savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 Quote God was in the begining and brought forth Jesus [aka wisdom] the first thing he created. Which causes major issues for you. This doesn't pose a problem after all the 1st and 2nd and 3rd Person agreed the 2nd Person would be brought forth to be seen and pay the penalty and show perfect obedience to the Father.
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 He's also the 1st born of creation directly from God being God.
Zakuska Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 5 minutes ago, savedwheat said: He's also the 1st born of creation directly from God being God. CFR where is this "agreement" you speak of?
JAHS Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 16 minutes ago, savedwheat said: He's also the 1st born of creation directly from God being God. So was Jesus praying to Himself in the Garden of Gethsemane? How does that work?
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 No, Jesus was not praying to Himself but to the Father.
JAHS Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 23 minutes ago, savedwheat said: No, Jesus was not praying to Himself but to the Father. So where was the Father? In heaven right? When Jesus was baptized it says the Father 's voice came from heaven. How can this not mean they are two separate individuals?
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 You're seeing the 3 operations of God in His 3 Persons. We can only see one side of God at a time: Father, Son or Spirit. But God is aware of His full dimension. Like a stick figure on a piece of paper you don't and can't see the whole cube because you're on a lower dimension.
Anakin7 Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 God of the philosophers you want us to accept. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
Zakuska Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) Just now, savedwheat said: You're seeing the 3 operations of God in His 3 Persons. We can only see one side of God at a time: Father, Son or Spirit. But God is aware of His full dimension. Like a stick figure on a piece of paper you don't and can't see the whole cube because you're on a lower dimension. Stephen saw 2 sides of God at one time when he saw Christ standing on Gods right hand. Edited January 24, 2016 by Zakuska
JAHS Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 3 minutes ago, savedwheat said: You're seeing the 3 operations of God in His 3 Persons. We can only see one side of God at a time: Father, Son or Spirit. But God is aware of His full dimension. Like a stick figure on a piece of paper you don't and can't see the whole cube because you're on a lower dimension. "But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God." (Acts 7: 55-56) Stephen saw both at the same time. Jesus standing at the right side of God.
Zakuska Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 Likewise... John the baptist saw "2 sides" of God at the same time when he saw Christ in the water and the Holy Ghost descending on him in the bodily form of a dove.
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 Nobody can see the Father. But the Trinity agreed the 2nd Person would be Jesus to atone for sins.
JAHS Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 6 minutes ago, savedwheat said: Nobody can see the Father. But the Trinity agreed the 2nd Person would be Jesus to atone for sins. So Stephen did not see God and Jesus like he said? What scripture are you referring to where the trinity agreed Jesus would atone for our sins? I don't see the word trinity in any scripture. 1
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) "Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient [even] unto death, yea, the death of the cross. Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name; that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven and [things] on earth and [things] under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil. 2.5-11). “As regards to the Godhead, the Son and the Father are co-equal; but His being the Lord is rewarded Him by God. The Lord Jesus Christ was made Lord only after He emptied Himself. His deity derives from who He is, for His being God is His inherent nature. His being Lord, though, issues out of what He has done. He was exalted and rewarded by God to be the Lord only after He forsook His glory and maintained the perfect role of obedience. As regards Himself, He is God; as regards reward, He is Lord. His Lordship did not exist originally in the Godhead. The passage in Philippians 2 is most difficult to explain, for it is most controversial besides being most holy. Let's remove our shoes and stand on holy ground as we review the Scripture. It seems as though at the beginning a council was held within the Godhead. God conceived a plan to create the universe. In that plan the Godhead agreed to have authority represented by the Father. But authority cannot exist alone. God must therefore find obedience in the universe. Two living beings were to be created: angels (spirits) and men (living souls). According to His foreknowledge God foresaw the rebellion of the angels and the fall of men; hence He was unable to establish His authority in angels or in the Adamic race. Consequently, within the Godhead perfect accord was reached that authority would be reached by the obedience of the Son. From this come the distinctive operations of God the Father and God the Son. One day God the Son emptied himself, and being born in the likeness of men. He became the symbol of obedience. Inasmuch as rebellion came from the created beings, so obedience must