tradition is highly contextual within the frames of culture and circumstance. I can appreciate that you like Mormonism and totally respect your personal convictions and journey including your identification with Mormonism as the best religion for you personally. I'm sensitive to institutional arguments for best religion, because I believe religious exclusivity claims have been one of the worst elements of organized religions as they divide people and have been used throughout history to justify all kinds of morally egregious actions. This hardly seems like the same church. My question is- how can you sell the benefits- your first list above- with all the horrid effects that you describe in your second rant above? The two views of the same belief set are in conflict. And I have NEVER seen any fear or coercion in anything at church. We don't even say you have to be Mormon in this life to be exalted and we don't really believe in hell- except for maybe a few hundred really really bad guys I don't know where you get this stuff Edited May 16, 2017 by mfbukowski
hope_for_things Posted May 16, 2017 Posted May 16, 2017 8 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: This hardly seems like the same church. My question is- how can you sell the benefits- your first list above- with all the horrid effects that you describe in your second rant above? The two views of the same belief set are in conflict. I personally don't think its the same church. The church I'm selling in my benefits description is my vision for a future Mormonism without exclusive truth claims, without leader worship, and without literalistic scripture worship and with better equity for people irrespective of sex, race, gender, and orientation. It my progressive utopia version of Mormonism. I wasn't trying to make that point though, I was trying to explain that your appeal to traditions as a barometer for which values are preferred by society is impossible because traditional values are so different across history and cultures. 16 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: And I have NEVER seen any fear or coercion in anything at church. We don't even say you have to be Mormon in this life to be exalted and we don't really believe in hell- except for maybe a few hundred really really bad guys I don't know where you get this stuff Then you live in a very different church than what I've been raised in. Mormonism that I've been raised in and continue to see expressed by the brethren in conference is highly deferential to leaders and considers different perspectives to be not only dangerous, but apostate. Why else all the talks to get in line with the brethren, stay in the boat, temple recommend questions about allegiance to church leaders, etc. For goodness sake, think of how reactionary this church has been in the past few years about LGBT current events. The supreme court rules gay marriage as legal and the church requires a special letter be read in all congregations explaining how the church is against that ruling and how the church knows that gay marriage is really evil instead. That's not coercive for those who hold a different position on the subject? I know people who can't get a temple recommend over this issue specifically. That's not coercive? If holding back someone's access to the temple over a political issue isn't coercive, I don't know what is.
Atheist Mormon Posted May 17, 2017 Posted May 17, 2017 On 5/4/2017 at 8:07 AM, stemelbow said: What does reading the scriptures daily give us? Is there magic in such an action? Or is it possible we gain just as much if we read other things, meditate on other teachings daily? Maybe it's not our canonical scriptures that carry great influence but the act of reading, pondering and praying. If so, can't we read many things and get inspiration, just as much or more so? I'd say yes. what does everyone else think? Remember, as everything else in life, you are discarding 50% of it to dwell on positive aspects of it. (But of course, this comes from an eternal pessimist, skeptic guy who seldom sees the glass half full)
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