Mormon Missionaries Target Audience Members from "The Book of Mormon" Musical

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

Instead of the show being shut down, the missionaries stand outside hawking (giving away) copies of the Book of Mormon. I agree with your analysis of the show, I don't agree with placing missionaries outside the theatre in order to distribute books. I did read the post from a parent, referencing to a letter from a missionary, about how successful the program was. Apparently the mission president thinks the idea of handing out the BofM at this show is a success.

You may not approve of the method, but it is an interestingly measured and creative response to a bigoted attack. The Church has no organization to defend itself such as CAIR, the Jewish Anti-Defamation League, or the Catholic League.

Can you imagine the response if an award-winning Broadway show had a show-stopping scene where the cast joyfully thrust middle fingers toward heaven and shouted obscenities at Allah over and over to the cheers of an American audience? I don't think it would be to hand out copies of the Holy Qur'an as the audience left the building, do you? How about a rabbi being brutally violated with a copy of the Torah?  Or a Catholic nun with a crucifix?  What would be an appropriate response to those?

Well, maybe the Danites would respond. Perhaps S. Heber Young will have to investigate why they haven't.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, bcuzbcuz said:

I read your son's letter with extreme interest. It reminds me, with a bad taste in my mouth, of my experiences as a missionary in Sweden during the 1960's. I've told you before how we missionaries were pressured to sell and press BofM's into the hands of any unsuspecting person. One elder got his name to the front of our weekly newsletter by wrapping BofM's in Christmas wrapping paper, then selling them at Hötorget. He didn't tell people what they were buying. His line was, "This is a Christmas present that just costs one dollar. It would be bad form to tell you what is inside the wrapping." He asked the mission president to double his next week order of books.

We were told every book would result in a convert, somewhere down the line. Yeah, sure.

Handing out BofM's to people outside a darkened theatre following the showing of a distasteful musical is not far off the mark from what I remembered.

I swore I wasn't going to get drawn into an argument on this, but I can't let this pass.

Yes, I remember very clearly from an exchange you and I had before your recounting that experience. If you will recall correctly, I disapproved of what you say went on in your mission at that time, and I said so in no uncertain terms.

What is going on today in the Sweden Stockholm Mission with regard to the "Book of Mormon" musical is not at all comparable. I'm astounded you don't see that. This is a matter of theater-goers having an already existing curiosity about the Book of Mormon engendered by the theatrical production they have just watched and having an eagerness to have that curiosoity satisfied. The missionaries are making good use of that curiosity so as to get the Book of Mormon into the hands of these people, hoping that, in some instances, some of them will feel an inclination to find out more, investigate the Church, and perhaps accept the restored gospel. There's not a thing wrong with it my friend. Not a thing. And yes, according to my son and according to other anecdotal evidence I've heard, they have seen a measure of success from it.

And lest you forget, I, like you, was a missionary in Sweden. I understand a bit about missionary work in that land.

And while I have your attention, and since I don't intend to prolong this conversation with you after this post, let me bring up something you tossed off in one of your posts on this thread, to the effect that you walked away from the Church and became a vocal opponent of it because you don't agree with "worshiping" Joseph Smith. That you have been a Mormon and that you would now say something so patently absurd as claiming that Mormons worship Joseph Smith is circumstantial evidence of Novak's Rule (for a definition of which, see this link).

Edited March 21, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[bcuzbcuz]

55 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I swore I wasn't going to get drawn into an argument on this, but I can't let this pass.

Yes, I remember very clearly from an exchange you and I had before your recounting that experience. If you will recall correctly, I disapproved of what you say went on in your mission at that time, and I said so in no uncertain terms.

What is going on today in the Sweden Stockholm Mission with regard to the "Book of Mormon" musical is not at all comparable. I'm astounded you don't see that. This is a matter of theater-goers having an already existing curiosity about the Book of Mormon engendered by the theatrical production they have just watched and having an eagerness to have that curiosoity satisfied. The missionaries are making good use of that curiosity so as to get the Book of Mormon into the hands of these people, hoping that, in some instances, some of them will feel an inclination to find out more, investigate the Church, and perhaps accept the restored gospel. There's not a thing wrong with it my friend. Not a thing. And yes, according to my son and according to other anecdotal evidence I've heard, they have seen a measure of success from it.

And lest you forget, I, like you, was a missionary in Sweden. I understand a bit about missionary work in that land.

And while I have your attention, and since I don't intend to prolong this conversation with you after this post, let me bring up something you tossed off in one of your posts on this thread, to the effect that you walked away from the Church and became a vocal opponent of it because you don't agree with "worshiping" Joseph Smith. That you have been a Mormon and that you would now say something so patently absurd as claiming that Mormons worship Joseph Smith is circumstantial evidence of Novak's Rule (for a definition of which, see this link).

