Elder Holland Declares GoE in Missouri, Noah's Flood Covered the Whole Planet, Pangea separated after Noah's flood, Jaredites first to Populate the New World

[bcuzbcuz]

58 minutes ago, Teancum said:

So what use is are prophets,seers and revelators if they simply have some good ideas and some not so goo like all of us do?  

You said it

[thesometimesaint]

The answer is to ask God, or in this case https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+4%3A11-16&version=KJV

The LDS don't expect the infallibility of any mortal. Nor do we demand it. All we do claim is sometimes God does choose to speak, and that sometimes it is us.

[Teancum]

3 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

The answer is to ask God, or in this case https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+4%3A11-16&version=KJV

The LDS don't expect the infallibility of any mortal. Nor do we demand it. All we do claim is sometimes God does choose to speak, and that sometimes it is us.

Yet we are constantly told:. 

Follow the brethren and you won't go astray

the prophet can't lead the church astray or God will take that prophet out

if you follow the prophet and he is telling you something that is incorrect you will still be blessed for following it

it is not acceptable to criticize top church leaders 

 

to me this is a double standard, double speak, talking out of both sides of their mouth.  We are told to follow but then when prior prophets and apostles mess up well they just were expressing their opinions.

just ask God. So what if God tells me what the LDS leaders are saying is wrong?  What then?

 

[waveslider]

9 hours ago, Teancum said:

So what if God tells me what the LDS leaders are saying is wrong?  What then?

Then you can know one of two things, that those leaders are indeed wrong, or that your answer isn't coming from God. This is the very reason why we need to be praying always so that we don't fall into temptations, so that we can keep the commandments and ask for forgiveness, so that we can be in tune with God and know that our answers are indeed from God:

"5  If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6  But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7  For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8  A double minded man is unstable in all his ways."
James 1:5-8

[thesometimesaint]

18 hours ago, Teancum said:

Yet we are constantly told:. 

Follow the brethren and you won't go astray

the prophet can't lead the church astray or God will take that prophet out

if you follow the prophet and he is telling you something that is incorrect you will still be blessed for following it

it is not acceptable to criticize top church leaders 

 

to me this is a double standard, double speak, talking out of both sides of their mouth.  We are told to follow but then when prior prophets and apostles mess up well they just were expressing their opinions.

just ask God. So what if God tells me what the LDS leaders are saying is wrong?  What then?

 

Do you really expect the Church to say to it members "Don't flow your leaders"? Is it a good idea to disregard traffic lights?

[california boy]

19 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Do you really expect the Church to say to it members "Don't flow your leaders"? Is it a good idea to disregard traffic lights?

I think it would be a good idea if the brotheren said 'We think" rather than "We have received a revelation from God" when they are giving guidance.  Not baptizing the children of gay couples is a good example. I and many others highly doubt that church leaders had a revelation from God that those children should be denied baptism by the church because of the sins of their parents. Is this really an eternal principle of the gospel of Christ?  Or is this just a policy decision that church leaders agree on at this time?  

When an apostle claims something to be a revelation from God then he better be damn right about that. If not and that policy changes in a few years then what are members suppose to believe about God revealing eternal truths of the gospel through His prophets?  Is there not a huge difference between everyone agreeing on something, and something being a revelation from God?  Yet the church seems to not draw any difference and in doing so, cause church members to put their faith in decisions made by men and not revelation from God. 

Lets play this out a little to see the difference. If, for example Brigham Young had stated that he didn't think blacks should hold the priesthood at this time, then the church would have had a policy in place that might change when another leader thought that policy was wrong.  But by declaring that it is a revelation from God then no man or prophet has the right to change that revelation, only God does.  And members would have every right to disagree with the opinion of Brigham Young. 

Has God given a revelation that gay marriage is a sin and apostasy?  Or is that just the united opinion of the church leaders at this time?   I will leave that for others to decide. 

Edited August 21, 2016 by california boy

[thesometimesaint]

34 minutes ago, california boy said:

I think it would be a good idea if the brotheren said 'We think" rather than "We have received a revelation from God" when they are giving guidance.  Not baptizing the children of gay couples is a good example. I and many others highly doubt that church leaders had a revelation from God that those children should be denied baptism by the church because of the sins of their parents. Is this really an eternal principle of the gospel of Christ?  Or is this just a policy decision that church leaders agree on at this time?  

When an apostle claims something to be a revelation from God then he better be damn right about that. If not and that policy changes in a few years then what are members suppose to believe about God revealing eternal truths of the gospel through His prophets?  Is there not a huge difference between everyone agreeing on something, and something being a revelation from God?  Yet the church seems to not draw any difference and in doing so, cause church members to put their faith in decisions made by men and not revelation from God. 

