volgadon Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 4 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: ...but we do know that it wasn't Nephite Why have we not learned their correct name from a pottery shard? 1
Johnnie Cake Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 14 minutes ago, volgadon said: Why have we not learned their correct name from a pottery shard? you can't be serious...
Popular Post volgadon Posted January 22, 2016 Popular Post Posted January 22, 2016 8 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: you can't be serious... Now go and revisit your original claim about pottery shards and let me know if it should be taken seriously. 5
Gervin Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 3 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Problem A is that you've created a fantasy scenario -- if Nephites really existed, then we should find X, Y and Z There's nothing at all fantastical about that scenario. Lots of things are found for cultures that existed: https://www.google.com/search?q=mesoamerican+artifacts&biw=2133&bih=1065&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwjFivOv3rzKAhUomYMKHUbQDeIQ_AUIBigB&dpr=0.9 From the scientific observation of those items inferences are drawn about the cultural way of life, language, religion, diet, death rituals, etc., etc., etc. If the culture described in the Book of Mormon truly existed then their material culture would reflect their way of life ... and the resultant artifacts, upon scientific observation, would reveal unique religions (the Law of Moses through early Christianity), Old World diets, a written language combining two Old World languages, etc., etc., etc. Artifacts with associations with symbols, language, art, construction, sustenance, death, religion, astronomy, communication, etc. are what we find for cultures from Mesoamerica to Bet She'an (site of 18 ancient cities built one on top of another https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beit_She%27an That's what a Nephite artifact might look like. Seen any?
volgadon Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 14 minutes ago, Gervin said: There's nothing at all fantastical about that scenario. Lots of things are found for cultures that existed: https://www.google.com/search?q=mesoamerican+artifacts&biw=2133&bih=1065&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwjFivOv3rzKAhUomYMKHUbQDeIQ_AUIBigB&dpr=0.9 From the scientific observation of those items inferences are drawn about the cultural way of life, language, religion, diet, death rituals, etc., etc., etc. If the culture described in the Book of Mormon truly existed then their material culture would reflect their way of life ... and the resultant artifacts, upon scientific observation, would reveal unique religions (the Law of Moses through early Christianity), Old World diets, a written language combining two Old World languages, etc., etc., etc. Artifacts with associations with symbols, language, art, construction, sustenance, death, religion, astronomy, communication, etc. are what we find for cultures from Mesoamerica to Bet She'an (site of 18 ancient cities built one on top of another https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beit_She%27an That's what a Nephite artifact might look like. Seen any? Sorry, you aren't very coherent here. 1
salgare Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) Did this not put an end to all this? http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/j/p/jpj1/debating.htm It should have. Back to the basics ... Where is that one piece of evidence? Did Bill Hamblin not represent the Mormon scholars well enough? If not, who will step up? Edited January 22, 2016 by salgare
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 4 hours ago, Gervin said: That's what a Nephite artifact might look like. Seen any? Nope, but I strongly suspect they're hiding in an undisclosed location with all of the archaeological evidence for the presence of the Hebrew slaves in Egypt and for the Exodus. 2
Gray Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 4 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Nope, but I strongly suspect they're hiding in an undisclosed location with all of the archaeological evidence for the presence of the Hebrew slaves in Egypt and for the Exodus. The Exodus is another story unlikely to have a basis in historical events. And yet, still valuable as scripture.
