U & T, seer stone, nothing at all

[clarkgoble]

3 hours ago, churchistrue said:

That's about how I see it.  There are two objects.  Nephite Interpreters and seerstone(s).  Both had a stone involved and both were used by putting object in hat and head in hat to look at.  The problem here is that each were referred to later as U&T.  But most people today think of the Nephite Interpreters as the U&T and the seerstone as something else.  For example, see the heading of D&C Section 7:  Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet and Oliver Cowdery, at Harmony, Pennsylvania, April 1829, when they inquired through the Urim and Thummim as to whether John, the beloved disciple, tarried in the flesh or had died.

This is referencing the seerstone.  Random question.  What is meant by "they" in "they inquired"?  Is there any evidence that Joseph and Oliver looked in the hat together?  Or does together mean Oliver watched as Joseph looked in the hat?

 

Are we sure which stone was used? (Honest question - I don't think there's an explicit connection although the header referencing the U&T wasn't done during Joseph's life)

 

 

[Tacenda]

http://www.mormonmatters.org/2017/02/28/371-new-perspectives-on-joseph-smith-and-translation/

This is happening at Utah State as I speak. I'm anxious for it to come out as a transcript/video/audio. 

 

UPCOMING CONFERENCE

NEW PERSPECTIVES ON JOSEPH SMITH
AND TRANSLATION

16 MARCH 2017  |  9AM TO 5:30PM

4TH FLOOR, PERRY PAVILLION, JON HUNTSMAN SCHOOL OF BUSINESS,
UTAH STATE UNIVERSITY, LOGAN, UTAH

This event is free and open to the public.

 

SPEAKERS AND DISCUSSANTS INCLUDE:

RICHARD L. BUSHMAN

TERRYL GIVENS

SAMUEL M. BROWN

JARED HICKMAN

JANA RIESS

ROSALYNDE WELCH

PHILIP BARLOW

[blueglass]

The big footnotes in the essay are 17 and 20.  17 cites the paper by Welch, "The Miraculous Translation of the Book of Mormon" where he recovers all 206 of the known bom translation accounts, and then 20 with McGee's MS thesis where he unveils the history of the seer stone sequence.

 

Edited March 16, 2017 by blueglass
citation

[blueglass]

At the beginning joseph didn't use any instrument and just copied characters off the plates several pages worth and sent Martin harris out to get scholars to translate it so he could create an alphabet.  In the Michael MacKay paper, "Lucy Smith asserted that as Joseph Smith took “some measures to accomplish the translation . . . he was instructed to take off a fac simile of all of the . . . characters of the plates” [Sept 1827 - Feb 1828] - and by sending it to “learned men” he could acquire a “translation of the same.”  Later the word "all" was crossed out.  Martin Harris traveled around and in addition to visiting the Charles Anthon, it  looks like he also visited Samuel Mitchill, and Luther Bradish.  According to Joseph Knight Sr. Martin Harris first went to Philadelphia.  In Philadelphia you had the American Philosophical Society with Peter Stephen Du Ponceau a leading ethnographer and linguist expert in native american languages, as well as Samuel Rafniesque and Caleb Atwater.  Rafiniesque was an expert working on translation of the Mayan glyphs and was publishing papers by 1828 comparing the mayan with Egyptian and Chinese writing systems. Caleb Atwater was a scholar working on Native American origins and believed they may have originated from the ten lost tribes.  What's interesting is that Rafinesque was trained by Samuell Mitchill and Mitchill was the guy claiming that one native american race was wiped out by another race of native americans in upstate New York.  The weird thing is that unlike Samuel Mitchill, Charles Anthon didn't know much about ancient America, Native American languages, or Egyptian.

Edited March 16, 2017 by blueglass
format

[blueglass]

With the seer stones Joseph first borrowed the green glass from Sally Chase in 1819 and used this one to find the genesis stone;  "a young woman who was sister to willard chase had found mt a green glass that<&:> by looking through it she could see many wonderful things ... " (Lucy Smith, ''Preliminary Manuscript," LDS Archives,69, in EMO, 1:342-43)  He [Joseph] said when he was a lad, he heard of a neighboring girl some three miles from him, who could look into a glass and see anything however hidden from others, that he was seized with a strong desire to see her and her glass, that after much effort he induced his parents to let him visit her. He did so, and was permitted to look in the glass, which was placed in a hat to exclude the light He was greatly surprised to see but one thing, which was a small stone, a great way off. It soon became luminous, and dazzeled his eyes, and after a short time it became as intense as the mid-day sun. He said that the stone was under the roots of a tree or shrub as large as his arm, situated about a mile up a small stream that puts in on the South side of Lake Erie, not far &om the New York and Pennsylvania line."