now be established in the created being. Man sinned and rebelled; therefore the authority of God must be erected on man’s obedience. This explains why the Lord came to the world and was made as one of the created men”. (Spiritual Authority, CFP white cover, 47-48, Watchman Nee) "Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus" (v.5). "Who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men" (vv.6,7). The prerogatives of Christ—that which is legally and rightfully His—is His being in the form of God and being equal with God. Yet He "emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men." What, then, you ask, is the mind of Christ? It is to do what He did: to forfeit one’s rightful privileges. Perhaps you are concerned about how you should be treated by other people. But Christ does not hold on to what is rightfully His. He took the attitude of mind that His being on an equality with God was not something to be grasped after, but instead He emptied himself and took the form of a bondslave. Such is the mind of Christ. Jesus said, "I and the Father are one" (John 10.30); on the other hand He also said this: "the Father is greater than I" (John 14.28). Is there any inherent gradation of power and authority between and among the members in the Godhead? Certainly not. And hence the consideration of greater or smaller here cannot have reference to that which one is born with; rather, it is something that is willed or desired or submitted to gladly. The Father sends the Son, and the Son sends the Spirit. And such a submissive arrangement is according to the sublime humility to be found in the Godhead. "The form of a servant" are words which speak of the lowliness of our Lord; "the likeness of men" is a phrase which signifies the human restriction our Lord takes upon himself. The form of a servant is presented in contrast to the form of God, while man is presented in contrast to God. God is not restricted by time and space, by food and rest. The form of God is glorious, whereas the form of a servant is lowly. The mind of Christ is therefore expressed in His willingness to humble himself and to suffer restriction. "And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross" (v.8). The obedience of Christ is profoundly demonstrated in His obeying His equal, not in His obeying His superior. His obedience is from the heart and goes all the way to the death of the cross. (From Glory to Glory, CFP white cover, 140,141,42, Watchman Nee) Herein do we see resurrection life. Without the supernatural life of God there can be no resurrection after death. The Lord Jesus could go through death and yet be raised because resident in Him is God’s uncreated life. This life cannot be destroyed: it instead will always emerge into the fullness and glory of resurrection. Jesus poured out His soul to death and committed His spirit (in which was God’s life) back into the hands of God. His death set Him free from soul life and released God’s spiritual life unto greater splendor. It is difficult indeed to understand why God, upon transmitting His life to us, then requires us to experience co-death with Christ so that His life may be resurrected in us. This is nonetheless God’s law of life. And once possessing God’s life, we then are empowered to periodically go through death and continue to come out alive. By continuously losing our soul life in death, we may continuously gain more abundantly and gloriously of God’s life in resurrection. God’s aim is to take our soul life through death in company with His Own life in us; whenever His life in us is resurrected in our daily experience our soul also is raised with Him and produces fruit to eternity. This is one of the most profound lessons in spiritual life. The Holy Spirit alone can unfold to us the necessity of death as well as that of resurrection. May the Spirit of revelation make us understand how much our spiritual experience shall suffer if we do not hate our natural life and deliver it to death. Only when our soul accompanied by God’s indwelling life passes through death and resurrection can we bear spiritual fruit and keep it for life eternal. (The Spiritual Man, CFP white cover, Vol. 1, Part 3, 192) "By passing through death it affords God an opportunity to communicate His life to us. Not to lose that soul life in death shall mean great loss for the believer; but in losing it he will save it for eternity." (TSM, Vol. 1, 190). http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/thewayofthelord.htm Edited January 24, 2016 by savedwheat
JAHS Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 8 minutes ago, savedwheat said: "Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient [even] unto death, yea, the death of the cross. Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name; that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven and [things] on earth and [things] under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil. 2.5-11). “As regards to the Godhead, the Son and the Father are co-equal; but His being the Lord is rewarded Him by God. The Lord Jesus Christ was made Lord only after He emptied Himself. His deity derives from who He is, for His being God is His inherent nature. His being Lord, though, issues out of what He has done. He was exalted and rewarded by God to be the Lord only after He forsook His glory and maintained the perfect role of obedience. As regards Himself, He is God; as regards reward, He is Lord. His Lordship did not exist originally in the Godhead. The passage in Philippians 2 is most difficult to explain, for it is most controversial besides being most holy. Let's