Johnnie Cake Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) 13 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Problem A is that you've created a fantasy scenario -- if Nephites really existed, then we should find X, Y and Z -- and then attempted to use the absence of X, Y and Z as conclusive evidence that Nephites didn't really exist. But such an exercise falls completely outside the realm of standard archaeology, which instead looks at evidence that does exist and then tries to interpret it in light of what else is known and assumed. Ok finally we've drilled down to the real "gold" of my argument...and why I stated in an earlier post that we're really not that far apart..Hamba Tuhan. In my original post to this thread I stated "I for one would LOVE some archeological, genetic, anthropological or really just about anything...a trinket, a coin, a Nephite pottery shard... basically the same stuff used to support the reality of other civilizations to also support Book of Mormon claims...but alias...we are left with nothing to support its claims other than faith. In your above quoted post you state that..."standard archaeology, which instead looks at evidence that does exist and then tries to interpret it in light of what else is known and assumed." Isn't this what I've been saying from the very beginning? "Archeology looks at evidence that does exist and then tries to interpret it in light of what else is known and assumed" All I asking for is something, anything, a shard of pottery, a trinket, a coin (ok I concede the argument that coins are a assumption, but a Ziff of silver, then what ever that is) Really any piece of archeological evidence that an archeologist could interpret in light of what else is know and conclude that it could be interpreted as a Nephite artifact. Archeology looks at evidence that does exist and to the best of my knowledge none of it supports a Nephite civilization...please correct me if I am wrong 0 Quote Quote In short, your demands for evidence are based upon suppositions that simply don't match the growing consensus amongst prehistorians (to use a more inclusive term) that material culture =/= ethnicity =/= descent (in its genealogical sense). So here we run off the rails again, you freely admit that archeology looks at evidence and then tries to interpret it...and when I ask for evidence that call is framed as not matching the growing consensus among prehistorians. Are Archeology interpretations based on evidence or not? I say Yes, The reason that Archeology has yet (to the best of my knowledge) failed to interpret any evidence as coming from a Nephite civilization is that archeologist have yet to find any evidence for a Nephite civilization. Now having said that...LDS apologist can claim that all of the pre-Columbian archeology discover is evidence of a Nephite society and has merely been mislabel as Aztec, Olmec and Mayan. All I'm asking is upon what "Evidence" other than faith in the Book of Mormon is such an unsupported claim made? A shard? Nope. An artifact? Nope. A trinket? Nope. We draw archeology conclusions from the evidence we find through archeology. Even a claim that the archeology discoverers attributed to the Aztec, Olmec and Mayan civilization have been miss labeled as such, that the museums of the world are in fact filled with Nephite and Jaradite relics....needs some kind of archeological evidential support to make such a fanciful claim. I'm even willing to make that step to your position but show me the evidence that you use to take that step to conclude that the the museums of the world have mislabeled Nephite artifacts incorrectly...other than a book written by Joseph Smith....but if that is the evidence...then OK...admit it and lets move on. Edited January 22, 2016 by Johnnie Cake
Johnnie Cake Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 10 hours ago, volgadon said: Now go and revisit your original claim about pottery shards and let me know if it should be taken seriously. Its as if we are talking over each other... Unless you are suggesting that Nephite archeological evidence is exactly the same as Olmec, Mayan and Aztec archeological evidence...and indistinguishable from each other. But nothing in the Book of Mormon suggests the 1,000 year Christian Nephites cooped the pagan cultures of these societies.
thesometimesaint Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 We don't know what a specifically Nephite artifact would look like. IE: A shepherds crook was a common tool though out the middle east. Is it reflective of Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc., etc., etc.? 1
Johnnie Cake Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 4 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Nope, but I strongly suspect they're hiding in an undisclosed location with all of the archaeological evidence for the presence of the Hebrew slaves in Egypt and for the Exodus. To be consistent...don't think those claimed events took place either...just part of the early Israelite nation's mythology along with Jonah and the whale, Jericho's walls tumbling due to horns being blown, the Sun standing still in the sky so that Israel can fight on, etc etc etc 1
Gray Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 8 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: We don't know what a specifically Nephite artifact would look like. IE: A shepherds crook was a common tool though out the middle east. Is it reflective of Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc., etc., etc.? Sometimes artifacts CAN be difficult to distinguish. My understanding is that early Hebrew dwellings are difficult to distinguish from Canaanite dwellings, as the Hebrews are a branch of the Canaanites. 1