[blueglass]

the discovery of the brown genesis stone: According to Wilford Woodruff's journal, "Preside[n]t Young also said that the seer stone which Joseph Smith first obtained He got in an Iron kettle 15 feet under ground.  He saw it while looking in another seers stone which a person had. He went right to the spot & dug & found it."  Wilford Woodruffs Journal,, 5:382-3.  According to the 1826 trial notes he had two stones and this brown stone (banded iron magnetite jasper genesis) was found 150 miles north near lake Erie. 

Edited March 16, 2017 by blueglass
journal

[blueglass]

the discovery of the white gazelem stone:  discovered by using the brown seer stone to dig on the property of Willard Chase under the cover story of "digging a well".  According to Brigham Young "the second seer stone Dr. Williams had." and was described as "Silecious granite" by Hosea Stout.  According to Mark Ashurst-McGee, "A careful evaluation of all relevant sources, with an emphasis on the most reliable accounts, leads to the conclusion that the stone found in the Chase well was the white seer stone and was Joseph's second stone."  According to William Hine, gazelem was a "very clear stone about the size and shape of a duck's egg".  In the 1826 trial, Arad Stowell says, "looking through another stone which was white and transparent; held the stone to the candle". David McMaster says, "testified that the 'prisoner pretended to him that he could discern objects at a distance by holding this white stone to the sun or candle " . This white stone was used to discover the U&T and plates.  In 1859 Martin Harris, "Joseph had a stone which was dug from the well of Mason Chase , 24 feet from the surface, in this stone he could see many things to my certain knowledge, it was by means of this stone he first discovered these plates>"  Gazelem was the name in pre-existence for Joseph Smith.  "This 'royal seven' apparently corresponded with the seven heads of gospel dispensations in LDS theology and with the seven archangels of Jewish legend. WW Phelps said Joseph was "one of the holy ones commissioned by his father among the royal seven, when the high council of heaven set them apart."  This white stone was shown to Wilford Woodruff during a meeting of the twelve apostles on 27 Dec. 1841.  "every man who lived on the earth was entitled to a seer stone, and should have one, but they are kept from them in consequence of their wickedness."  Millenial Star, 20 Feb 1864, 118-119.  I think as everyone knows there was a property dispute over this stone and the plates with Willard claiming ownership rights, and Joseph "finders rights".  The stone exchanged hands from Willard to Joseph back to Willard and then back to Joseph.  Willard then asked for it back and hyrum refused, and Willard chase hired the boys to attack Joseph when he retrieved the plates.  Willard who hired Joseph to dig the "well" claimed ownership over the seer stone discovered on his property using his employment, and the treasures the tool could discover as well.  The white stone was also used to "see the person he should marry."  Joseph Knight wrote, that Smith "looked in his glass and found it was Emma Hale."  The paper Philadelphia Sun wrote that some Mormons "pretend to have received a 'white stone' as in the Book of Revelations" 2:17/D&Cov 130:10-11 18 Aug. 1831.

[blueglass]

I think most are familiar with the U&T discovery, and his statements to LMS that they are "ten times better than I expected!" and "I can see anything; they are Marvelus!"  

Edited March 16, 2017 by blueglass
redundant

[Tacenda]

24 minutes ago, blueglass said:

With the seer stones Joseph first borrowed the green glass from Sally Chase in 1819 and used this one to find the genesis stone;  "a young woman who was sister to willard chase had found mt a green glass that<&:> by looking through it she could see many wonderful things ... " (Lucy Smith, ''Preliminary Manuscript," LDS Archives,69, in EMO, 1:342-43)  He [Joseph] said when he was a lad, he heard of a neighboring girl some three miles from him, who could look into a glass and see anything however hidden from others, that he was seized with a strong desire to see her and her glass, that after much effort he induced his parents to let him visit her. He did so, and was permitted to look in the glass, which was placed in a hat to exclude the light He was greatly surprised to see but one thing, which was a small stone, a great way off. It soon became luminous, and dazzeled his eyes, and after a short time it became as intense as the mid-day sun. He said that the stone was under the roots of a tree or shrub as large as his arm, situated about a mile up a small stream that puts in on the South side of Lake Erie, not far &om the New York and Pennsylvania line."

