savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 "That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love" (Eph. 3.16,17). "his Spirit" is His not another being. Christ dwells in the heart of a believer by "his Spirit". "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you" (John 14.26). The only way the Holy Spirit can bring all things into remembrance what Jesus said is if the Holy Spirit is co-equal with the Son. "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matt. 28.19). Baptize in all that is God not some other being or beings, lesser beings, etc. "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied" (1 Pet. 1.2). Elect are according to all that is God. 1
ERayR Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 3 minutes ago, savedwheat said: "That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love" (Eph. 3.16,17). "his Spirit" is His not another being. Christ dwells in the heart of a believer by "his Spirit". "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you" (John 14.26). The only way the Holy Spirit can bring all things into remembrance what Jesus said is if the Holy Spirit is co-equal with the Son. "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matt. 28.19). Baptize in all that is God not some other being or beings, lesser beings, etc. "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied" (1 Pet. 1.2). Elect are according to all that is God. Where does it say Triune God? 1
Sevenbak Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 No, this isn't a 12 headed beast from Revelations, but rather a little photoshop attempt years ago trying to describe the apostles in a Trinitarian view of what it means to be one, as Jesus and the Father are one. "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee..." John 17:21 1
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 7 hours ago, ERayR said: Where does it say Triune God? Whenever it says Jesus is God and God is God is God and I AM and Alpha and Omega and Jesus created all things and none beside Father, Son, Spirit. "4 We all know that an idol is not really a god and that there no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 we know that there is only one God, the Father, who created everything, and we live for him. And there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom God made everything and through whom we have been given life" (1 Cor. 8.4-6). 1
savedwheat Posted January 24, 2016 Author Posted January 24, 2016 1 minute ago, Sevenbak said: No, this isn't a 12 headed beast from Revelations, but rather a little photoshop attempt years ago trying to describe the apostles in a Trinitarian view of what it means to be one, as Jesus and the Father are one. "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee..." John 17:21 Father, Son and Spirit are one because they are one being. You always have to ask yourself if there is more than one being where do these others come from.
halconero Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 1 minute ago, savedwheat said: Father, Son and Spirit are one because they are one being. You always have to ask yourself if there is more than one being where do these others come from. Nah. That's not the Triune God. The doctrine of the Trinity as formulated by the Church Fathers declares that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one God without confusing the Persons. The Father is God, the Son is God, the Spirit is God, but the being or person of each is separate. 2
Sevenbak Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 5 minutes ago, savedwheat said: Father, Son and Spirit are one because they are one being. You always have to ask yourself if there is more than one being where do these others come from. No, the apostles are asked to be one, as Christ and the Father are one. Thus the 12 headed beast. Again, distinct and separate beings, but one in purpose.
Jim Stiles Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 Quote Matthew 3:16–17. And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: and lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Note the differences from the official version of the First Vision of God the Father and Jesus to Joseph Smith Jr. The eyewitnesses to the baptism of Jesus heard the voice of God the Father (but did not see a man) and the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove. Also note the Transfiguration: Quote Matthew 17:1-9 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. If God the Father has a body of flesh and bone like our own, then why, in both the Baptism and Transfiguration accounts, God the Father makes his presence known with a voice and not with a physical presence?
Jim Stiles Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 25 minutes ago, Sevenbak said: No, this isn't a 12 headed beast from Revelations, but rather a little photoshop attempt years ago trying to describe the apostles in a Trinitarian view of what it means to be one, as Jesus and the Father are one. "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee..." John 17:21 Quote John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. So much for the idea of three human beings conjoined together.
Jim Stiles Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 7 hours ago, ERayR said: Where does it say Triune God? Here: Quote Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: Quote 2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. Quote Ephesians 6:23-24 Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen. Quote Matthew 28:16-20 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Zakuska Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 Just now, Jim Stiles said: Here: I'm not seeing the word "truine" in any of those verses. I do see 3 beings working in unity with each other. 2
halconero Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 All those verses can be interpreted in a non-Trinitarian manner, and none of them spell out the doctrine as the Ecumenical Councils. See, that's where you posters like 3DOP and Saemo have the one-up on you Bible-only types. They didn't throw the ecumenical baby out with the apostolic bath water. 2
Jim Stiles Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 This is useful source for information about the traditional Christian view of the Trinity: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm
halconero Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 Sigh... I know the creeds. All I'm saying is that if you're one of the small c-catholic churches (Orthodox, Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, etc.) you're cool. If you're trying to justify the Trinity on Biblical authority alone you'll run into trouble. 2
Jim Stiles Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 25 minutes ago, halconero said: All those verses can be interpreted in a non-Trinitarian manner, and none of them spell out the doctrine as the Ecumenical Councils. See, that's where you posters like 3DOP and Saemo have the one-up on you Bible-only types. They didn't throw the ecumenical baby out with the apostolic bath water. Did you see my post citing the Catholic Encyclopedia on the doctrine of the trinity? They do a pretty good job of describing the reasoning behind the traditional Christian view. Reference is made to both scripture (especially to the Great Commission) and tradition. Trinitarian blessing and benedictions were very popular in the early church, just as they are popular today in formal Christian worship.
