Who is the Marred Servant?

[Michael Sanders]

Who do you think best fulfills the prophecy of the marred servant and why?

[Duncan]

7 minutes ago, Michael Sanders said:

Who do you think best fulfills the prophecy of the marred servant and why?

is there a reference?

[notHagoth7]

26 minutes ago, Duncan said:

is there a reference?

http://biblehub.com/text/isaiah/52-14.htm

[notHagoth7]

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/isa/52.13-15?lang=eng#12

[Duncan]

I'll say it has dual meaning, Jesus and then Joseph Smith

[Michael Sanders]

This article posits that the "marred servant" is actually the Book of Mormon personified instead of an actual individual.  See "Christ's Interpretation of Isaiah 52's 'My Servant' in 3 Nephi," Gaye Strathern and Jacob Moody, Journal of The Book of Mormon and Other Restoration Scripture 18/1 (2009) pp. 4-15.

Christ alludes to this text while teaching the Nephites during his visitation as recorded in 3 Nephi.

Mike

 

[Duncan]

10 minutes ago, Michael Sanders said:

This article posits that the "marred servant" is actually the Book of Mormon personified instead of an actual individual.  See "Christ's Interpretation of Isaiah 52's 'My Servant' in 3 Nephi," Gaye Strathern and Jacob Moody, Journal of The Book of Mormon and Other Restoration Scripture 18/1 (2009) pp. 4-15.

Christ alludes to this text while teaching the Nephites during his visitation as recorded in 3 Nephi.

Mike

 

if you already knew the answer then why did you ask us?

[Michael Sanders]

Avraham Gileadi understands this latter-day figure as a mortal servant who will serve as a proxy and deliver the covenant people.  Typologically in a role similar to Hezekiah or King David - thus the term "Davidic Servant" or "Davidic King".

A review of his basic premise and his interpretation of Isaiah can be read here and here.

Mike

 

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Michael Sanders said:

Who do you think best fulfills the prophecy of the marred servant and why?

The New Oxford Annotated Bible (NRSV) takes the cruelly disfigured servant in Isa 52:14 to be Israel (which you didn't include in your poll choices).  However, both at Qumran and in the NT we find the figure of the Suffering Servant in Isaiah taken to prefigure the coming Messiah, as accepted now even by Jewish scholars:   Michael Wise, The First Messiah: Investigating the Savior Before Christ (S.F.: HarperSanFrancisco, 1999); Israel Knohl, The Messiah Before Jesus: The Suffering Servant of the Dead Sea Scrolls (Berkeley: U.C. Press, 2000).

 Multiple Old Testament events can prefigure one New Testament practice which is reenacted countless times, e.g., baptism into Moses at the Crossing of the Red Sea prefigures the baptism into Jesus (I Corinthians 10:1-6; esp. v. 6 typoi), baptism of earth during Noah's Flood also prefigures baptism into Jesus (I Peter 3:18-21; esp. v. 21 'antitypos), while Adam prefigured Jesus through contrast (Romans 5:12-15; esp. v. 14 typos).  Multiple types and antitypes are the norm in prophecy.  In fact, typological interpretation of the Old Testament is especially common in Paul, John, and Hebrews.  The Jerusalem Bible provides a note telling us that former events can prefigure "spiritual realities of the messianic age."

As Northrop Frye points out:

Quote

This typological way of reading the Bible is indicated too often and explicitly in the New Testament itself for us to be in any doubt that this is the “right” way of reading it–“right” in the only sense that criticism can recognize, as the way that conforms to the intentionality of the book itself and to the conventions it assumes and requires.

 

[Michael Sanders]

14 minutes ago, Duncan said:

if you already knew the answer then why did you ask us?

I don't know the answer - it has been speculated to be any number of individuals or the Book of Mormon.. I'm interested in eschatological studies and weighing the arguments of who these latter-day figures might be.  The scriptures mention several end time servants who are mighty and strong who participate in last days work of fulfilling the prophecies.  

Zion is to be redeemed by a man like unto Moses according to the scriptures.  Lehi's blessing of little Joseph talks about one who would come of his seed and do a mighty work apparently from Manasseh.  Joseph gave an inspired interpretation of Isaiah 11 who Moroni said was about to come to pass which talks about a servant of Christ on whom is lais much power.  Joseph prophesied about "one mighty and strong" who would do certain things.  Interpretations of who these figures are many - in fact, many have claimed to be them.. Joseph also spoke of one who would come after him named David who would do a great work.. We have the work of the choice seer mentioned in 2 Nephi that refers to Joseph Smith.  

Many believe that Christ is the "one mighty" like unto Moses.  Some think it is a mortal servant in the hands of Christ.  I'm interested in the learned opinions of other about these individuals.