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00SSBDB4U/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=2E9502R4053XQ&coliid=I3EXF1GZ9MNEA0

I am reading this book on Kindle. The man who wrote it came on MDDB once and sort of promoted it. I emailed him and asked if it was really historical, and he said that it was fiction based on historical facts. Or something like that. I knew it was fiction, but wondered if he made some things up. I believe it is similar to how the author of "The Work and the Glory", approached it. But doesn't use fictional characters. There is quite a bit about Sally Chase and the stone you mention here. 

[Ouagadougou]

On 15.03.2017 at 5:19 AM, rongo said:

What evidence is there that most of the Book of Mormon was translated/dictated without plates and without using the U&T or the seer stone? My understanding is that the U&T was mainly used for the 116 pages, the seer stone after that, but as Joseph gained experience discerning he didn't use the plates or the seer stone. 

Can this be documented?

Thanks!

From ththe church's essay:

"Most of the accounts speak of Joseph’s use of the Urim and Thummim (either the interpreters or the seer stone), and many accounts refer to his use of a single stone. According to these accounts, Joseph placed either the interpreters or the seer stone in a hat, pressed his face into the hat to block out extraneous light, and read aloud the English words that appeared on the instrument.²⁶ The process as described brings to mind a passage from the Book of Mormon that speaks of God preparing “a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light.”^27"

https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng&old=true

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, churchistrue said:

That's about how I see it.  There are two objects.  Nephite Interpreters and seerstone(s).  Both had a stone involved and both were used by putting object in hat and head in hat to look at.  The problem here is that each were referred to later as U&T.  But most people today think of the Nephite Interpreters as the U&T and the seerstone as something else.  For example, see the heading of D&C Section 7:  Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet and Oliver Cowdery, at Harmony, Pennsylvania, April 1829, when they inquired through the Urim and Thummim as to whether John, the beloved disciple, tarried in the flesh or had died.

This is referencing the seerstone.  Random question.  What is meant by "they" in "they inquired"?  Is there any evidence that Joseph and Oliver looked in the hat together?  Or does together mean Oliver watched as Joseph looked in the hat?

 

2 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

As I mentioned he used the two stones in the spectacles in a hat for the first part of the translation. The evidence is strong they were returned and he used them at least occasionally in the second phase of translation even if there's debate over how often he used them.

I'd disagree with this only being a Biblical term. First off recall that the Nephites had the brass plates which had some semblance to our old testament. While the spectacles purport to come from the Jaredites, it appears they had a priestly function for them not that different from what plausibly the Urim & Thummim held for the levitical high priest. Both come with a breastplate. Both have a way of attaching to the breast plate. Both appear used for divinization in some fashion. The only thing missing from the Jaredite form is the 12 gems on the breastplates. That's unsurprising though given that the Jaredites predate the 12 tribes of Israel.

As I mentioned in one of the threads yesterday, what's remarkable isn't that people made a connection to the U&T but that it took until 1833 before anyone did and didn't become popular until 1835. If these are fraudulent items they clearly were designed to mimic the U&T from the Biblical account. If they weren't then it's hard to miss the parallels and think them different types of devices.

The Nephite interpreters were never used in a hat.  They were too large and functioned quite differently.  They were taken away and never returned, along with the plates.

The Book of Mormon never uses the term Urim & Thummim for a very good reason:  It was solely a biblical term, used only among the Israelites.  Never by the Nephites.  The concept is analogous, of course, but not identical.  The early Mormons were not scholars, and so were careless in their use of terminology.  Among other things, I cover some of the confused usage in my “Translation of Languages (hermēniea glōssōn I Cor 12:10),” (Independence, MO, June 1980), online 2010 at https://www.scribd.com/doc/46307834/Translation-of-Languages .

