Which/where manual teaches salvation like this...

[pogi]

38 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I guess we have to agree on what "deserve" means. If we didn't "deserve" it, why did he bother?

For me, to deserve something suggests that we have earned the merit in and of ourselves.

To me, Christ did not offer grace because we deserve it, but because he is merciful and knows our potential via grace. 

If grace is something we deserve, then it is more closely related to compensation or remuneration and is not really based in mercy at all.  The fact that we are eternally indebted suggest that we are not merely being compensated for something that we deserve or merit in and of ourselves.

 

Edited April 13, 2017 by pogi

[Tacenda]

41 minutes ago, pogi said:

For me, to deserve something suggests that we have earned the merit in and of ourselves.

To me, Christ did not offer grace because we deserve it, but because he is merciful and knows our potential via grace. 

If grace is something we deserve, then it is more closely related to compensation or remuneration and is not really based in mercy at all.  The fact that we are eternally indebted suggest that we are not merely being compensated for something that we deserve or merit in and of ourselves.

 

Like the EV's mention, it's a gift, do we work for gifts normally? When we realize the significance of the free gift the more we value it and if it means salvation and without it we don't live again, how much more we should value that, IMO. Or maybe it shouldn't be labled the 'gift of grace'. Now is an especially good time to link Pres. Uchtdorf's talk, "The Gift of Grace", in honor of it being Easter this Sunday.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/the-gift-of-grace?lang=eng

If grace is a gift of God, why then is obedience to God’s commandments so important? Why bother with God’s commandments—or repentance, for that matter? Why not just admit we’re sinful and let God save us?

Or, to put the question in Paul’s words, “Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?” Paul’s answer is simple and clear: “God forbid.”²⁷

Brothers and sisters, we obey the commandments of God—out of love for Him!

Edited April 13, 2017 by Tacenda

[Bernard Gui]

17 hours ago, pogi said:

For me, to deserve something suggests that we have earned the merit in and of ourselves.

To me, Christ did not offer grace because we deserve it, but because he is merciful and knows our potential via grace. 

If grace is something we deserve, then it is more closely related to compensation or remuneration and is not really based in mercy at all.  The fact that we are eternally indebted suggest that we are not merely being compensated for something that we deserve or merit in and of ourselves.

 

I understand what you are saying. I think there is more to be said. For example,  those who kept their first estate deserved to be born into the second estate. They did something that those who were cast out did not do. They were given the promise of eternal life on certain conditions set by God. If they meet those conditions in good faith, they have his word through covenant that they will inherit everything he has. Do they not therefore in some way deserve the rewards that were promised? The doctrine of foreordination implies a measure of worthiness or deserved reward.

President Joseph F. Smith said:

“But in coming here, we forgot all, that our agency might be free indeed, to choose good or evil, that we might merit the reward of our own choice and conduct. But by the power of the Spirit, in the redemption of Christ, through obedience, we often catch a spark from the awakened memories of the immortal soul, which lights up our whole being as with the glory of our former home”

God is bound when we do what He says. The fact that he chooses to make and keep covenants with us indicates to me that we, as His children, are of great value to Him. We deserve grace in the sense that we have some measure of intrinsic merit that inclines God toward us and motivates him to act in our behalf. 

God says do this and do that. If you do, I will do this for you. If he keeps his word that implies we did something for which we are rewarded. "Inasmuch as men do good they shall in no wise loose their reward." Of course, no one can keep all the commandments, hence the need for the infinite Atonement of Jesus. But for grace to abound, do we not have to play in the game?

Or are we totally depraved and unconditionally elected? .....drifting off into Calvinism, I am.

Edited April 14, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[clarkgoble]

16 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Like the EV's mention, it's a gift, do we work for gifts normally?

If I get a gift and it's at the post office I still need to do the work to accept the gift. That's the analogy I make for grace. Grace is always offered but we need to be willing to take a hold of it. It's just that Evangelics, especially of the Calvinist sort (which is most), want to say that even turning to embrace God somehow is a work. Which I admit I just can't figure out. The grace is always there and all we have to do is open ourselves to it. The ordinances we have access to are themselves bestowed grace which if we make us of open us to further grace and so on.

[pogi]

17 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Like the EV's mention, it's a gift, do we work for gifts normally? When we realize the significance of the free gift the more we value it and if it means salvation and without it we don't live again, how much more we should value that, IMO. Or maybe it shouldn't be labled the 'gift of grace'. Now is an especially good time to link Pres. Uchtdorf's talk, "The Gift of Grace", in honor of it being Easter this Sunday.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/the-gift-of-grace?lang=eng

If grace is a gift of God, why then is obedience to God’s commandments so important? Why bother with God’s commandments—or repentance, for that matter? Why not just admit we’re sinful and let God save us?