Lets play this out a little to see the difference. If, for example Brigham Young had stated that he didn't think blacks should hold the priesthood at this time, then the church would have had a policy in place that might change when another leader thought that policy was wrong.  But by declaring that it is a revelation from God then no man or prophet has the right to change that revelation, only God does.  And members would have every right to disagree with the opinion of Brigham Young. 

Has God given a revelation that gay marriage is a sin and apostasy?  Or is that just the united opinion of the church leaders at this time?   I will leave that for others to decide. 

It has nothing to do with sin. Minor children, at least in the US are under the near total control by their parents.

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said:

Do you really expect the Church to say to it members "Don't flow your leaders"? Is it a good idea to disregard traffic lights?

There is a difference between saying follow and saying follow and even if what they tell you is wrong and you will be blessed for it....but don't worry they won't tell you anything that is wrong, that they are above criticism or reproach and so on.   Then the apologist says so much of what they don't like is just their opinion. 

The priesthood essay on LDS.org is a fine example of tossing years upon years of teachings by more than a few LDS leaders being tossed under the bus.

So your answer really does not address my points. 

[california boy]

1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said:

It has nothing to do with sin. Minor children, at least in the US are under the near total control by their parents.

All minor children are under near control of their parents.  What does that have to do with it if the parents of that child give permission for them to be baptized just like every other minor child on the earth.  So what does that have to do with it?

Certainly the children are not committing any sin or doing anything that would prevent them from being baptized.  The only thing different from the children of gay parents and any other minor is the church belief that those gay parents are sinning because they are in a same sex relationship.  So yeah, it IS all about the sins of the parents.

Edited August 21, 2016 by california boy

[bcuzbcuz]

10 hours ago, waveslider said:

Then you can know one of two things, that those leaders are indeed wrong, or that your answer isn't coming from God. 

God tells you that what the LDS leaders are saying is wrong.

Option A: Those leaders are indeed wrong (which they can't be)

Option B: Your answer isn't coming from God (which is one of the possibilities)

Seems quite straight forward. Always choose option B. 

Or

[waveslider]

1 hour ago, bcuzbcuz said:

God tells you that what the LDS leaders are saying is wrong.

Option A: Those leaders are indeed wrong (which they can't be)

Option B: Your answer isn't coming from God (which is one of the possibilities)

Seems quite straight forward. Always choose option B. 

Or

So there aren't any misunderstandings I was addressing this:

22 hours ago, Teancum said:

So what if God tells me what the LDS leaders are saying is wrong?  What then?

But yeah, if indeed the church is true and the LDS leaders are being led by revelation, then B is the only option. It wouldn't be the first time, for instance Sherem even admitted it when he was facing death:

"18  And he spake plainly unto them, that he had been deceived by the power of the devil. And he spake of hell, and of eternity, and of eternal punishment.
19  And he said: I fear lest I have committed the unpardonable sin, for I have lied unto God; for I denied the Christ, and said that I believed the scriptures; and they truly testify of him. And because I have thus lied unto God I greatly fear lest my case shall be awful; but I confess unto God.
20  And it came to pass that when he had said these words he could say no more, and he gave up the ghost."
Jacob 7:18-20

[waveslider]

4 hours ago, california boy said:

I think it would be a good idea if the brotheren said 'We think" rather than "We have received a revelation from God" when they are giving guidance.  Not baptizing the children of gay couples is a good example. I and many others highly doubt that church leaders had a revelation from God that those children should be denied baptism by the church because of the sins of their parents. Is this really an eternal principle of the gospel of Christ?  Or is this just a policy decision that church leaders agree on at this time?  

It looks like you know what you should be fasting and praying about, so that you can know, fully assured, the answers to these questions. Then at least you won't have to say, "I think," rather than, "I received an answer through revelation." James 1:5 applies just as much to you as it did to Joseph Smith.

[california boy]

7 hours ago, waveslider said:

It looks like you know what you should be fasting and praying about, so that you can know, fully assured, the answers to these questions. Then at least you won't have to say, "I think," rather than, "I received an answer through revelation." James 1:5 applies just as much to you as it did to Joseph Smith.

Too many people claim they have received an answer through revelation already.  I have heard people on both sides of this issue make the same claim.  Evidently saying you received a revelation from God is not that difficult.  Actually receiving one seems to be a bit more illusive.

[waveslider]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

Too many people claim they have received an answer through revelation already.  I have heard people on both sides of this issue make the same claim.  Evidently saying you received a revelation from God is not that difficult.  Actually receiving one seems to be a bit more illusive.