[churchistrue]

3 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

Are we sure which stone was used? (Honest question - I don't think there's an explicit connection although the header referencing the U&T wasn't done during Joseph's life)

 

 

I think we derive that because that was the time period he was using the seerstone for many various revelatory actions.

[JulieM]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

The Nephite interpreters were never used in a hat.  They were too large and functioned quite differently.  They were taken away and never returned, along with the plates.

The interpreters were returned after they were taken from Joseph because of the lost 116 pages incident, iirc.  I think they were taken and returned even after that.

When do you believe they were taken for good (and not returned)?  At the same time the plates were given back?

[Robert F. Smith]

29 minutes ago, JulieM said:

The interpreters were returned after they were taken from Joseph because of the lost 116 pages incident, iirc.  I think they were taken and returned even after that.

When do you believe they were taken for good (and not returned)?  At the same time the plates were given back?

I thought that they were taken away permanently (except for being brought back for the Witnesses), but stand to be corrected with documentation.

[blueglass]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00SSBDB4U/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=2E9502R4053XQ&coliid=I3EXF1GZ9MNEA0

I am reading this book on Kindle. The man who wrote it came on MDDB once and sort of promoted it. I emailed him and asked if it was really historical, and he said that it was fiction based on historical facts. Or something like that. I knew it was fiction, but wondered if he made some things up. I believe it is similar to how the author of "The Work and the Glory", approached it. But doesn't use fictional characters. There is quite a bit about Sally Chase and the stone you mention here. 

Interesting book.  For awhile (1827 - 1829) it was a battle of the seers with Sally scrying the location of the plates with the aid of the green glass, and Joseph divining that evil men were after them and hiding the plates in interesting locations.  Good thing they were preserved since they had to be within 50ft for the wireless translation equipment to work with his head in the hat. 

[JulieM]

14 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I thought that they were taken away permanently (except for being brought back for the Witnesses), but stand to be corrected with documentation.

"In the meantime while Martin Harris was gone with the writings, I went to visit my father’s family, at Manchester. I continued there for a short season and then returned to my place in Pennsylvania. Immediately after my return home I was walking out a little distance when behold the former heavenly messenger appeared and handed to me the Urim and Thummim again, (for it had been taken from me in consequence of my having wearied the Lord in asking for the privilege of letting Martin Harris take the writings which he lost by transgression,)..."

Here's a link with more about how they were again taken and then returned:

https://books.google.com/books?id=oGnKw3k1FGEC&pg=PT19&lpg=PT19&dq=""In+the+meantime+while+Martin+Harris+was+gone+with+the+writings,+I+went+to+visit+my+father’s+family,+at+Manchester."&source=bl&ots=gi69lz8fMu&sig=2-5ON8KCN5f71c2acSIIH3Ent0o&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi1-uCy5NvSAhViwVQKHS2zAAYQ6AEIIDAB#v=onepage&q=""In the meantime while Martin Harris was gone with the writings%2C I went to visit my father’s family%2C at Manchester."&f=false

 

 

Edited March 16, 2017 by JulieM

[Robert F. Smith]

10 minutes ago, JulieM said:

"In the meantime while Martin Harris was gone with the writings, I went to visit my father’s family, at Manchester. I continued there for a short season and then returned to my place in Pennsylvania. Immediately after my return home I was walking out a little distance when behold the former heavenly messenger appeared and handed to me the Urim and Thummim again, (for it had been taken from me in consequence of my having wearied the Lord in asking for the privilege of letting Martin Harris take the writings which he lost by transgression,)..."

Here's a link with more about how they were again taken and then returned:

https://books.google.com/books?id=oGnKw3k1FGEC&pg=PT19&lpg=PT19&dq=""In+the+meantime+while+Martin+Harris+was+gone+with+the+writings,+I+went+to+visit+my+father’s+family,+at+Manchester."&source=bl&ots=gi69lz8fMu&sig=2-5ON8KCN5f71c2acSIIH3Ent0o&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi1-uCy5NvSAhViwVQKHS2zAAYQ6AEIIDAB#v=onepage&q=""In the meantime while Martin Harris was gone with the writings%2C I went to visit my father’s family%2C at Manchester."&f=false 

Lee Nelson means well with his book, but the problem is that he is using the very late history of the Church edited by B. H. Roberts, in turn based on some of Joseph's dictated recollections in 1838 and following.  One of the readiest indications of his confusion is constant use of the term "Urim and Thummim" for the early period.  Yet none of the early documents (and revelations) use that term.  It is inserted later, beginning in 1833/1835.  The Joseph Smith Papers Project shows this with great clarity.

