drums12 Posted July 27, 2016 Posted July 27, 2016 20 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: You're fine, I wasn't taking this as an attack towards me, thanks for the apology, but its not needed. It just frustrates me when ancestors of mine donated documents to the church for safe keeping and then the church won't let people access them. No wonder Leonard Arrington intentionally didn't donate his journals to the church. I just want transparency and openness for our community, I think we have a right to it. I agree with you completely. I think the JSP project are a big step in the right direction, but change is always slow. On the other hand, it could be worse. Look how long it took the Roman Catholic Church to apologize to Galileo, etc.
hope_for_things Posted July 27, 2016 Posted July 27, 2016 Just now, drums12 said: I agree with you completely. I think the JSP project are a big step in the right direction, but change is always slow. On the other hand, it could be worse. Look how long it took the Roman Catholic Church to apologize to Galileo, etc. Yikes, you're right about Galileo. But the LDS church might hold out longer since the word apologize isn't found anywhere in the scriptures. 1
Nevo Posted July 27, 2016 Posted July 27, 2016 1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said: He told me "Oh we have already found things that many in the church would find difficult and we do plan on including it in the project." Surprised, I asked if he could give me some clue to what he was referring to. He responded by telling me that most member's have no idea how much Joseph loved his Whiskey. Then he quoted a passage he had just read from one of the papers where Joseph wrote "Whiskey whiskey, whiskey what will I ever do without my whiskey." Seems legit.
drums12 Posted July 27, 2016 Posted July 27, 2016 (edited) 31 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Yikes, you're right about Galileo. But the LDS church might hold out longer since the word apologize isn't found anywhere in the scriptures. The word "apologize" might not be, but there are plenty of scriptures that are referring to the same idea of making amends and asking forgiveness. By the way, if you ever have a chance to watch "Nobody Knows, the Untold Story of Black Mormons," I highly recommend it. Darius Gray was the producer I believe, and it's excellent. One of the people interviewed is Pastor Chip Murray of the AME Church. He relates meeting with President Hinckley, sometime around 2005 or 2006 I think. President Hinckley apologized for the harm the Priesthood Ban had done, and Pastor Murray was very appreciative and gracious. Edited July 27, 2016 by drums12
hope_for_things Posted July 27, 2016 Posted July 27, 2016 12 minutes ago, drums12 said: The word "apologize" might not be, but there are plenty of scriptures that are referring to the same idea of making amends and asking forgiveness. By the way, if you ever have a chance to watch "Nobody Knows, the Untold Story of Black Mormons," I highly recommend it. Darius Gray was the producer I believe, and it's excellent. One of the people interviewed is Pastor Chip Murray of the AME Church. He relates meeting with President Hinckley, sometime around 2005 or 2006 I think. President Hinckley apologized for the harm the Priesthood Ban had done, and Pastor Murray was very appreciative and gracious. Cool, thanks for the tip, I will find that video and check it out. I was joking about the word apologize because Elder Oaks made that statement that the word isn't found in the scriptures at a news conference last year. The scriptures are pretty clear about making amends, I totally agree with you. Many people found it funny that Oaks would make that claim. http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/2122123-155/no-apology-really-mormons-question-apostle
ALarson Posted July 27, 2016 Posted July 27, 2016 17 minutes ago, Nevo said: Seems legit. Nevo (or anyone), Do you know who the "16 Mormon historians" were that are mentioned in this quote below (or if these volumes were actually contracted to be written?): Quote "In 1975 it did appear that the church was making a move to get an honest history. The church historian, Leonard Arrington was appointed to oversee the production of a sixteen-volume sesquicentennial history of the Mormon Church. These volumes were to be authored by prominent Mormon scholars. Contracts were signed by 16 Mormon historians and publication was scheduled for the 150th anniversary of the church (1980). Unfortunately, however, the church leaders decided not to publish the history when they found that the scholars were telling too much of the truth. Since they had binding contracts with the authors, they were forced to pay those who had completed their volumes $20,000. That the General Authorities would approve this immense project and then abort it after some of the church's top scholars spent years working on it shows a total lack of inspiration and a desire to suppress the truth." http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no63.htm
Tacenda Posted July 27, 2016 Posted July 27, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, hope_for_things said: Help me understand your comment here better, because I think that leaders of the church may be hiding documents precisely because they do believe the church is true, and they justify this behavior out of loyalty to the church. But truth shouldn't be hidden in the case of when members devote their time, talents and money to an institution. Like any contract, everything should be in writing before we sign the dotted line. I didn't have this when I became a member, nor when I became endowed. I had no idea about most of it, apparently. Just the version the church wanted me to know. Edited July 27, 2016 by Tacenda 1
hope_for_things Posted July 27, 2016 Posted July 27, 2016 31 minutes ago, Tacenda said: But truth shouldn't be hidden in the case of when members devote their time, talents and money to an institution. Like any contract, everything should be in writing before we sign the dotted line. I didn't have this when I became a member, nor when I became endowed. I had no idea about most of it, apparently. Just the version the church wanted me to know. Yes, I agree with you about how the church should be more transparent. I haven't thought of this from the convert's perspective, but I can see how this is frustrating from that angle as well.