Jim Stiles Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 29 minutes ago, halconero said: All those verses can be interpreted in a non-Trinitarian manner, and none of them spell out the doctrine as the Ecumenical Councils... Some idiot might think that this verse gives him the command to execute all non-Christians. Quote Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. He would be dead wrong though.
The Nehor Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 1 hour ago, savedwheat said: Father, Son and Spirit are one because they are one being. You always have to ask yourself if there is more than one being where do these others come from. Reread your creeds. Also, I am pretty sure the Father begat the Son so it is not that hard to figure out where he came from. He told us.
Avatar4321 Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 9 hours ago, savedwheat said: "That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love" (Eph. 3.16,17). "his Spirit" is His not another being. Christ dwells in the heart of a believer by "his Spirit". "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you" (John 14.26). The only way the Holy Spirit can bring all things into remembrance what Jesus said is if the Holy Spirit is co-equal with the Son. "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matt. 28.19). Baptize in all that is God not some other being or beings, lesser beings, etc. "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied" (1 Pet. 1.2). Elect are according to all that is God. Yeah... You keep inserting things in those verses don't actually say. Why is that?
MDalby Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) The following is a snippet from an article that Orson Card wrote. Quote In one sense, we're in perfect agreement. We all point to the Bible and say, "We believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." We believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that he is divine himself, and that only by his grace can we be cleansed of our sins and return to the presence of the Father. As far as I'm concerned, anybody who believes that is a Christian. You can be wrong about a lot of the details, but all who accept Christ's divinity and try to live by his teachings are Christians. However, something happened between the writing of the Bible and the settling of the traditional Christian doctrine of God. What came between them was Plato. Technically, it was Neoplatonism. But I'm not writing a book, I'm writing a newspaper essaycolumn, and a lot of fine distinctions are going to be left out. For a thorough treatment of the details, read "How Greek Philosophy Corrupted the Christian Concept of God," by Richard R. Hopkins. Plato taught that all physical objects are unreal because they're corrupt and imperfect and doomed to change and die. The perfect chair or star or stone or man has no tangible existence — only the "idea" of these things can be real because only the idea does not change or corrupt or break or die. Likewise, whatever we call true, beautiful or good in this world is merely a shadow of the ideal, and therefore real and unchanging Truth, Beauty and Goodness. In Plato's view, the only god worth worshipping is the perfect ideal of the True, the Beautiful and the Good. That god cannot have any physical presence in time and space because physicality and duration would diminish its perfection. The Bible, however, is thick with references to the physical existence of God. We are made in his image, says Genesis. Christ went to some trouble to show his disciples that he had become a resurrected being with a body of flesh and bone. Yet somehow, within a few generations after the writing of the New Testament, "traditional Christianity" had adopted Plato's definition of the perfection of God, and treated the biblical physicality of God as metaphor. The main point of disagreement between Mormons and traditional Christianity is that we believe in the biblical God — the God in whose image we were made, the resurrected Christ with a perfect body of flesh and bone — and they don't. Or, rather, their theologians don't. Most ordinary Christians ignore the creeds; when they pray, they're thinking of God as a person with a face, with arms and legs, who actually exists in space and time. They believe in the biblical God, as we do. You have to go to college to accept the paradoxes of the platonic God that traditional Christianity has embraced. To help make the difference clear, let me use, as a parable, some "doctrines" we all learned in high school geometry class: A line is perfectly straight and infinitely long. All lines in the same plane either touch or they don't touch. If they don't touch, they are parallel and they go in the same direction, infinitely. Those are the only two choices with lines in the same plane: They're either parallel or they intersect somewhere. Now here's a theological argument between a traditional Christian (TC) and a biblical Christian (LDS): TC: The Trinity consists of three parallel lines, which touch each other. LDS: If they touch each other, they're not parallel. TC: Nevertheless, they are parallel, and they touch. They touch at every point. LDS: If they touch at every point, they're the same line. Not three. TC: They touch at every point, yet there are three. LDS: That doesn't make any sense. Lines can't be different yet the same, parallel yet intersecting. The words stop having any meaning when you say such things. TC: That's because you have a finite, mortal mind, which cannot comprehend the nature of geometry. LDS: That's just crazy. The Trinity is three lines, completely distinct, perfectly parallel, so they go infinitely in the same direction. That's simple, it's clear, and it's true. In fact, we've seen the lines. TC: That's blasphemy! You can never see the lines! They're only imaginary! LDS: Your lines are imaginary. The lines we've seen are real. TC: Then you are not Geometers! And that's where the discussion always ends. By Orson Scott Card For the Deseret Morning News Published: Friday, Dec. 7, 2007 Edited January 24, 2016 by MDalby
ERayR Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 9 hours ago, savedwheat said: Whenever it says Jesus is God and God is God is God and I AM and Alpha and Omega and Jesus created all things and none beside Father, Son, Spirit. "4 We all know that an idol is not really a god and that there no God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 we know that there is only one God, the Father, who created everything, and we live for him. And there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom God made everything and through whom we have been given life" (1 Cor. 8.4-6). You know what it says about adding to the Bible? Why do you add what isn't there? 2
ERayR Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 8 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: 8 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: Here: Triune is spelled T-R-I-U-N-E. 1
volgadon Posted January 24, 2016 Posted January 24, 2016 9 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: So much for the idea of three human beings conjoined together. Then how can you worship God?
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