Bible inerancy questions from investigator

[Anakin7]

     See also in response to KJV Onlyites  http://www.kjvonly.org 

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

             Anakin7

[FormerLDS]

Friends, obviously this is fairly debatable; you pose some very good questions.

What we should be able to agree upon is very simple, very relevant and, for those willing to see this, very obvious.

Just the facts please:

1. Angelic beings of light have appeared to many people throughout history.

2. Their message is essentially the same:

   A. To be correctly understood, the Bible requires the additional writings and teachings of <insert name>

   B. Although presented as a "free gift", eternal life is actually contingent upon worthy behavior as outlined by <insert name>

 

Edited February 4, 2016 by FormerLDS

[Freedom]

15 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

Friends, obviously this is fairly debatable; you pose some very good questions.

What we should be able to agree upon is very simple, very relevant and, for those willing to see this, very obvious.

Just the facts please:

1. Angelic beings of light have appeared to many people throughout history.

2. Their message is essentially the same:

   A. To be correctly understood, the Bible requires the additional writings and teachings of <insert name>

   B. Although presented as a "free gift", eternal life is actually contingent upon worthy behavior as outlined by <insert name>

 

I am not quite sure what you are looking for but I will provide the following

2.a. living prophets

2.b. Jesus, John, Paul, James, Nephi, and every prophet living or dead

[FormerLDS]

45 minutes ago, Freedom said:

I am not quite sure what you are looking for but I will provide the following

2.a. living prophets

2.b. Jesus, John, Paul, James, Nephi, and every prophet living or dead

The point is, every angel of light requires one to first question Biblical inerancy. 

What is it about the as-is Bible these angelic beings of light simply cannot stand? 

I think the facts speak for themselves.

[Freedom]

9 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

The point is, every angel of light requires one to first question Biblical inerancy. 

What is it about the as-is Bible these angelic beings of light simply cannot stand? 

I think the facts speak for themselves.

I have no idea what you are getting at. What do you mean by an angel of light; are you suggesting that only the devil would call the bible fallible? have you ignored all the posts before? Why is it that Satan is so determined to have us believe that God has stopped speaking and that he will no longer give new light and knowledge? Clearly the bible does not claim to be inerant. In fact it says quite the opposite. Please respond to my posts concerning Hebrews 11:3. 

[RevTestament]

18 hours ago, Freedom said:

My position is that proof does not make the bible true and a lack of proof does not make it false. For example, the story of the walls of jericho, as far as he current evidence is concerned, is false. There was no great wall, and the city was destroyed generations before the bible says it was. The argument is that there is proof for the bible, therefore before I will accept the book of mormon you must provide this same proof. The biblical proof, as little as there is, has only shown up very recently perhaps only in the last 50 years. The contradictions show that the text has either been tampered with, or that the original authors exaggerated or made mistakes. 

The story of the walls of Jericho is not false. That assumes that Rameses II was the pharaoh of the exodus and I now know that was not the case. The evidence actually does show the walls of.Jericho fell before the city was burned and about the same time other cities listed in the Torah were destroyed. The wall was also a very large wall.

 

 

[Freedom]

28 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

The story of the walls of Jericho is not false. That assumes that Rameses II was the pharaoh of the exodus and I now know that was not the case. The evidence actually does show the walls of.Jericho fell before the city was burned and about the same time other cities listed in the Torah were destroyed. The wall was also a very large wall.

 

 

I never said the story was false, I said that the evidence contradicts the narrative so if you are relying on proof, you must reject the story. 

[Zakuska]

2 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

The point is, every angel of light requires one to first question Biblical inerancy. 

What is it about the as-is Bible these angelic beings of light simply cannot stand? 

I think the facts speak for themselves.

I think the facts do speak for them selves too. Especially when the Bible says an angel of light will come preaching the Gospel.

Revelation 14:6King James Version (KJV)

⁶ And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

If an Angel has to come back from heaven with it to preach, how can the earth have the gospel?