remove our shoes and stand on holy ground as we review the Scripture. It seems as though at the beginning a council was held within the Godhead. God conceived a plan to create the universe. In that plan the Godhead agreed to have authority represented by the Father. But authority cannot exist alone. God must therefore find obedience in the universe. Two living beings were to be created: angels (spirits) and men (living souls). According to His foreknowledge God foresaw the rebellion of the angels and the fall of men; hence He was unable to establish His authority in angels or in the Adamic race. Consequently, within the Godhead perfect accord was reached that authority would be reached by the obedience of the Son. From this come the distinctive operations of God the Father and God the Son. One day God the Son emptied himself, and being born in the likeness of men. He became the symbol of obedience. Inasmuch as rebellion came from the created beings, so obedience must now be established in the created being. Man sinned and rebelled; therefore the authority of God must be erected on man’s obedience. This explains why the Lord came to the world and was made as one of the created men”. (Spiritual Authority, CFP white cover, 47-48, Watchman Nee) "Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus" (v.5). "Who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men" (vv.6,7). The prerogatives of Christ—that which is legally and rightfully His—is His being in the form of God and being equal with God. Yet He "emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men." What, then, you ask, is the mind of Christ? It is to do what He did: to forfeit one’s rightful privileges. Perhaps you are concerned about how you should be treated by other people. But Christ does not hold on to what is rightfully His. He took the attitude of mind that His being on an equality with God was not something to be grasped after, but instead He emptied himself and took the form of a bondslave. Such is the mind of Christ. Jesus said, "I and the Father are one" (John 10.30); on the other hand He also said this: "the Father is greater than I" (John 14.28). Is there any inherent gradation of power and authority between and among the members in the Godhead? Certainly not. And hence the consideration of greater or smaller here cannot have reference to that which one is born with; rather, it is something that is willed or desired or submitted to gladly. The Father sends the Son, and the Son sends the Spirit. And such a submissive arrangement is according to the sublime humility to be found in the Godhead. "The form of a servant" are words which speak of the lowliness of our Lord; "the likeness of men" is a phrase which signifies the human restriction our Lord takes upon himself. The form of a servant is presented in contrast to the form of God, while man is presented in contrast to God. God is not restricted by time and space, by food and rest. The form of God is glorious, whereas the form of a servant is lowly. The mind of Christ is therefore expressed in His willingness to humble himself and to suffer restriction. "And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross" (v.8). The obedience of Christ is profoundly demonstrated in His obeying His equal, not in His obeying His superior. His obedience is from the heart and goes all the way to the death of the cross. (From Glory to Glory, CFP white cover, 140,141,42, Watchman Nee) Herein do we see resurrection life. Without the supernatural life of God there can be no resurrection after death. The Lord Jesus could go through death and yet be raised because resident in Him is God’s uncreated life. This life cannot be destroyed: it instead will always emerge into the fullness and glory of resurrection. Jesus poured out His soul to death and committed His spirit (in which was God’s life) back into the hands of God. His death set Him free from soul life and released God’s spiritual life unto greater splendor. It is difficult indeed to understand why God, upon transmitting His life to us, then requires us to experience co-death with Christ so that His life may be resurrected in us. This is nonetheless God’s law of life. And once possessing God’s life, we then are empowered to periodically go through death and continue to come out alive. By continuously losing our soul life in death, we may continuously gain more abundantly and gloriously of God’s life in resurrection. God’s aim is to take our soul life through death in company with His Own life in us; whenever His life in us is resurrected in our daily experience our soul also is raised with Him and produces fruit to eternity. This is one of the most profound lessons in spiritual life. The Holy Spirit alone can unfold to us the necessity of death as well as that of resurrection. May the Spirit of revelation make us understand how much our spiritual experience shall suffer if we do not hate our natural life and deliver it to death. Only when our soul accompanied by God’s indwelling life passes through death and resurrection can we bear spiritual fruit and keep it for life eternal. (The Spiritual Man, CFP white cover, Vol. 1, Part 3, 192) "By passing through death it affords God an opportunity to communicate His life to us. Not to lose that soul life in death shall mean great loss for the believer; but in losing it he will save it for eternity." (TSM, Vol. 1, 190). "There are a lot of long words in there, Miss; we're naught but humble pirates." 1
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 In short Jesus is God and so is God and they agreed Jesus would enter creation in our likeness.
