Should Fawn Brodie's Excommunication be Over Turned?

[JulieM]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If you don't regard Nibley as a hater of women and girls, you should not accuse of him of behavior that, by definition, marks him as a hater of women and girls. 

I've never stated that Nibley is "a hater of women and girls".  I've stated that I respect him.

However, I do wish he hadn't resorted to personal attacks and sexist, misogynistic statements and quotes in his review of Brodie's book.  He's better than that, IMO, and there were ample other methods he could have employed in his writing of a critical review.

[JulieM]

14 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I wonder if Elvis is still alive. I wonder if the NASA lunar landings were faked.

I actually do remember reading somewhere that Nibley was asked to write a review of Brodie's book (don't CFR me...just going from memory here  ).

Has anyone else read that (or am I confusing it with what Clark was posting)?

Edited May 1, 2017 by JulieM

[clarkgoble]

2 hours ago, JulieM said:

I think the one he's referring to that he was ordered to write is this one(?):

Sounding Brass: Informal studies of the lucrative art of telling stories about Brigham Young and Mormons

From what I can tell, the other title (from your post) is a compilation or reprint of several of his books or writings that includes No Ma'am, That's Not History.

Maybe Clark can clarify which one Nibley was referring to, but I would imagine it's the first one.

There is that ambiguity as this was around the time FARMS/Deseret Books had published all those works in a single volume. But I assume he's referring to the actual single volume of Sounding Brass that is one of the sections in the FARMS volume. But I have to admit he may have been referring to the FARMS volume.

To my mind all the works in that collection are his worst stuff. In that interview he says his favorite was Nibley on the Timely and Timeless. But the parts of that were dispersed throughout his collected works. (I don't have a copy to check though) My favorite by his is The Ancient State although I know a lot of people love Brother Brigham Challenges the Saints or Approaching Zion. But while there definitely interesting works in those more political books I also find them most problematic in terms of argument. In particular I think they highlight his blind spots on his relative ignorance of economics and science. I still enjoy both but don't think they hold up as well as some do. Whereas the first half and parts of the second half of The Ancient State still hold up surprisingly well.

Edited May 1, 2017 by clarkgoble

[clarkgoble]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

One can find a task unpleasant due to, say, its subject matter, yet stand by the honesty and propriety with which the task was accomplished.

Again, nothing in NIbley's comments published in this article leads me to conclude that he was in any way embarrassed by the work he accomplished, notwithstanding he did not like having to do it.

That's true, although generally one won't immediately call it the worst book one wrote. Nor say things like "I had to write something" and "I was forced too." Those aren't exactly ringing endorsements of ones propriety but the types of words one uses when trying to explain away something poorly done. Again I recognize judgment of tone is rather subjective. But I think it's pretty hard to say he thought he did a great job.

[clarkgoble]

2 hours ago, JulieM said:

I wonder if he was ordered to write this book as he was ordered to write "Sounding Brass"?  

It's covered in his biography but I've not read that since it came out. My copy is in storage so I can't look it up easily. As I recall though after his Brodie book he got an appointment to BYU. (He was editor at the Improvement Era prior to that I believe) So he probably wasn't ordered to write it but I vaguely recall there being a connection to his being hired. Anyone has the biography to look it up? I confess I didn't like it nearly as much as I expected to and it didn't leave much of an impression on me. (No fault of the author)

[Scott Lloyd]

20 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

That's true, although generally one won't immediately call it the worst book one wrote. Nor say things like "I had to write something" and "I was forced too." Those aren't exactly ringing endorsements of ones propriety but the types of words one uses when trying to explain away something poorly done. Again I recognize judgment of tone is rather subjective. But I think it's pretty hard to say he thought he did a great job.

Presumably he wouldn't in this instance have called it his worst book had the question not been put to him directly asking which of his books was the worst. Obviously, one of his books would have to occupy that position, even if each and every one were superlative. He didn't say it was a terrible book, only that, by comparison, it was the worst of his books. There's a difference.