We can agree to disagree then. But thanks anyway for taking the time to respond

[Atheist Mormon]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

You know what, I feel like scrapping my quote after giving this a lot of thought. But do think some would enjoy the community, or the instance of it when being in a ward. But if you're not a member and possibly a project or missionary op, then I see how that might not be sincere at all. And who needs friends that have those reasons as their motivation to befriend, although they've been discouraged by leaders to not be friends for a missionary op only.

I just thought some who aren't bitter about the church may still get something out of it. I wish I could, but thinking on it, it probably couldn't work if you're not a believer. Although I know a member in my neighborhood that fakes it till she makes it, and everyone loves her because she stays involved and is a lot of fun. I feel like I take everything too serious. Too bad the LDS church can't include all walks of life. Like some churches out there, but they all still have their agendas I guess.

I'm still trying to overcome my disbelief, so it's baby steps to do life by myself. Way to go though!

Thank you for the heartfelt answer. However painful is I understand the answers.

[Calm]

18 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Buying ad space is frequently considered a tacit endorsement of a medium. The church has purchased ad space in the playbill. 

I can see how it might appear that way to someone.  Given that the musical itself demonstrates a dramatic difference in standards, it seems most people could understand there was no endorsement, just a recognition of the audience.

[Calm]

16 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

I still cannot see the reasoning....

Anyone who sees the play and then expresses interest in the church is doing so based on entirely different reasons than those they state. They are either attracted to the fine young men standing outside the theatre or they have had an interest in the church prior to seeing the play, or something similar. IMO a person saying "I saw the play, now I want to know more about the church", either slept through the whole musical or they are saying "they saw the play" in order to, or because of the, shock value it adds. It makes that person noteworthy for their 15 seconds.

I think it could be more like "maybe I should give equal time to a positive message about the Church".  If someone works so hard at making another look bad, I can often wonder if bias is so strong that distortion has taken place and I will research to see how accurate a report is (happens a lot to me when I hear political news about politicians or proposed laws I don't know about).

It seems pretty clear to me the Church PR dept is using its own twist for humor to get attention, a reversal of the usual meaning of the phrase.  I understand the reason for the "seen the play, now read the book" approach in general given it is common knowledge that interest gets raised in books by movies, theatre, whatever (Tolkien and Rowling reading went up after the movies, iirc).  And there is almost always the argument the book is better than the movie because of.....(think tons of arguments here that are irrelevant to why they are saying it for the BoM musical, I am definitely a pro book person, I refuse to see the Tolkien movies because I want my own images in my head, not someone else's unless I can trust they get it 'right'....Jackson didn't in my view from what little I have seen, Frodo being the baby of the group, Aragorn all angsty, no Glorfindel!!!)  So any publisher is going to reissue a book to take advantage of increased interest if the movie is expected to be decent.

However, it is dramatically different in this case because the play isn't a more superficial treatment of the same material as most movies are, but a negative portrayal.  So if that was all one knew...that the Church had such an ad in the  musical's program, then one might assume it was an endorsement rather than 'don't take their word for it, see what we are really like' response.  But for anyone walking out of the theatre, obviously that is not all they know.

Maybe it is because I spend too much time with critics interacting with believers and all kinds in between, but I don't see how any intelligent musical goer wouldn't see the show at the very least as a send up of religion itself and surely they must realize the Church is well aware of the criticism in the show of its beliefs, culture, history....I just don't see anyone but a very few once they saw it not figuring out that the Church is providing in their view evidence against the attacks in a civil way when they hand out the actual BoMs.  'Here are real missionaries doing their thing, you have a chance to find out why it is meaningful for yourself rather than assuming the musical got it right.'

Certainly the reports of those converted go along with this reasoning given what I have seen generally say 'it made me curious to see what the Church was really like'.  So while I find the usage "seen the play, read the book" somewhat distasteful myself because I would prefer if possible no association between the Church and the musical, the fact is the association is inherent to the musical itself and is always there, so it is better to give the audience a chance to see the reality.  The Church PR and the leadership that approved it made the prediction that the audience would appreciate the humor of turning the saying on its head...using it as a gentle criticism and invitation rather than suggesting acceptance or approval and the results appear to me to merit the use.

Edited March 22, 2017 by Calm

[Calm]

On March 21, 2017 at 0:53 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

I swore I wasn't going to get drawn into an argument on this, but I can't let this pass....

In case you have set up a 'follow' of the thread, I sent you an email.  Let me know please if it didn't go through...well, I guess I will know if it did go through if you respond to me.  Okay, this is just fair warning....