bluebell Posted August 30, 2016 Posted August 30, 2016 4 hours ago, sjdawg said: The church takes advantage of plenty of opportunities to get media exposure. Food drives, charity donations, Amish people attending a temple open house. Maybe not every ward activity gets publicized but some do. But when the church does take opportunities to get media exposure, they aren't claiming that they only held the event to give members a chance to visit, right?
Honorentheos Posted September 1, 2016 Posted September 1, 2016 If 10 couples got married at once, it would rightly be called a mass wedding ceremony. 20 people committing suicide together? Mass suicide. 100 people gathering in a mass demonstration by resigning is very much an appropriate use of the word. 1
JAHS Posted September 1, 2016 Author Posted September 1, 2016 8 hours ago, Honorentheos said: If 10 couples got married at once, it would rightly be called a mass wedding ceremony. 20 people committing suicide together? Mass suicide. 100 people gathering in a mass demonstration by resigning is very much an appropriate use of the word. Your key word there is "demonstration". People have been responding to what Jeanne said: "Seriously..they wanted to visit with each other..share stories and talk..and be together. Kind of like conference. A conference without families..or old friends. They had each other and for the life of me I can't understand why you people begrudge them for this." We don't begrudge them for wanting to get together. But that's not only what they were doing.They were demonstrating for the media attention.
Honorentheos Posted September 1, 2016 Posted September 1, 2016 (edited) 54 minutes ago, JAHS said: Your key word there is "demonstration". People have been responding to what Jeanne said: "Seriously..they wanted to visit with each other..share stories and talk..and be together. Kind of like conference. A conference without families..or old friends. They had each other and for the life of me I can't understand why you people begrudge them for this." We don't begrudge them for wanting to get together. But that's not only what they were doing.They were demonstrating for the media attention. The irony is upthread members of the Church took offense to "The Church" being referenced as stand in for individual members and the variety, acknowledged genuine faith and charity among them that gets lost when people stop seeing one another as individuals and all the nuance that includes. Like with your posting, the complaint was about substitution of a narrative they feel is needed to frame something into a context that makes it work in their worldview. The Church as an organization is frankly all the things claimed. It's a patriarchy that imposes beliefs on people that lead to depression, suicide, quality of life and mental health issues...for some people. It's also a communion of a body of saints with one another and with God...for some people. And it's not a qualitative difference there between the people involved. People are just different and have different needs. It's one of the less admirable aspects of Mormonism, really, that it pretends to make room for the variety of human experience because it extends hierarchy into an afterlife system and claims, "See? We don't believe in heaven or hell. Everyone has a place in Mormon beliefs and will be just as exalted and happy as they allow themselves to be! Isn't it great?" No. Not really. Your having segmented your heaven and hell into more than a binary format doesn't make it better. It basically tells people that going to heaven is a competition for the best seats and if they aren't the best of the best something is wrong with them. It's a terrible system, and one that affects people all over the spectrum of Mormon belief. So. Yeah, there's that. Anyway. It was a mass resignation. 100 people probably had 100 reasons for participating. The LDS Church is a lot of things to a lot of people, but it's made up of a lot of individuals with a lot of variety in the motivations for participating/supporting it. Golden rule, JAHS. Or, as Confucius said first, "Do not impose on others what you do not wish for yourself." Edited September 1, 2016 by Honorentheos 2
JAHS Posted September 1, 2016 Author Posted September 1, 2016 6 hours ago, Honorentheos said: Like with your posting, the complaint was about substitution of a narrative they feel is needed to frame something into a context that makes it work in their worldview. Trying to relate what you said to my post. They can substitute anything they want, but Jeanne was saying all they wanted to do is meet together for support, when in fact they also had an agenda to make a protest out of it in front of the media to make the church look as bad as they possibly could. It's not a matter of the church imposing things on other people. It is a religion, with commandments, doctrines, church meetings, responsibilities, etc. that we believe God has imposed on us for our good. We have not "segmented our heaven and hell into more than a binary format." God did that. If people agree to be a part of that religion they have to follow those doctrines and teachings and leadership and understand that God is in charge; otherwise they should not join or continue to be members. And that's fine. But God will not allow His church to change doctrines to fit everyone's differences. He will not allow the church to be "tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men" (Eph 4:14). At the same time we are encouraged to love and serve everyone, but not at the expense of what we believe are eternal God-given truths. 1
Avatar4321 Posted September 2, 2016 Posted September 2, 2016 On 8/29/2016 at 10:37 AM, bluebell said: I definitely could have missed where it was mentioned in the article. How many resignations were done? were any done?
Honorentheos Posted September 2, 2016 Posted September 2, 2016 6 hours ago, JAHS said: It's not a matter of the church imposing things on other people. It is a religion, with commandments, doctrines, church meetings, responsibilities, etc. that we believe God has imposed on us for our good. We have not "segmented our heaven and hell into more than a binary format." God did that. If people agree to be a part of that religion they have to follow those doctrines and teachings and leadership and understand that God is in charge; otherwise they should not join or continue to be members. And that's fine. But God will not allow His church to change doctrines to fit everyone's differences. He will not allow the church to be "tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men" (Eph 4:14). At the same time we are encouraged to love and serve everyone, but not at the expense of what we believe are eternal God-given truths. I find these kind of arguments to be signs of personal ethical anemia. No person can be responsible for how they feel because it's God's own decree they are at odds with, right? Therefore, no personal demand to examine it closely, to ask why people may honestly feel that way and find it to be justifiable. This same sentiment will turn around and excuse behaviours which many a critic has pointed out in the leadership, say Joseph's treatment of Emma when it came to God's decree regarding polygamy. It's God's will, people are to bend to it. Such is how terrible things are seeded and bloom into the full, rank, flower that leads to more of the same. It's not God's truth you defend. It's something much more base than this. It's worthy of fleeing.
JAHS Posted September 2, 2016 Author Posted September 2, 2016 39 minutes ago, Honorentheos said: I find these kind of arguments to be signs of personal ethical anemia. No person can be responsible for how they feel because it's God's own decree they are at odds with, right? Therefore, no personal demand to examine it closely, to ask why people may honestly feel that way and find it to be justifiable. This same sentiment will turn around and excuse behaviours which many a critic has pointed out in the leadership, say Joseph's treatment of Emma when it came to God's decree regarding polygamy. It's God's will, people are to bend to it. Such is how terrible things are seeded and bloom into the full, rank, flower that leads to more of the same. It's not God's truth you defend. It's something much more base than this. It's worthy of fleeing. It's not an argument it is simply the truth as we believe it. No one else has to believe it if they don't want to be a member of the church. You lucky guy ;-)
Honorentheos Posted September 2, 2016 Posted September 2, 2016 If only it were so simple for people raised a particular way to disengage. But yes. I do feel fortunate.
JAHS Posted September 2, 2016 Author Posted September 2, 2016 33 minutes ago, Honorentheos said: If only it were so simple for people raised a particular way to disengage. But yes. I do feel fortunate. As do I.
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