Article claiming possibly Lehi's family never came to America?

[volgadon]

1 minute ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Are you suggesting that an archeologist schooled in ancient Italian peninsula archeology can't distinguish between Roman pottery and the Etruscan & Greek pottery that influenced it?  I want to make certain that I'm understanding your point. Because if so ...then I do find that claim bizarre

Not the same thing as claiming that Romans made Roman pottery because they were Roman. An archaeologist specialising in the Italian peninsula would tell you that the Etruscans, for example, imitated and imported a substantial quantity of various Greek types of pottery. Ceramics is really not as conclusive a body of evidence as you think. Sorry, your concept of ceramic nationalism is still bizarre.

[Avatar4321]

On 1/16/2016 at 1:07 AM, sunstoned said:

Robert, can you name one scholar who has spent a few years at a local college or university learning about these things who supports the Book of Mormon paradigm?  Of course I am talking about an impartial scholar.  Not some BYU/church person who's livelihood is tied directly to what he/she says about the Book of Mormon.  

Is there any non-LDS scholar who supports the  Book of Mormon narrative?  No there is not.  Not one.  There are more people who believe in flying saucers and alien abductions than believe in the BofM. If you want to believe the BofM, that is fine.  I support this.  I was a believer once, for almost 30 years I was a believer.  So I know where you are coming from.  But don't pretend that there is any scholarly evidence supporting the BofM.  There is not.

 

The problem with that argument is if a non lds scholar supported the Book of Mormon narrative, it would be unlikely that he would remain non lds, thus you would disqualify his analysis.

[bcuzbcuz]

12 hours ago, volgadon said:

how the hell is a pottery shard meant to express concepts such as kings and judges?

A pottery shard? Probably not at all. But societies that leave impressions, leave millions of pottery shards. Some are simply a single piece from a now lost oil lamp, or household pottery. But the Greeks in Italy, for example, left millions of pottery shards that have been puzzled together to provide thousands of complete vases, oil lamps, amphoras, cups, and plates. You can find excellent examples of all of these at Wikipedia: Types of Greek Vase shapes. There are a dozen museums around Italy, with each one having their own collections of millions of shards. 

Museums throughout Mexico, Central America, and South America also have their collections of millions and millions of shards. I was most recently in the Museo de Chileno de Arte Precolombino in Santiago, Chile. The museum has millions of shards in their basement, most of which will never be viewed by the public. But their complete examples range from simple lamps to magnificient statues of gods and spirits. I suggest you do a quick Google search and have a look.

What do these exhibits have to do with your point? Real societies leave millions and millions of shards.

The challenge is to find, in any of these many museums, one (1) single piece of pottery that displays a representation of kings and judges (or whatever else there be) information about Nephites, Jaredites or Lamanites or peoples of the BofM. Good luck.

 

[thesometimesaint]

What would a Nephite King or Judge look like that would separate them out from the larger culture?

[volgadon]

10 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

A pottery shard? Probably not at all. But societies that leave impressions, leave millions of pottery shards. Some are simply a single piece from a now lost oil lamp, or household pottery. But the Greeks in Italy, for example, left millions of pottery shards that have been puzzled together to provide thousands of complete vases, oil lamps, amphoras, cups, and plates. You can find excellent examples of all of these at Wikipedia: Types of Greek Vase shapes. There are a dozen museums around Italy, with each one having their own collections of millions of shards. 

Museums throughout Mexico, Central America, and South America also have their collections of millions and millions of shards. I was most recently in the Museo de Chileno de Arte Precolombino in Santiago, Chile. The museum has millions of shards in their basement, most of which will never be viewed by the public. But their complete examples range from simple lamps to magnificient statues of gods and spirits. I suggest you do a quick Google search and have a look.

What do these exhibits have to do with your point? Real societies leave millions and millions of shards.

The challenge is to find, in any of these many museums, one (1) single piece of pottery that displays a representation of kings and judges (or whatever else there be) information about Nephites, Jaredites or Lamanites or peoples of the BofM. Good luck.

 

How would one identify a previously unknown civilization from pottery shards?

[Gray]

35 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

The problem with that argument is if a non lds scholar supported the Book of Mormon narrative, it would be unlikely that he would remain non lds, thus you would disqualify his analysis.

I don't think it holds true that finding evidence of a historical Book of Mormon would lead someone to necessarily convert to the modern-day LDS church, any more than evidence for a historical Bible leads people to convert to Catholicism.

In any case, I've never heard of a non-LDS archaeologist converting to Mormonism on the strength of archaeological discoveries related to the BOM. 

[bcuzbcuz]

53 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

What would a Nephite King or Judge look like that would separate them out from the larger culture?

We'll know that when something is found that doesn't fit within the already defined cultures and to which a scholar is willing to put his name on as defined within cultures of the BofM. So far not a single shard has qualified.

[volgadon]

9 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

We'll know that when something is found that doesn't fit within the already defined cultures and to which a scholar is willing to put his name on as defined within cultures of the BofM. So far not a single shard has qualified.