If I were required to do something I found tedious or unpleasant, I likely wouldn't look very fondly on the product, even if I had done my best and didn't regard the quality of the work as inferior.

 

 

Edited May 1, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Kenngo1969]

3 hours ago, JulieM said:

I think the one he's referring to that he was ordered to write is this one(?):

Sounding Brass: Informal studies of the lucrative art of telling stories about Brigham Young and Mormons

From what I can tell, the other title (from your post) is a compilation or reprint of several of his books or writings that includes No Ma'am, That's Not History.

Maybe Clark can clarify which one Nibley was referring to, but I would imagine it's the first one.

 

OK. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

It's covered in his biography but I've not read that since it came out. My copy is in storage so I can't look it up easily. As I recall though after his Brodie book he got an appointment to BYU. (He was editor at the Improvement Era prior to that I believe) So he probably wasn't ordered to write it but I vaguely recall there being a connection to his being hired. Anyone has the biography to look it up? I confess I didn't like it nearly as much as I expected to and it didn't leave much of an impression on me. (No fault of the author)

I do...as long as it has not been lent out (code word for given away).

[Atheist Mormon]

On 2/1/2017 at 10:44 AM, rongo said:

Heck no! She was an apostate, who sought to damage the Church.

She wasn't excommunicated for accurate historical things that don't portray Joseph Smith/The Church in a good light. She was excommunicated for apostate behavior outside of her book as well.

Have you read Nibley's "No, Ma'am, that's not History?"  It documents things that she purposely misrepresented in her book. She is not a martyr to "rock in a hat before it became well-known."

This view of yours is beyond sad. Not only that Nibley's rebuttal books became a "laughingstock" for it's gross inaccuracies.

[Calm]

How much detail is wanted?  All the Brodie material or just whether he said anything about embarrassment or something similar or Sounding Brass info?

[JulieM]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

How much detail is wanted?  All the Brodie material or just whether he said anything about embarrassment or something similar or Sounding Brass info?

Anything you think would be of interest or applicable to this discussion, but most especially anything regarding why he wrote the review (was it a request or just done on his own, etc,).   Thanks Calm!!

Edited May 1, 2017 by JulieM

[Calm]

One comment, page 225, dictated, leaving obvious errors because of laziness.  Tell me if you need punctuation or exact spelling of anything...

 "A bright and creative women Brody has lost her face married to secular Jew the University of Chicago and written a literate but thoroughly to Mary Jean biography of its founding profit she was excommunicated a few months after it was published among other things her book hypothesize a naturalistic origin for the book of Mormon arguing that it was written by Joseph Smith and reflected the concerns of 19th century America.  With the church administration buildings comprehensive library of anti-Mormon books and his own extensive library, Hugh began to prepare a response to  Brody's charges a volunteer project that he did without assignment or supervision.

 Hugh worked on his Brody review throughout much of the spring titled it no ma'am that's not history a brief review of Mrs. Brody's reluctant vindication of a prophet she seeks to expose and sent the 62 page monograph to bookcraft while he took another excursion into southern Utah when he returned he discovered that the press had printed the review before letting him see the proofs there are a number of bad mistakes wrote Hugh and they toned the thing down a good deal but still it seems to Satisfy.   In fact Hugh discovered more evidence that supported his position on Brody's book after the monograph was printed for instance Brody had made the case that the first vision was a later fabrication of smiths but hugh notes for the past week I have been looking up stuff and the historians office I never dreamed how weak La Brody's case really is for example today I came across an article in the newspaper dated 1832 in which an outsider mentions the first vision as a basic belief in the church from the time of its founding"

[Calm]

Skipping to page 227 after a critique of Nibley's work and his critics' comments:

 "Church leaders for their part were pleased with Hugh's monograph Elder John a widtsoe then senior editor of the improvement era wrote to Howard S McDonald president of Brigham young University urging him to make sure the schools bookstore and library had copies of no ma'am the Brody book has said nothing new to antimormon literature Wrote Widtsoe but published and publicized as it has been it is misleading many people who do not have a background of knowledge sufficient to know what is true or false.   And President David O McKay Road warmly to Hugh your comments disclose clearly not only Brodie's immature prejudiced thinking but also the superficiality of the critics who have referred to her book as scholarly… I congratulate you on your clear exposure of her manifest unfairness her than directive insinuations….You do yourself credit and the church Honor!