The plates and interpreters may have been taken and then returned for a short time in 1828, but they are not available in 1829 when Oliver Cowdery is acting as scribe.

[JulieM]

35 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Lee Nelson means well with his book, but the problem is that he is using the very late history of the Church edited by B. H. Roberts, in turn based on some of Joseph's dictated recollections in 1838 and following.  One of the readiest indications of his confusion is constant use of the term "Urim and Thummim" for the early period.  Yet none of the early documents (and revelations) use that term.  It is inserted later, beginning in 1833/1835.  The Joseph Smith Papers Project shows this with great clarity.

The plates and interpreters may have been taken and then returned for a short time in 1828, but they are not available in 1829 when Oliver Cowdery is acting as scribe.

It's also in The Millenial Star in 1842 (History of Joseph Smith):

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=DCEEAAAAQAAJ&pg=RA2-PA102&lpg=RA2-PA102&dq=%22%22In+the+meantime+while+Martin+Harris+was+gone+with+the+writings,+I+went+to+visit+my+father%E2%80%99s+family,+at+Manchester.+I+continued+there+for+a+short+season+and+then+returned+to+my+place+in+Pennsylvania.%22&source=bl&ots=lPKF7CKIC4&sig=jBlBz2L6vaNo1yTuEKkz1UnQZL8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi5lc-b-dvSAhVkwFQKHVWoDIsQ6AEIHTAB#v=onepage&q=%22%22In%20the%20meantime%20while%20Martin%20Harris%20was%20gone%20with%20the%20writings%2C%20I%20went%20to%20visit%20my%20father%E2%80%99s%20family%2C%20at%20Manchester.%20I%20continued%20there%20for%20a%20short%20season%20and%20then%20returned%20to%20my%20place%20in%20Pennsylvania.%22&f=false

 

Do do you believe it's not accurate?  It's very confusing as it does state that Joseph received D&C Section 3 (in the heading) "through the Urim and Thummim.

 

Do you have a reference for them being taken again before 1829 and then not ever returned to Joseph?

Edited March 16, 2017 by JulieM

[clarkgoble]

Again as a help help for everyone, FAIR has up all the references to the U&T or seerstone. You'll note numerous references to the spectacles in the hat in the earliest accounts including the 1829 Martin Harris account. 

Quote

It's very confusing as it does state that Joseph received D&C Section 3 (in the heading) "through the Urim and Thummim.

That was added in the late edition of the D&C. I'm not sure which of the editions that was put in. It's possibly the last one in which case it was written by Bruce R. McConkie but it's possible it was put in during the late 19th century by Pratt. I don't know off the top of my head when that was added but it wasn't in the edition of the Book of Commandments or Doctrine & Covenants before 1844. I should also mention that I should have just looked up in those FAIR quotes as it has the answer to my earlier question about that section. The header information is largely based upon a Times and Seasons 16 May 1842 as part of Joseph's history: (Sorry I can't quite figure out how to change the text where it says "quote")

Quote

Immediately after my return home I was walking out a little distance when behold the former heavenly messenger appeared and handed to me the Urim and Thummim again, (for it had been taken from me in consequence of my having wearied the Lord in asking for the privilege of letting Martin Harris take the writings which he lost by transgression,) and I enquired of the Lord through them and obtained the following revelation....

As I said I think from reasonably early on the seer stones are called Urim & Thummim - by 1835 at least although the use starts in 1833. I think there are very compelling reasons for that usage even if it's ambiguous in the Bible how the Urim & Thummim worked and lots of different theories in the various texts of late antiquity (say 100 BCE onward).

Way back in 1834 Oliver Cowdery calls the specatacles the U&T. "These were days never to be forgotten—to sit under the sound of a voice dictated by the inspiration of heaven, awakened the utmost gratitude of this bosom! Day after day I continued, uninterrupted, to write from his mouth, as he translated, with the Urim and Thummim, or, as the Nephites whould have said, “Interpreters,” the history, or record, called “The book of Mormon.”" 