Mike

[Michael Sanders]

Another paper which mentions some of the end-time servants is Two Last-Days Servants for the Remnant of Jacob

Mike

[Michael Sanders]

16 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The New Oxford Annotated Bible (NRSV) takes the cruelly disfigured servant in Isa 52:14 to be Israel (which you didn't include in your poll choices).  However, both at Qumran and in the NT we find the figure of the Suffering Servant in Isaiah taken to prefigure the coming Messiah, as accepted now even by Jewish scholars:   Michael Wise, The First Messiah: Investigating the Savior Before Christ (S.F.: HarperSanFrancisco, 1999); Israel Knohl, The Messiah Before Jesus: The Suffering Servant of the Dead Sea Scrolls (Berkeley: U.C. Press, 2000).

 

Israel - yes good catch, should have been included in my poll.  So in your opinion is it Israel or do we look for another?  I understand that types can have multiple fulfillments and do enjoy exploring typology.  But speculation abounds and trying to place these individuals in history without "looking beyond the mark" can prove difficult.  For example, seeing how Joesph Smith literally fulfilled all the markers and identifiers of the Choice Seer prophecy during his life is truly amazing to behold.  But there are many still looking for the choice seer when his work has been completed.  I'm trying to identify the prophetic markers concerning the various ministries these figures perform, so as to avoid "looking beyond" how Christ literally fulfilled some of these things.

In Zenos's parable ot the olive tree it seems fairly evident to me that the "servant" who co-labors with the lord of the vineyard is Christ.. Other interpret it differently.. Thanks for your thoughts.

Mike

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Michael Sanders said:

Israel - yes good catch, should have been included in my poll.  So in your opinion is it Israel or do we look for another?  I understand that types can have multiple fulfillments and do enjoy exploring typology.  But speculation abounds and trying to place these individuals in history without "looking beyond the mark" can prove difficult.  For example, seeing how Joesph Smith literally fulfilled all the markers and identifiers of the Choice Seer prophecy during his life is truly amazing to behold.  But there are many still looking for the choice seer when his work has been completed.  I'm trying to identify the prophetic markers concerning the various ministries these figures perform, so as to avoid "looking beyond" how Christ literally fulfilled some of these things.

In Zenos's parable ot the olive tree it seems fairly evident to me that the "servant" who co-labors with the lord of the vineyard is Christ.. Other interpret it differently.. Thanks for your thoughts.

Mike

There is an entire range of archetypal patterns fulfilled by prophets down through time.  Grant Hardy and David Bokovoy have been particularly astute in eliciting meaning from a variety of sources along those lines.  I also highly recommend Blake Oster's 1982 FARMS study, "The Throne Theophany and Prophetic Commission in I Nephi," which appeared with an added typological chart in BYU Studies, 26/4 (Winter 1986):67-95.

I would also recommend Joseph Campbell, The Hero With a Thousand Faces, 2nd ed. (1968); and his Masks of God series of volumes.  That can help all of us understand Clifton Jolley's 1979 BYU doctoral dissertation, in which he applies Lord Raglan's classic 15 points of the mythic hero to Joseph Smith, with some startling conclusions.  See Raglan, The Hero: A Study in Tradition, Myth, and Drama (1936/1949/1956); Edgar C. Snow, Jr., “One Face of the Hero: In Search of the Mythological Joseph Smith,” Dialogue, 27/3 (Fall 1994):233-247. 

In addition to all that, there are chronological/calendaric synchronisms in Mormon history with key Jewish festivals, sabbaticals and jubilees (along with liturgical expressions).  Nothing appears to be accidental.

[Michael Sanders]

6 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 Edgar C. Snow, Jr., “One Face of the Hero: In Search of the Mythological Joseph Smith,” Dialogue, 27/3 (Fall 1994):233-247.

Robert,

The hero motif - thanks for the reference, I found it online here.

Mike

[Gray]

The servant represents Israel, if I recall correctly. Of course it often reinterpreted to refer to the Messiah. 

 

ETA, I was late to the party on this

Edited September 28, 2016 by Gray

[Isaiah]

 Data dump deleted and poster banned for multiple violations

[waveslider]

2 hours ago, Isaiah said:

A GREAT prophet is coming very soon.
I believe he will come not from within our church
and will have more power and authority than our church leaders.

What makes you believe that? First for that to happen the Holy Ghost would cease to strive with the church. I haven't seen that. I have had the Holy Spirit bear witness to me that our prophet is God's anointed prophet for the whole world. Do you deny what Christ said?:

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:...."
John 16:13

You seem to be wresting the scriptures, and then getting on a soap box and trying to preach to everyone, resurrecting these long dead threads and preaching a bunch of stuff you don't seem to quite grasp the true meanings of. Perhaps you might want to ask a few questions of us first before assuming we are all lost and fallen. You might actually learn something different than what you are assuming we believe.
 

[The Nehor]

It is me. I still have a scar from being attacked on my mission. Glad I could solve this for you.  

[rodheadlee]

John the Baptist?