Nevo Posted July 27, 2016 Posted July 27, 2016 (edited) 9 hours ago, ALarson said: Nevo (or anyone), Do you know who the "16 Mormon historians" were that are mentioned in this quote below (or if these volumes were actually contracted to be written?): Arrington lists them in his memoir: Richard L. Bushman (New York) Milton V. Backman (Ohio) Max Parkin (Missouri) T. Edgar Lyon (Illinois) Reed C. Durham, Jr. (Crossing the Plains) Eugene E. Campbell (Early Pioneer Period) Charles S. Peterson (Later Pioneer Period) Thomas G. Alexander (Early 20th Century) Richard O. Cowan (Mid-20th Century) James B. Allen (Contemporary Church) Douglas F. Tobler (Church in Europe) R. Lanier Britsch (Church in Asia and Pacific) F. LaMond Tullis (Church in Mexico, Central and South America) S. George Ellsworth (Expansion of the Church) Davis Bitton (Social and Cultural History, 1830–1900) John L. Sorenson (Social and Cultural History, 1901–1972) The histories by Bushman, Backman, Campbell, Alexander, Cowan, Britsch, and Tullis were published in the 1980s. Lyon's volume was taken over by Glen Leonard, who published Nauvoo: A Place of Peace, a People of Promise in 2002. I don't recall what Arrington said about the contracts, but I'll check it when I get home. Add-on: Here's Arrington's description: "Only later did we learn that Durham and Hinckley had secretly decided in April 1978 not to go ahead with [the] sesquicentennial history, even though it had been authorized by the First Presidency. At Hinckley's direction, the church's attorneys were requested to determine the legal status of the contracts with the authors. Wilford Kirton sent a long legal opinion to Hinckley stating that the church could not avoid publication of the volumes even if the various authors did not turn in their manuscripts on time. . . . With this opinion, privately related to us, we continued to push the project exactly as before. Five manuscripts came in by 1979: Richard Bushman's, Milton Backman's, Thomas Alexander's, Richard Cowan's, and LaMond Tullis's. These were read by Jim Allen, Davis Bitton, Maureen Ursenbach Beecher, and me. Copies were then given to Durham, who, after his reading, took them to the members of the First Presidency for reading by a person they designated. When it became clear that all of the manuscripts would not be finished by 1980, let alone published, the concept of a sixteen-volume set was abandoned by Deseret Book as not realistic. With the build-up of antagonism among the Twelve and the new direction launched by Durham, Hinckley and Durham finally decided to abandon the project as a church-sponsored enterprise and allow each author to find his own publisher. Deseret Book paid each author for the work he had done on the project, and most of them parted with good feelings. Since I was the editor without a stipulated compensation, though I expected a share of the royalties, I was not reimbursed. But I regarded my editorship as part of my job as church historian and did not make it an issue" (Leonard J. Arrington, Adventures of a Church Historian [Urbana and Chicago: University of Illinois Press, 1998], 166–167). Edited July 28, 2016 by Nevo 1
jkwilliams Posted July 27, 2016 Author Posted July 27, 2016 1 minute ago, Nevo said: Arrington lists them in his memoir: Richard L. Bushman (New York) Milton V. Backman (Ohio) Max Parkin (Missouri) T. Edgar Lyon (Illinois) Reed C. Durham, Jr. (Crossing the Plains) Eugene E. Campbell (Early Pioneer Period) Charles S. Peterson (Later Pioneer Period) Thomas G. Alexander (Early 20th Century) Richard O. Cowan (Mid-20th Century) James B. Allen (Contemporary Church) Douglas F. Tobler (Church in Europe) R. Lanier Britsch (Church in Asia and Pacific) F. LaMond Tullis (Church in Mexico, Central and South America) S. George Ellsworth (Expansion of the Church) Davis Bitton (Social and Cultural History, 1830–1900) John L. Sorenson (Social and Cultural History, 1901–1972) The histories by Bushman, Backman, Campbell, Alexander, Cowan, Britsch, and Tullis were published in the 1980s. Lyon's volume was taken over by Glen Leonard, who published Nauvoo: A Place of Peace, a People of Promise in 2002. I don't recall what Arrington said about the contracts, but I'll check it when I get home. A real missed opportunity, IMO.