By the time of the Wentworth Letter era Joseph himself is describing the spectacles as the Urim & Thummim. I think it's a defensible claim myself. Around that time Lucy Smith is calling the breastplate the breastplate of the high priesthood too.

Quote

The plates and interpreters may have been taken and then returned for a short time in 1828, but they are not available in 1829 when Oliver Cowdery is acting as scribe.

That's not necessarily true. Again the sources by Cowdery tend to emphasize the spectacles and never mention the brown seerstone. I think the idea that they were never given back first appears in Mormonism Unvailed in 1833 and may be the source for that idea.

 

 

Edited March 16, 2017 by clarkgoble

[JulieM]

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

The header information is largely based upon a Times and Seasons 16 May 1842 as part of Joseph's history:

As I said I think from reasonably early on the seer stones are called Urim & Thummim - by 1835 at least although the use starts in 1833. 

So, do you believe the reference to the Urim & Thummim in my link above (what was written in 1842), is referring to the interpreters or to the seer stones that belonged to Joseph? (Specifically where it states that they were returned and Joseph used them to receive  D&C 3, then they were taken and returned again and used to receive D&C 10).

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, JulieM said:

It's also in The Millenial Star in 1842 (History of Joseph Smith):

https://books.google.com/books?id=DCEEAAAAQAAJ&pg=RA2-PA102&lpg=RA2-PA102&dq=%22%22In+the+meantime+while+Martin+Harris+was+gone+with+the+writings,+I+went+to+visit+my+father%E2%80%99s+family,+at+Manchester.+I+continued+there+for+a+short+season+and+then+returned+to+my+place+in+Pennsylvania.%22&source=bl&ots=lPKF7CKIC4&sig=jBlBz2L6vaNo1yTuEKkz1UnQZL8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi5lc-b-dvSAhVkwFQKHVWoDIsQ6AEIHTAB#v=onepage&q=%22%22In%20the%20meantime%20while%20Martin%20Harris%20was%20gone%20with%20the%20writings%2C%20I%20went%20to%20visit%20my%20father%E2%80%99s%20family%2C%20at%20Manchester.%20I%20continued%20there%20for%20a%20short%20season%20and%20then%20returned%20to%20my%20place%20in%20Pennsylvania.%22&f=false .

 

Your citation refers to 1828 only, as I had pointed out.  By 1829 and the arrival of Oliver in Harmony, Pennsylvania, the seerstone in the hat is the sole medium employed by Joseph.

8 hours ago, JulieM said:

 

Do do you believe it's not accurate?  It's very confusing as it does state that Joseph received D&C Section 3 (in the heading) "through the Urim and Thummim.

 

Do you have a reference for them being taken again before 1829 and then not ever returned to Joseph?

The originals of all those early revelations and other historical writings (which never refer to the Urim and Thummim) are published online by the LDS Church in its Joseph Smith Papers Project.  Many installments of Joseph Smith's history were published in his lifetime, with his full approval -- even though he did not write all of it, even when it is in the first person.  The common insertion of the phrase "Urim and Thummim" took place beginning no earlier than 1833/1835, when the Book of Commandments was edited to become the Doctrine & Covenants.  By then, Mormons had begun to erroneously assume that it was a good, equivalent term for the Nephite interpreters (spectacles) as well as the seerstone used by Joseph.  They had no idea then of the considerable confusion which that would create.

You can browse the originals of the early revelations at http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/the-papers/revelations-and-translations .

[JulieM]

9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Your citation refers to 1828 only, as I had pointed out.  By 1829 and the arrival of Oliver in Harmony, Pennsylvania, the seerstone in the hat is the sole medium employed by Joseph.

The originals of all those early revelations and other historical writings (which never refer to the Urim and Thummim) are published online by the LDS Church in its Joseph Smith Papers Project.  Many installments of Joseph Smith's history were published in his lifetime, with his full approval -- even though he did not write all of it, even when it is in the first person.  The common insertion of the phrase "Urim and Thummim" took place beginning no earlier than 1833/1835, when the Book of Commandments was edited to become the Doctrine & Covenants.  By then, Mormons had begun to erroneously assume that it was a good, equivalent term for the Nephite interpreters (spectacles) as well as the seerstone used by Joseph.  They had no idea then of the considerable confusion which that would create.