I agree making a claim is a lot easier than actually receiving revelation, never the less receiving revelation isn't that hard to do. You just have to try your best to be sincerely seeking an answer any way God chooses to answer, as opposed to a preconceived notion of the way you expect that answer to come. Sincerity goes a long way with God. Patience and open mindedness, along with a pureness of intention makes things a lot less illusive and it soon becomes very tangible. What does anyone have to lose, besides perhaps their pride if they have to rethink their views in light of revealed truth, by simply trying to live to the best of their ability to be in tune with God, reading His scriptures, pondering and praying? I find that many of my answers come in very different ways than the previous ones. Perhaps that is God's way of keeping me humble, in not presuming I already know the will of God. It also seems to reveal a little bit of His personality to me as well. The main common theme to all my answers are the extreme amounts of love I feel from Him, It just blows me away every time.

[thesometimesaint]

14 hours ago, california boy said:

Too many people claim they have received an answer through revelation already.  I have heard people on both sides of this issue make the same claim.  Evidently saying you received a revelation from God is not that difficult.  Actually receiving one seems to be a bit more illusive.

I can receive revelation only for myself and my family. For the Church not so much.

[Teancum]

12 hours ago, waveslider said:

I agree making a claim is a lot easier than actually receiving revelation, never the less receiving revelation isn't that hard to do. You just have to try your best to be sincerely seeking an answer any way God chooses to answer, as opposed to a preconceived notion of the way you expect that answer to come. Sincerity goes a long way with God. Patience and open mindedness, along with a pureness of intention makes things a lot less illusive and it soon becomes very tangible. What does anyone have to lose, besides perhaps their pride if they have to rethink their views in light of revealed truth, by simply trying to live to the best of their ability to be in tune with God, reading His scriptures, pondering and praying? I find that many of my answers come in very different ways than the previous ones. Perhaps that is God's way of keeping me humble, in not presuming I already know the will of God. It also seems to reveal a little bit of His personality to me as well. The main common theme to all my answers are the extreme amounts of love I feel from Him, It just blows me away every time.

And how do you know whether this is God really speaking to you or this is just a self generated emotional and mental response. 

See this is the problem.  Lots of people think God tells them all sorts of things that just ain't so. 

When I was a bishop it amazed me how many people thought God was telling them something that clearly was wrong and simply their own mental confirmation bias. I think most humans are subject to this. 

[bcuzbcuz]

12 hours ago, waveslider said:

I agree making a claim is a lot easier than actually receiving revelation, never the less receiving revelation isn't that hard to do. You just have to try your best to be sincerely seeking an answer any way God chooses to answer, as opposed to a preconceived notion of the way you expect that answer to come. Sincerity goes a long way with God. Patience and open mindedness, along with a pureness of intention makes things a lot less illusive and it soon becomes very tangible. What does anyone have to lose, besides perhaps their pride if they have to rethink their views in light of revealed truth, by simply trying to live to the best of their ability to be in tune with God, reading His scriptures, pondering and praying? I find that many of my answers come in very different ways than the previous ones. Perhaps that is God's way of keeping me humble, in not presuming I already know the will of God. It also seems to reveal a little bit of His personality to me as well. The main common theme to all my answers are the extreme amounts of love I feel from Him, It just blows me away every time.

I've seen sincerity, openmindedness, humility, patience, pureness of intent, devotion, steadfastness, prayerfulness, scriptural study and heartfulness amongst devoted, In Italy, Egypt, Tunisia, Thailand, Bali and Morocco. With none of them being Mormon, but Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist, and Hinduist instead. Are they all equally qualified to receive inspiration and revelation from God?

[thesometimesaint]

25 minutes ago, Teancum said:

And how do you know whether this is God really speaking to you or this is just a self generated emotional and mental response. 

See this is the problem.  Lots of people think God tells them all sorts of things that just ain't so. 

When I was a bishop it amazed me how many people thought God was telling them something that clearly was wrong and simply their own mental confirmation bias. I think most humans are subject to this. 

All humans are subject to it. So how do we tell if it is nothing more than our own self delusion? Ultimately, in this life, it is the level of correspondence between what we say we believe and what we do.

[thesometimesaint]

24 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

I've seen sincerity, openmindedness, humility, patience, pureness of intent, devotion, steadfastness, prayerfulness, scriptural study and heartfulness amongst devoted, In Italy, Egypt, Tunisia, Thailand, Bali and Morocco. With none of them being Mormon, but Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist, and Hinduist instead. Are they all equally qualified to receive inspiration and revelation from God?

Yes.

[waveslider]

13 hours ago, Teancum said:

And how do you know whether this is God really speaking to you or this is just a self generated emotional and mental response. 