ALarson Posted July 27, 2016 Posted July 27, 2016 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Nevo said: Arrington lists them in his memoir: Richard L. Bushman (New York) Milton V. Backman (Ohio) Max Parkin (Missouri) T. Edgar Lyon (Illinois) Reed C. Durham, Jr. (Crossing the Plains) Eugene E. Campbell (Early Pioneer Period) Charles S. Peterson (Later Pioneer Period) Thomas G. Alexander (Early 20th Century) Richard O. Cowan (Mid-20th Century) James B. Allen (Contemporary Church) Douglas F. Tobler (Church in Europe) R. Lanier Britsch (Church in Asia and Pacific) F. LaMond Tullis (Church in Mexico, Central and South America) S. George Ellsworth (Expansion of the Church) Davis Bitton (Social and Cultural History, 1830–1900) John L. Sorenson (Social and Cultural History, 1901–1972) The histories by Bushman, Backman, Campbell, Alexander, Cowan, Britsch, and Tullis were published in the 1980s. Lyon's volume was taken over by Glen Leonard, who published Nauvoo: A Place of Peace, a People of Promise in 2002. I don't recall what Arrington said about the contracts, but I'll check it when I get home. Thanks, Nevo! I figured you'd know So half of them were published. I wonder if the others will eventually be published? Have you read the released volumes and were they published unedited, do you know? . Edited July 27, 2016 by ALarson
ALarson Posted July 27, 2016 Posted July 27, 2016 15 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: A real missed opportunity, IMO. Yes, and a lot of money spent on unpublished volumes! I do hope they will eventually be published unedited as written as I'd love to read them I am going to look up the ones that Nevo mentioned and see where I can purchase them.
Tacenda Posted July 27, 2016 Posted July 27, 2016 4 hours ago, Nevo said: Arrington lists them in his memoir: Richard L. Bushman (New York) Milton V. Backman (Ohio) Max Parkin (Missouri) T. Edgar Lyon (Illinois) Reed C. Durham, Jr. (Crossing the Plains) Eugene E. Campbell (Early Pioneer Period) Charles S. Peterson (Later Pioneer Period) Thomas G. Alexander (Early 20th Century) Richard O. Cowan (Mid-20th Century) James B. Allen (Contemporary Church) Douglas F. Tobler (Church in Europe) R. Lanier Britsch (Church in Asia and Pacific) F. LaMond Tullis (Church in Mexico, Central and South America) S. George Ellsworth (Expansion of the Church) Davis Bitton (Social and Cultural History, 1830–1900) John L. Sorenson (Social and Cultural History, 1901–1972) The histories by Bushman, Backman, Campbell, Alexander, Cowan, Britsch, and Tullis were published in the 1980s. Lyon's volume was taken over by Glen Leonard, who published Nauvoo: A Place of Peace, a People of Promise in 2002. I don't recall what Arrington said about the contracts, but I'll check it when I get home. Glen Leonard was my Stake President at one time, if I'd only known that he was a historian back then, except that I wasn't worried about anything in church history back then either.
Calm Posted July 27, 2016 Posted July 27, 2016 8 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: I have no doubt that these "unfavorable facts" have long ago conveniently disappeared from the Church archive never to be seen or heard from a gain... <----- This is a statement of speculation on my part based on reasoned logic of past performance by such church historians as Joseph Fielding Smith Then how would Arrington be aware of them?
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