[Anakin7]

7 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

The point is, every angel of light requires one to first question Biblical inerancy. 

What is it about the as-is Bible these angelic beings of light simply cannot stand? 

I think the facts speak for themselves.

        Any KJV Only Advocate will more than be welcome to teach you FormerLDS about all the corrupt Bibles there are outside the KJV.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

             Anakin7

[RevTestament]

7 hours ago, Freedom said:

I never said the story was false, I said that the evidence contradicts the narrative so if you are relying on proof, you must reject the story. 

As I said I don't believe the evidence supports your position.of course there is no proof of the story, but I believe it can be accurately said that there is much evidence to support the narrative. If one accepts Ramses II as the Pharaoh of the exodus then the evidence would seem to conflict with the narrative, but that's not the case. The exodus occurred about two centuries before that which is consistent with the archaeological evidence. There's actually too much evidence to review in such a short space as this. It would take pages.

[danielwoods]

14 hours ago, Zakuska said:

I think the facts do speak for them selves too. Especially when the Bible says an angel of light will come preaching the Gospel.

Revelation 14:6King James Version (KJV)

⁶ And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

If an Angel has to come back from heaven with it to preach, how can the earth have the gospel?

The Bible also says that Satan comes as an angel of light. 

As for your question, Rev. 14 describes an event that occurs after the church is taken from the Earth, hence no one present to preach the gospel. 

 

[JLHPROF]

15 minutes ago, danielwoods said:

As for your question, Rev. 14 describes an event that occurs after the church is taken from the Earth, hence no one present to preach the gospel.

 

Exactly.  When the Church was taken from the earth after the Apostles in Christ's day were gone and the doctrines began to be lost or altered.

And the gospel is restored to earth by divine messengers.
Exactly as it happened, fulfilling the Biblical prophecy to the letter.

[thesometimesaint]

8 hours ago, RevTestament said:

As I said I don't believe the evidence supports your position.of course there is no proof of the story, but I believe it can be accurately said that there is much evidence to support the narrative. If one accepts Ramses II as the Pharaoh of the exodus then the evidence would seem to conflict with the narrative, but that's not the case. The exodus occurred about two centuries before that which is consistent with the archaeological evidence. There's actually too much evidence to review in such a short space as this. It would take pages.

There is neither evidence of a Moses, nor of a exodus, outside the Bible.

[JLHPROF]

22 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

There is neither evidence of a Moses, nor of a exodus, outside the Bible.

Except of course for the fact that Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery actually met him (and may have had his hands place upon their heads) and Joseph F. Smith saw him in vision.
That's good enough for me.

• D&C 110:11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
• D&C 138:41 Noah, who gave warning of the flood; Shem, the great high priest; Abraham, the father of the faithful; Isaac, Jacob, and Moses, the great law-giver of Israel;

Wonderful to think that Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery and Joseph F. Smith all actually knew what Moses (and others) look like.

[FormerLDS]

19 hours ago, Freedom said:

I have no idea what you are getting at. What do you mean by an angel of light; are you suggesting that only the devil would call the bible fallible? have you ignored all the posts before? Why is it that Satan is so determined to have us believe that God has stopped speaking and that he will no longer give new light and knowledge? Clearly the bible does not claim to be inerant. In fact it says quite the opposite. Please respond to my posts concerning Hebrews 11:3. 

Your premise is an incorrect assumption.

Are there not false prophets, false Christs and false doctrines?

Why would be so difficult to see there are also false scriptures? 

The Bible does claim to be pure and perfectly preserved in Psalm 12:6-7

  "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."

[thesometimesaint]

50 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Except of course for the fact that Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery actually met him (and may have had his hands place upon their heads) and Joseph F. Smith saw him in vision.
That's good enough for me.