See this is the problem.  Lots of people think God tells them all sorts of things that just ain't so. 

When I was a bishop it amazed me how many people thought God was telling them something that clearly was wrong and simply their own mental confirmation bias. I think most humans are subject to this. 

How do you know that it is really you who are writing these things on this board? How do you know that there are actually people like myself who actually write back? How do you know that you aren't just sleeping and dreaming all of this right now? Come on brother..... This is just a cop out, for you to be able to just write it off as crazy in order to appease your own guilty conscience. I'm sorry you don't know what it is like to actually be loved so very deeply. If you had experienced that love you wouldn't even need to ask that question. Do you honestly believe that something like this can't happen to someone like me?, or you? or any other child of God? Just because most people, in your opinion, are subject to self delusion?

Perhaps the people, who are deceived into thinking their own mental bias is God's voice, just haven't learned to refine their sensitivity to the Actual Holy Ghost yet. After all, healthy people, who have received the Holy Ghost, have three voices in their heads; Their own inner voice (ego), the adversary's voice tempting us, and the Holy Ghost's telling us what God says. A loving nudge in the direction of teaching those people how to have better discernment, would have helped your ward members, who were clearly wrong in what they thought God was saying to them. It would be better than just bringing them up, as an example of how no one can receive an answer from God. As a bishop it should be understood that everyone, including church leaders, are at their own level of righteousness. That means that people are going to have funny ideas as to what the truth is, before they learn more, one step at a time. You must know on some level that it doesn't reflect all peoples' disposition, so why bring it up as if it does?

[waveslider]

16 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

I can receive revelation only for myself and my family. For the Church not so much.

True, but you can also receive revelation for the church, after it has already been received and given out by the prophet. It is how you can actually know that what those church leaders have said is actual revelation, or just some rationalized assumption they are presuming should be. I think if you are truly trying to just obey God as much as you can, and have given all your free agency over into the sole purpose of building of His kingdom, His way, according to His plan, a lot will be revealed to you. If you instead chose your own plan, then you are not following His plan, because His plan is different than what you personally want, unless you truly only want His plan and no other. With His plan he will guide you by His Spirit, which means revelation.

[waveslider]

14 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

I've seen sincerity, openmindedness, humility, patience, pureness of intent, devotion, steadfastness, prayerfulness, scriptural study and heartfulness amongst devoted, In Italy, Egypt, Tunisia, Thailand, Bali and Morocco. With none of them being Mormon, but Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist, and Hinduist instead. Are they all equally qualified to receive inspiration and revelation from God?

Yes, this is what the gospel message is about. We can all be guided back to our Heavenly Father, through Jesus Christ, the Savior. We all start out with the light of Christ, in the form of a conscience. Obedience to that will lead you closer to Heavenly Father, one step at a time. If that journey takes you through other religions and places, then so be it, but it all ends up in the same place..... Standing before Christ himself, In his role as Mediator, to either take you into Father's presence or not.... His choice, and His judgement, along with your own self judgement, in a way that it is impossible to hide anything from Him so you will know that judgement is perfectly just and merciful at the same time.

[Atheist Mormon]

On 8/7/2016 at 7:11 PM, rodheadlee said:

What is this, beat up on Elder Holland week? You had to go back 40 years for a quote.

Even then the scientific facts were hard to ignore.

[thesometimesaint]

5 hours ago, waveslider said:

True, but you can also receive revelation for the church, after it has already been received and given out by the prophet. It is how you can actually know that what those church leaders have said is actual revelation, or just some rationalized assumption they are presuming should be. I think if you are truly trying to just obey God as much as you can, and have given all your free agency over into the sole purpose of building of His kingdom, His way, according to His plan, a lot will be revealed to you. If you instead chose your own plan, then you are not following His plan, because His plan is different than what you personally want, unless you truly only want His plan and no other. With His plan he will guide you by His Spirit, which means revelation.

I've accepted every Revelation published by the Church so far, and expect to do so for the rest of my life. What I'm not too sure about is how or if anything will be published on paper in the next one. What I'm under no strictures is to accept every word spoken by any mortal man, no matter their position or status in the Church that I love.

Edited August 23, 2016 by thesometimesaint

[waveslider]

2 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

I've accepted every Revelation published by the Church so far, and expect to do so for the rest of my life. What I'm not too sure about is how or if anything will be published on paper in the next one. What I'm under no strictures is to accept every word spoken by any mortal man, no matter their position or status in the Church that I love.

Does it matter if a revelation is published on paper or not? Yes, I agree we shouldn't have to accept every word spoken by any mortal man. We don't have to be running blind though, since we have the guidance of the Holy Ghost at our disposal. The gift of discernment can be had through that guidance.