You can browse the originals of the early revelations at http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/the-papers/revelations-and-translations .

Thanks, Robert.  I agree and this matches what I have found with my limited study of this topic too.

But can you address this question as I'm curious how you know the Interpreters were permanently taken back by 1829:

"Do you have a reference for them being taken again before 1829 and then not ever returned to Joseph?"

 

Edited March 17, 2017 by JulieM

[Robert F. Smith]

On 3/17/2017 at 8:54 AM, JulieM said:

Thanks, Robert.  I agree and this matches what I have found with my limited study of this topic too.

But can you address this question as I'm curious how you know the Interpreters were permanently taken back by 1829:

"Do you have a reference for them being taken again before 1829 and then not ever returned to Joseph?"

Sorry to take so long to get back to you on this.  I do not have any sources ready at hand, but have been told that a couple of books are your best bet:

Michael Hubbard MacKay and Gerrit J. Dirkmaat, From Darkness unto Light: Joseph Smith's Translation and Publication of the Book of Mormon (BYU RSC/Deseret Book, 2015).

Michael Hubbard MacKay and Nicholas J. Frederick, Joseph Smith's Seer Stones (BYU RSC/Deseret Book, 2016).

[clarkgoble]

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Sorry to take so long to get back to you on this.  I do not have any sources ready at hand, but have been told that a couple of books are your best bet:

Michael Hubbard MacKay and Gerrit J. Dirkmaat, From Darkness unto Light: Joseph Smith's Translation and Publication of the Book of Mormon (BYU RSC/Deseret Book, 2015).

Michael Hubbard MacKay and Nicholas J. Frederick, Joseph Smith's Seer Stones (BYU RSC/Deseret Book, 2016).

That's not what the MacKay book says. 

Quote

The revelation rebuked Joseph Smith for his misdeed in asking repeatedly to allow Harris to take the manuscript and commanded him to repent before he could resume the translation of the gold plates. The angel announced that because Smith “had sinned in delivering the manuscript into the hands of a wicked man, . . . [he] would of necessity have to suffer the consequences of his indiscretion.”61 As an initial consequence, Smith reported that the plates and spectacles were taken from him twice—once prior to the revelation after asking a third time to let Harris take the manuscript and once afterwards: “After I had obtained [this] revelation, both the plates, and the [spectacles] were taken from me again, but in a few days they were returned to me.”62

Mackay, Michael Hubbard; Dirkmaat, Gerrit J. (2015-06-11). From Darkness Unto Light (Kindle Locations 2312-2319). Religious Studies Center, BYU, Deseret Book Company. Kindle Edition. 

The footnote states

Quote

Joseph Smith, History, vol. A-1, 11. Lucy Mack Smith added a dimension to this account when she wrote that after losing the plates and Urim and Thummim a second time, Joseph “continued [his] supplications to God, without cessation, and . . . had the joy and satisfaction of again receiving the Urim and Thummim.” Lucy also explained that Joseph had told her that the angel “seemed pleased with me when he gave me back the Urim and Thummim, and he told me that the Lord loved me, for my faithfulness and humility.” Lucy Mack Smith, Biographical Sketches, 126. The reminiscent accounts of Joseph and Lucy Mack Smith differed slightly on the details of the events. Joseph, for example, said the Urim and Thummim was returned, along with the plates, “a few days” after he received the July 1828 revelation. See Joseph Smith, History, vol. A-1, 11. Lucy, however, quoted Joseph as saying the Urim and Thummim was returned “on the twenty-second of September [1828].” Lucy Mack Smith, Biographical Sketches, 126. Conversely, Lucy Mack Smith remembered visiting Joseph and Emma in September 1828, at which time Joseph was given the spectacles again by an angel. Whether they were returned in July or October, Emma apparently translated a little more before Joseph went to work on his small farm. Knight Sr., History, 4–5.

Mackay, Michael Hubbard; Dirkmaat, Gerrit J. (2015-06-11). From Darkness Unto Light (Kindle Locations 2514-2523). Religious Studies Center, BYU, Deseret Book Company. Kindle Edition. 