Or, to put the question in Paul’s words, “Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?” Paul’s answer is simple and clear: “God forbid.”²⁷

Brothers and sisters, we obey the commandments of God—out of love for Him!

Excellent talk by President Uchtdorf!  I think he answers all of those questions very well.

I like this part here:

Quote

Salvation cannot be bought with the currency of obedience; it is purchased by the blood of the Son of God...I wonder if sometimes we misinterpret the phrase "after all we can do." We must understand that "after" does not equal "because."

It is important to note that while grace is a free gift for all who will partake, there are conditions to partake.  Those conditions are repentance via a broken heart and a contrite spirit. 

Quote

Today and forevermore God’s grace is available to all whose hearts are broken and whose spirits are contrite

 

[pogi]

7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I understand what you are saying. I think there is more to be said. For example,  those who kept their first estate deserved to be born into the second estate. They did something that those who were cast out did not do. They were given the promise of eternal life on certain conditions set by God. If they meet those conditions in good faith, they have his word through covenant that they will inherit everything he has. Do they not therefore in some way deserve the rewards that were promised? The doctrine of foreordination implies a measure of worthiness or deserved reward.

President Joseph F. Smith said:

“But in coming here, we forgot all, that our agency might be free indeed, to choose good or evil, that we might merit the reward of our own choice and conduct. But by the power of the Spirit, in the redemption of Christ, through obedience, we often catch a spark from the awakened memories of the immortal soul, which lights up our whole being as with the glory of our former home”

God is bound when we do what He says. The fact that he chooses to make and keep covenants with us indicates to me that we, as His children, are of great value to Him. We deserve grace in the sense that we have some measure of intrinsic merit that inclines God toward us and motivates him to act in our behalf. 

God says do this and do that. If you do, I will do this for you. If he keeps his word that implies we did something for which we are rewarded. "Inasmuch as men do good they shall in no wise loose their reward." Of course, no one can keep all the commandments, hence the need for the infinite Atonement of Jesus. But for grace to abound, do we not have to play in the game?

Or are we totally depraved and unconditionally elected? .....drifting off into Calvinism, I am.

I agree that the worth of souls is great in the sight of God.  But how did we become a soul in the first place if not by grace?  In every step along the way to exaltation, grace precedes greatness.

God does reward us for our actions, but you have to consider that it is by grace that we can act in righteousness in the first place.  Faith, charity, humility, etc. are all gifts of grace.  In other words, we cannot live the commandments except by grace.

As clarkgoble well put it:

Quote

That is the spirit is the enabling condition that allows us to do things we couldn't on our own. It's also a transformative power that as we act on the spirit and live in the spirit we change our very nature. This is living and progressing grace to grace, which even Jesus had to do. Effectively most of D&C 93 is talking about grace and showing that just as Jesus became the father through grace, so to do we as we allow the spirit into our lives. We can reject it but it is constantly being poured out upon us. 

And:

The idea that God's always ahead of us and we're always in his debt. We're progressing grace to grace. Yet at each point what we do is enabled by God so we can't boast of ourselves.

I think King Benjamin explains it well in Mosiah 2:

Quote

 

23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.

24 And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?

25 And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the dust of the earth; but behold, it belongeth to him who created you

 

 

[clarkgoble]

19 hours ago, pogi said:

For me, to deserve something suggests that we have earned the merit in and of ourselves.

To me, Christ did not offer grace because we deserve it, but because he is merciful and knows our potential via grace. 

If grace is something we deserve, then it is more closely related to compensation or remuneration and is not really based in mercy at all.  The fact that we are eternally indebted suggest that we are not merely being compensated for something that we deserve or merit in and of ourselves.

This is where I think Mormons and Evangelicals talk past one an other. Deserve, as you note, has a lot of connotations. If God says he'll bless us if we do something it doesn't necessarily mean we deserve that blessing. Reminds me of that old 80's movie Brewster's Millions. He gets $400,000,000 if he can spend $10,000,000 or something like that. Does that mean spending $10,000,000 means he deserves the four hundred million? Again Evangelicals want to take a theology of total depravity and then call doing anything work. This leads rather naturally into the idea of cheap grace which often gets combined with the idea that just saying you believe in Christ makes everything happen automatically. Saving you in your sins rather than from your sins.

The blessings we get for obedience aren't payroll. They aren't deserved.

To me "deserve" means appropriate cost. So if someone offers me a car for $100 instead of the $20,000 it's worth, I have to work a bit for it but I also don't deserve the cost. The way the topic gets discussed often is in terms of a false dichotomy where either I deserve it all or there's no effort involved.

 

Edited April 14, 2017 by clarkgoble

[Bernard Gui]

14 hours ago, pogi said:

It is important to note that while grace is a free gift for all who will partake, there are conditions to partake.  Those conditions are repentance via a broken heart and a contrite spirit. 

Baptism, laying on of hands, etc.