JAHS Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 3 minutes ago, savedwheat said: In short Jesus is God and so is God and they agreed Jesus would enter creation in our likeness. Whoever said all that I do not agree with his explanation. Its so much easier to understand them as separate beings who are one in purpose. When Jesus was praying to himself He said, referring to His disciples: "And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.." (John 17:21) He didn't want his disciples to be one person, but to work together as one for a purpose, the same as he and His Father.
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 God's infinitely greater than you and you want to make it easier for yourself instead of what He has appropriated for us? Jesus never prayed to Himself. Obviously since everyone is an independent conscious being He was not trying to combine them into one being that's silly. Whereas Jesus and the Father are already one Being.
Glenn101 Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 24 minutes ago, savedwheat said: God's infinitely greater than you and you want to make it easier for yourself instead of what He has appropriated for us? Jesus never prayed to Himself. Obviously since everyone is an independent conscious being He was not trying to combine them into one being that's silly. Whereas Jesus and the Father are already one Being. savedwheat, You are arguing your "trinity" interpretation of the Gospel to us. This interpretation is rejected by LDS because the scriptures, including the Bible, make it clear that God the Father and God the Son are two separate entities. The quote about Stephen is one. We also have newer revelations which underscore that separation. You may reject those revelations, which is your right. But the LDS do not, and we are not bound by your interpretations, or those of other Christian denominations which believe in the trinity. It requires a tortured logic to accept that. I gave up masochism of the mind a long time ago.
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 Since Jesus is God and Father is God then this is the Trinity. Since Jesus created all things then the Trinity must be true otherwise He did not create all things. Jesus is I AM so is the Father so that is the Trinity. Jesus is the Alpha and Omega but so is the Father so that is the Trinity. Only the uncreated Creator has the power to atone for sins so that is the Trinity.
Zakuska Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 Just now, savedwheat said: Since Jesus is God and Father is God then this is the Trinity. Since Jesus created all things then the Trinity must be true otherwise He did not create all things. Jesus is I AM so is the Father so that is the Trinity. Jesus is the Alpha and Omega but so is the Father so that is the Trinity. Only the uncreated Creator has the power to atone for sins so that is the Trinity. If Christ is "one being" with his father then he suffers from dimensia. Because not even he knows when his second coming will be.
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 Remember He emptied Himself of His independent attributes to be likeness of flesh for us. This is not to say He won't always know. He likely knows the minute He returns now that He is at the right hand of the Father. He is still the fullness of the Godhead bodily all God could be in bodily form.
Zakuska Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 21 minutes ago, savedwheat said: Remember He emptied Himself of His independent attributes to be likeness of flesh for us. This is not to say He won't always know. He likely knows the minute He returns now that He is at the right hand of the Father. He is still the fullness of the Godhead bodily all God could be in bodily form. 'Likely knows'... you're speculation and mis reading scriptures again I see.
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 He's at the right hand of the Father, of course He knows now. In fact I know. Jesus can't return before Rev. 6.12 2010-15 followed by 7 years of plenty then 7 years of famine which takes His return in 2030 after the sign of the Son of Man asteroid Apophis April 13, 2029 within 25000 mi of earth, 3 football fields in length, and last time hit earth was 80,000 years ago. Rev. 3.3 says if you don't know it is because you are not watchful. You misreading or misunderstanding something.
The Nehor Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 3 hours ago, savedwheat said: He's at the right hand of the Father, of course He knows now. In fact I know. Jesus can't return before Rev. 6.12 2010-15 followed by 7 years of plenty then 7 years of famine which takes His return in 2030 after the sign of the Son of Man asteroid Apophis April 13, 2029 within 25000 mi of earth, 3 football fields in length, and last time hit earth was 80,000 years ago. Rev. 3.3 says if you don't know it is because you are not watchful. You misreading or misunderstanding something. i will update my prophecy calendar accordingly.
Recommended Posts