• D&C 110:11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.
• D&C 138:41 Noah, who gave warning of the flood; Shem, the great high priest; Abraham, the father of the faithful; Isaac, Jacob, and Moses, the great law-giver of Israel;

Wonderful to think that Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery and Joseph F. Smith all actually knew what Moses (and others) look like.

Supernatural evidence isn't evidence. But I'm fine with Moses, Joseph Smith, and Oliver Cowdery.

Edited February 5, 2016 by thesometimesaint

[JLHPROF]

12 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Supernatural evidence isn't evidence.

Well, there goes pretty much all of religion.
 

[danielwoods]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Exactly.  When the Church was taken from the earth after the Apostles in Christ's day were gone and the doctrines began to be lost or altered.

And the gospel is restored to earth by divine messengers.
Exactly as it happened, fulfilling the Biblical prophecy to the letter.

Unfortunately, the events described in Revelation don't match your description, because they are described in Relation as judgements from God on the Earth, not a losing or altering of the doctrines by man. 

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said:

There is neither evidence of a Moses, nor of a exodus, outside the Bible.

And the BoM, and PoGP, etc I presume? What would you consider evidence? If the ark of the covenant appeared would you accept that as evidence?

There is corroborating archaeological evidence that a people called Israel appeared in the land of Canaan even before Ramses II - that there was a "house of David" - a God known as YHWH to other peoples such as the Egyptians, and Moabites. While there may not be direct evidence that an exodus occurred - I didn't say that - there is substantial corroborating evidence of events consistent with the narrative. I believe this to be true for the Book of Mormon as well - this too would take pages and pages to go through.

[thesometimesaint]

17 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Well, there goes pretty much all of religion.
 

Yep. But I'm no atheist. I just try to keep my science and religion far apart.

[JLHPROF]

6 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Yep. But I'm no atheist. I just try to keep my science and religion far apart.

So do I.  But I always choose the word of God over the word of man.
Eventually, the scientific truths will be revealed by God.  God will not be revealed by science.

[Zakuska]

2 hours ago, danielwoods said:

The Bible also says that Satan comes as an angel of light. 

As for your question, Rev. 14 describes an event that occurs after the church is taken from the Earth, hence no one present to preach the gospel. 

 

Hmmm... sounds exactly like what happened when the last Apostle was martyred and the authority to preach the gospel was lost.

Edited February 5, 2016 by Zakuska

[thesometimesaint]

1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

So do I.  But I always choose the word of God over the word of man.
Eventually, the scientific truths will be revealed by God.  God will not be revealed by science.

Even our Scriptures and official pronouncements from Salt Lake City are the word of man.

God for some reason has been very lax in revealing science from any religion.

Talking snakes, and donkey's.

A flat circular earth.

SEE http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Flat_Earth

Sticking a striped stick in the ground just doesn't change the DNA of livestock.

SEE Genesis 30:31-43

Never had any expectation that God could be revealed by science.

[JLHPROF]

44 minutes ago, danielwoods said:

Unfortunately, the events described in Revelation don't match your description, because they are described in Relation as judgements from God on the Earth, not a losing or altering of the doctrines by man.

Actually, despite popular LDS interpretation, I kind of agree with you.
Revelation 14 clearly describes events yet to happen.

Revelation 14:6 doesn't refer to the restoration, despite LDS urban legend and LDS topical guide assignment.
It comes after the second coming, after the 144,000 go out, and is followed directly with the destruction of Babylon (the nations of the world).

But still, doesn't impact the great apostasy and restoration being Biblical.

[Zakuska]

2 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

Your premise is an incorrect assumption.

Are there not false prophets, false Christs and false doctrines?

Why would be so difficult to see there are also false scriptures? 

The Bible does claim to be pure and perfectly preserved in Psalm 12:6-7

  "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."

Yes spoken words.  Says nothing about the written word. However Jeremiah addresses the coruption of the written word.

Jer 8:8

“‘How can you say, “We are wise,
for we have the law of the Lord,”
when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?