Kevin Christensen Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 I like to start with Brant's "A Social History of the Early Nephites." http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/fair-conferences/2001-fair-conference/2001-a-social-history-of-the-early-nephites It stands as a valuable corrective to the sort of spectacle we got from Coe and Dehlin, where they are looking for things that the Book of Mormon never mentions, and have not kept up with the state of the art. If you look at Mesoamerica for distinctive Nephite artifacts, it helps to consider whether you are more likely to find a horse bone, as if horses are typically buried where archeologists tend to dig, or a river. http://www.fairmormon.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/2008-Larry-Poulsen.pdf Is it easier to find a pot engraved with the inner spiritual life of the potter, or geography and civilization? Should we start looking for little things that are hard to find, or big things that we ought not overlook? http://publications.mi.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1383&index=6 And, of course, I remain fond of these interesting Mesoamerican artifacts, as compared to the Anthon transcript: http://www.shields-research.org/General/SEHA/SEHA_Newsletter_122-2.PDF FWIW Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA 3
Johnnie Cake Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) 6 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: We don't know what a specifically Nephite artifact would look like. IE: A shepherds crook was a common tool though out the middle east. Is it reflective of Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc., etc., etc.? Fair enough. If the standard go to argument for the non-existence of Nephite evidence is that they somehow abandoned their Israelite culture completely, abandoned everything that could be used to identify the unique identifiable characteristics of a Jerusalem descended people...then just say that....and lets move on. The official position of The LDS Amateur Apologetics Society is that the Nephite nation abandoned all uniquely identifiable characteristics of their Israelite roots and adopted every single identifiable aspect of the native populations with which they merged upon their arrival in the America's thus making a Nephite artifact undistinguishable from a Mayan, Aztec and Olmec artifact. Therefore no one should ever expect to find, discover or unearth any artifact with uniquely Nephite characteristics because such an artifact does not exist nor should anyone expect to find such an artifact. Further more, anyone interested in seeing a Nephite artifact should merely attend their local museum where they will find a myriad of mislabeled artifacts that have been wrongly attributed to the Aztec, Mayan and Olmec civilizations and should have rightly been attributed to the mighty Nephite nation. Signed ____________________________ Problem solved, end of discussion. Edited January 22, 2016 by Johnnie Cake
CA Steve Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 Couldn't this same defense be used to claim the ancestors of the vikings are the lost ten tribes? I mean, without knowing what a lost ten tribes artifact looks like maybe all those viking artifacts are really artifacts from descendants of the lost ten tribes. 1
thesometimesaint Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 36 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Fair enough. If the standard go to argument for the non-existence of Nephite evidence is that they somehow abandoned their Israelite culture completely, abandoned everything that could be used to identify the unique identifiable characteristics of a Jerusalem descended people...then just say that....and lets move on. The official position of The LDS Amateur Apologetics Society is that the Nephite nation abandoned all uniquely identifiable characteristics of their Israelite roots and adopted every single identifiable aspect of the native populations with which they merged upon their arrival in the America's thus making a Nephite artifact undistinguishable from a Mayan, Aztec and Olmec artifact. Therefore no one should ever expect to find, discover or unearth any artifact with uniquely Nephite characteristics because such an artifact does not exist nor should anyone expect to find such an artifact. Further anyone seeking a Nephite artifact should merely attend their local museum where they will find a myriad of mislabeled artifacts that have been wrongly attributed to the Aztec, Mayan and Olmec civilizations and should have been attributed to the mighty Nephite nation. Signed ____________________________ Problem solved, end of discussion. Not knowing something is not the same thing as there is not something. We don't know if life exists outside our earth. We don't even know what it would look it. But that doesn't mean there isn't any. IE; There maybe life on Europa, or what it may look like. We just have to find evidence for it. 1
volgadon Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said: To be consistent...don't think those claimed events took place either...just part of the early Israelite nation's mythology along with Jonah and the whale, Jericho's walls tumbling due to horns being blown, the Sun standing still in the sky so that Israel can fight on, etc etc etc You are intellectualy honest here, Gervin, though, is an evangelical with a double standard.
volgadon Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said: Fair enough. If the standard go to argument for the non-existence of Nephite evidence is that they somehow abandoned their Israelite culture completely, abandoned everything that could be used to identify the unique identifiable characteristics of a Jerusalem descended people...then just say that....and lets move on. What are the "unique identifiable characteristics of a Jerusalem descended people?" 2
stemelbow Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 The book is interesting (at least to some extent). The history of say, Mesoamerica, is interesting (at least to some extent). The attempts to tie the two together by Sorensen and Gardner I find pretty interesting as well. But in the end, when we get a challenge of showing one piece of whatever to demonstrate the story from the Book is authentic, we're left challenging the request (what is expected?) So either we don't know quite as much as we think we do when we talk about defining ancient peoples or cultures, the book's story is not representative of any actual history, or a combination of the two. Not sure there's much more to conclude, a combination of the two has to be it for me, at this point.