 A more balanced response came in a personal letter from Mormon historian Juanita brooks the gently critiqued no man stating I may be wrong I often a.m. but it seems to me that in your zeal to answer Mrs. Brody you make some statements almost as far-fetched as hers."

Brooks says more, skipping.

[clarkgoble]

That's interesting he did it on his own. I vaguely remember the book saying he got his BYU job because of the book. Is my memory accurate there?

[clarkgoble]

35 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

This view of yours is beyond sad. Not only that Nibley's rebuttal books became a "laughingstock" for it's gross inaccuracies.

As I've said it's not one of Nibley's best works by any means. But even if he made some exaggerations and errors, I think many still think key arguments hold up. I don't think anyone still thinks Brodie's book is without error. 

[Calm]

Read to the end of that chapter, don't see anything on Sounding Brass nor is it in the index.  So taking a break.

[JulieM]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Read to the end of that chapter, don't see anything on Sounding Brass nor is it in the index.  So taking a break.

That's all so interesting....thanks, Calm for taking the time to type all of that out!  Makes me want to order the biography for my kindle  

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, JulieM said:

I actually do remember reading somewhere that Nibley was asked to write a review of Brodie's book (don't CFR me...just going from memory here  ).

Has anyone else read that (or am I confusing it with what Clark was posting)?

From Calm's notes:

Quote

Hugh began to prepare a response to  Brody's charges a volunteer project that he did without assignment or supervision.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, JulieM said:

I've never stated that Nibley is "a hater of women and girls".  I've stated that I respect him.

However, I do wish he hadn't resorted to personal attacks and sexist, misogynistic statements and quotes in his review of Brodie's book. 

 You mean like calling her "Mrs. B"? What a cad!

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

That's interesting he did it on his own. I vaguely remember the book saying he got his BYU job because of the book. Is my memory accurate there?

 Hugh's stay at the improvement era is difficult to document since the day he commenced working there is not known nor is it clear how much time Hugh spent on improvement era projects given the amount of time the researching and writing no ma'am would have taken he would have technically worked under elder widtsoe's supervision but is not possible to determine from available documents how close the two men were.  Widtsoe may have determined quickly that Hugh a scholar's scholar was not going to settle down well to the kind of housekeeping chores that make up  much of an editor's life and that he would fit much better into an academic environment in any event on 14 March 1946 only four months after his discharge and possibly only a few weeks after he reached Salt Lake City Widtsoe was writing a letter warmly recommending Hugh for a faculty position at Brigham Young University BYU was then experiencing the same postwar boom and student enrollment that was flooding all of the nations universities ... in his letter to BYU president Howard S McDonald's widtsoe praised Hugh as one of the ablest scholars among us and a good latter-day Saint who remembers his tithing and other obligations among Hugh's academic and linguistic qualifications widtsoe mentioned his mission but not his war experience or who his grandfather was ... there is perhaps A proprietary  note maybe even a touch of patronage, in his description of Hugh.  He is a bookworm of the 1st order will probably annoy his wife when he marries all his life by coming home late at night too late for dinner and by sitting up all night with his books do you not think that BYU  should gather this young scholar into its full he would not be an expensive man but might become a most useful one at the bottom of the letter Widtsoe  scrawled on afterthought I believe we must keep this man for our use McDonald immediately wrote back requesting can hughs address so he could contact him directly when widtsoe replied he stressed you must keep hugh Nibley  near us because of his erudition... he is the type that we find once in a generation 

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, JulieM said:

That's all so interesting....thanks, Calm for taking the time to type all of that out!  Makes me want to order the biography for my kindle  

 Not typing dictating which is why there are so many errors 

[JulieM]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

 Not typing dictating which is why there are so many errors 

Well, either way...thanks for posting it.  I do think I may order the biography now