Later it says,

Quote

Shortly after the founding of the Church of Christ in 1830, Joseph Smith apparently stopped using the seer stones as a means of regular revelation. Instead, he dictated them directly to a scribe as they flowed into his own mind.

Mackay, Michael Hubbard; Dirkmaat, Gerrit J. (2015-06-11). From Darkness Unto Light (Kindle Locations 2668-2670). Religious Studies Center, BYU, Deseret Book Company. Kindle Edition. 

The basis for the seer stone in the later period comes from fairly late accounts of Emma and Martin Harris. The book notes

Quote

Still, it is difficult to determine exactly which instrument Joseph was using to translate at any given time while translating with Oliver Cowdery. While Emma and Joseph Knight Sr. later described Joseph using a single stone for the majority of the process, Joseph apparently told Jonathan Hadley in 1829 that the translation was accomplished by using the spectacles buried in the bottom of a hat.30 Regardless, Emma explained that her husband would read the words off the stone and that the scribe would record the words Joseph dictated. She further explained that during that process Joseph would pause and spell out unfamiliar words and “proper names he could not pronounce.”31 David Whitmer, who was at his father’s house when Joseph and Oliver were translating there, described the process by calling the words appearing on the stone the “spiritual light.” He gave a detailed account of the entire translation process: “A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English.

Mackay, Michael Hubbard; Dirkmaat, Gerrit J. (2015-06-11). From Darkness Unto Light (Kindle Locations 2949-2957). Religious Studies Center, BYU, Deseret Book Company. Kindle Edition. 

Quote

It is unknown whether Cowdery saw Joseph using both the spectacles and the individual seer stones, as Emma did. Josiah Jones, for example, an early parishioner of Sidney Rigdon, was baptized by Cowdery and his missionary companions when they passed through Kirtland, Ohio, on their way to proselytize Native Americans west of Missouri. He wrote that “In the last part of October, 1830, four men appeared here . . . with a book, which they said contained what was engraven on gold plates found . . . about three years ago by a man named Joseph Smith Jr. who had translated it by looking into a stone or two stones, when put into a dark place, which stones he said were found in the box with the plates.”35 Charles Anthon was apparently told by Martin Harris that Joseph stopped using the spectacles because they were too big, arguing that they “were so large, that if a person attempted to look through them, his two eyes would have to be turned towards one of the glasses merely, the spectacles in question being altogether too large for the breadth of the human face.”36 Anthon’s account may also explain why Cowdery generally described the translation process as involving the “interpreters” or spectacles, while others stated that the latter part of the translation was done with only a single seer stone. In fact, it is possible that Joseph may have even removed one of the lenses from the spectacles in order to more easily use it. He also may have simply focused upon one of the two lenses while the spectacles lay in the bottom of the hat.37 The earliest account, apparently informed by Joseph Smith, was printed in the Palmyra Freeman in August 1829 by Jonathan Hadley. It simply declared that Joseph placed the spectacles in the hat in order to translate, but this article does not eliminate the possibility that only one part of the spectacles was placed in the hat.38 Jones seemed to think that Joseph used one or two seer stones that were all provided to Joseph with the plates. If he is being clear, he is suggesting that sometimes Joseph used just one of the two seer stones that constituted the Nephite interpreters.

Mackay, Michael Hubbard; Dirkmaat, Gerrit J. (2015-06-11). From Darkness Unto Light (Kindle Locations 2980-2998). Religious Studies Center, BYU, Deseret Book Company. Kindle Edition. 

 

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

That's not what the MacKay book says. 

The footnote states

Later it says,

The basis for the seer stone in the later period comes from fairly late accounts of Emma and Martin Harris. The book notes

Thank you for quoting the sources.  I have seen neither book.  However,  it seems clear to me from the best and  most immediate sources (those closest to Joseph) that the single stone-in-the-hat method was the only method used by Joseph in 1829 when dictating to Oliver.  That still does not answer the question of when the plates and interpreters were permanently taken away, which appears to have been in late 1828,  If Mackay and his colleagues cannot find the evidence pro or con, then perhaps it simply does not now exist.  We must extrapolate from the evidence (or lack of it) which we have.