volgadon Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: Its as if we are talking over each other... Unless you are suggesting that Nephite archeological evidence is exactly the same as Olmec, Mayan and Aztec archeological evidence...and indistinguishable from each other. But nothing in the Book of Mormon suggests the 1,000 year Christian Nephites cooped the pagan cultures of these societies. See, this is why I think that you don't entirely understand the nature of archaeology. What I am suggesting is that archaeological data do not interpret themselves, and that Nephite artefacts would not be dramatically and conclusively distinct from the surrounding material culture. We do not have the necessary information needed to interpret differences. I am not saying that Olmec artefact = Nephite artefact. I am saying that we currently have now way of telling a Nephite artefact apart from an Olmec one. Why should a small families of Israelites/Jews adopt the surrounding material culture? They did so.wherever they lived. Besides, what is inherently pagan or Christian about a simple day-to-day clay water pot? 2
Johnnie Cake Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) 36 minutes ago, volgadon said: See, this is why I think that you don't entirely understand the nature of archaeology. What I am suggesting is that archaeological data do not interpret themselves, and that Nephite artefacts would not be dramatically and conclusively distinct from the surrounding material culture. We do not have the necessary information needed to interpret differences. I am not saying that Olmec artefact = Nephite artefact. I am saying that we currently have now way of telling a Nephite artefact apart from an Olmec one. Why should a small families of Israelites/Jews adopt the surrounding material culture? They did so.wherever they lived. Besides, what is inherently pagan or Christian about a simple day-to-day clay water pot? I sincerely appreciate your patience with me...as I try wrapping my head around your thought processes. As I attempt to do so may I kindly ask...how exactly do archeologist distinguish between an Aztec and an Olmec artifact? Or a Mayan from an Inca artifact if they are capable of making these distinctions (assuming that they can) wouldn't they also be able to distinguish between the unique old world Nephite artifacts...unless they are materiality the same with no variation...and if that is your claim...how exactly do you explain this compete collapse of old world characteristic in Nephite society...despite the BoM claims that they maintained the unique characteristics of a vibrant Judo-Christian society? I really don't mean to keep coming back to this...but...unless you are claiming a complete abandonment by Nephite society of their claimed ancestral homeland...what exactly are you claiming? Don't archeologist distinguish between cultures every day? If so why can't they distinguish between Ancient American and the claimed Nephite migration sorry just read this: Quote Nephite artefacts would not be dramatically and conclusively distinct from the surrounding material culture. Ok so your position is that the Nephites abandoned their technologies and adopted those of the people they merged with, over running their culture with Judo-Christianity yet still maintained a pagan worldview in that culture as expressed in their art, pottery, stonework and artifacts? My Head is hurting!!! And I'm the one that doesn't entirely understand the nature of archaeology??? Edited January 22, 2016 by Johnnie Cake
stemelbow Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 Okay so 50 some odd people land their ship on the shore. some small communities inhabit the adjacent area. Somehow those 50 convince many from the small communities to join them. The original crew of 50 have a division in to two groups. Those that joined pick sides as well. I believe it's possible the groups had to start trading with others in the area, including Maya, afterall not too many ears after their stay they are chided for being proud of their personal moneys and fancy clothes. So, what cultural influences are driving them some 50-70 years after they land? it seems obvious the outside culture would have to be a big part of it. Think 300 years later. Though they or some held on to Jewish religion, their culture and perhaps way of viewing things might not be so heavily influenced by the old world. It seems to make sense, that if Lehi and his family came, there were others. And if others, the others were more populous than the small family group. 2
Johnnie Cake Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said: Not knowing something is not the same thing as there is not something. We don't know if life exists outside our earth. We don't even know what it would look it. But that doesn't mean there isn't any. IE; There maybe life on Europa, or what it may look like. We just have to find evidence for it. I completely agree with this assessment. And until we have verified Life on some exoplanet we won't "know". But we do "Know" what life needs to exist as far as it exist on earth, we know the parameters needed for life and the conditions for life (at least for those on earth) allowing that life on some other planet may exist outside of earthly parameters...but given what we do know....we know what to look for, those needed requisite parameters needed before we would ever consider to search for life on an exoplanet. Isn't that same thought process valid for a search for Nephite existence in the new world? Don't we know the parameters that a 600 BC Israelite colony should possess? Certainly the book itself offers clues to some of these, the animals, the food stuffs, the culture and technologies held by middle eastern cultures of their day. they had the wheel, they had fire making capabilities, they understood metallurgy, ship buiding technology, tools unique to the middle east etc...aren't these the things that might be the Black Swans in an central American archeological dig? The book makes these clear what to look for (although apologist like to dismiss the book when it doesn't comport with reality)
ERayR Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 3 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: Its as if we are talking over each other... Unless you are suggesting that Nephite archeological evidence is exactly the same as Olmec, Mayan and Aztec archeological evidence...and indistinguishable from each other. But nothing in the Book of Mormon suggests the 1,000 year Christian Nephites cooped the pagan cultures of these societies. That is a very probable possibility. A small contingent living among a larger civilization.
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