You have yet to explain why it is reasonable that a pottery shard should reflect things like kingship and judges.

[Johnnie Cake]

5 hours ago, Gray said:

The problem is there is nothing to indicate the presence of a civilization that originated from the near east in the ancient Americas, at any level. What would Nephite pottery look like? Who knows. But there is no evidence that Nephites or any other Hebrew transplants arrived in the Americas before Columbus. We can theorize that the Nephites blended in so well with the Maya that their existence was undetectable, but that doesn't get us any closer to establishing that they actually existed. 

And of course their existence has nothing really to do with the validity of the BOM as scripture. 

I think that this is the glaring problem with Nephite Civilization claims...

Quote

there is no presence of a civilization that originated from the near east in the ancient Americas, at any level

 

[Johnnie Cake]

2 hours ago, volgadon said:

Not the same thing as claiming that Romans made Roman pottery because they were Roman. An archaeologist specialising in the Italian peninsula would tell you that the Etruscans, for example, imitated and imported a substantial quantity of various Greek types of pottery. Ceramics is really not as conclusive a body of evidence as you think. Sorry, your concept of ceramic nationalism is still bizarre.

Because you say so... well your word has always been enough for me....

[thesometimesaint]

Lots of things "Don't fit" an already defined culture. I have a small ceramic model of the horse my mom rode as a child. Say a thousand years from now a archaeologist digs up that ceramic model. If he didn't know the context of the larger culture would he be justified in saying I worshiped a horse?

[Johnnie Cake]

1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said:

What would a Nephite King or Judge look like that would separate them out from the larger culture?

My point was to use a subject found in the BoM like kings and judges...but the point would apply to any unique subject found in the BoM...really any unique subject matter would suffice...that's why I refer to a pottery shard.  Really all any of we former believers are asking for is a single Nephite archeological remnant anything that one would expect to find from a civilization that really existed 

[thesometimesaint]

Did the ancient city of Troy exist before it was found?

[Johnnie Cake]

12 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Lots of things "Don't fit" an already defined culture. I have a small ceramic model of the horse my mom rode as a child. Say a thousand years from now a archaeologist digs up that ceramic model. If he didn't know the context of the larger culture would he be justified in saying I worshiped a horse?

I understand the need to set the bar so high that it is impossible to reach...but really that is unnecessary...all any of we former believers are asking for is a simple piece of evidence for their existence that is outside of the pages of the BoM...something, anything.  Since the days of my youth, the ground upon which the once mighty Nephite civilization stood on has shrunk from encompassing the entirety of both North and South America and the islands of the Pacific down to an unknown square inch of terra firma in some still unknown piece of forgotten jungle in some obscure corner of central America

Edited January 21, 2016 by Johnnie Cake

[Johnnie Cake]

3 hours ago, volgadon said:

Where in England, how long ago, and what aspects of their material culture have you preserved? Are they all from England, are any of them immigrants?

Your point?  I provided answers to your inquirey

[thesometimesaint]

8 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I understand the need to set the bar so high that it is impossible to reach...but really that is unnecessary...all any of we former believers are asking for is a simple piece of evidence for their existence that is outside of the pages of the BoM...something, anything.  Since the days of my youth, the ground upon which the once mighty Nephite civilization stood on has shrunk from encompassing the entirety of both North and South America and the islands of the Pacific down to an unknown square inch of terra firma in some still unknown piece of forgotten jungle in some obscure corner of central America

I've been a member for going on 44 years. I've never believed the Nephite's lands were hemispheric. I am sorry that you have abandoned the faith over such a trivial matter. The Bible has Caesar Augustus taxing the whole earth. I seriously doubt that he did. I still believe in Jesus. The question still remains did ancient Troy exist before it was found?

[volgadon]

31 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Because you say so... well your word has always been enough for me....

https://books.google.com/books?id=IQ6sk8NFsSUC&pg=PA139&dq=etruscan+pottery+Greek&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiIhvzBu7vKAhVQ_WMKHQnTBM4Q6AEIIjAD#v=onepage&q=etruscan%20pottery%20Greek&f=false

[Johnnie Cake]

9 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Did the ancient city of Troy exist before it was found?

Excellent question and I applaud your logic.  Yes it did, has did Jericho...both of which have only in recent history been discovered.  Suggesting that the famed city of Zarahemla is just sitting out there awaiting discovery...which it could be. 

Troy had been rumored to exist and even mentioned in Homer's Odyssey...yet up until 1870 Troy remained a fable.  But unlike the Nephites, the civilization that Troy was claimed to be part of has never been in question and left all kinds of evidence of their existence.

[Avatar4321]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

I don't think it holds true that finding evidence of a historical Book of Mormon would lead someone to necessarily convert to the modern-day LDS church, any more than evidence for a historical Bible leads people to convert to Catholicism.

In any case, I've never heard of a non-LDS archaeologist converting to Mormonism on the strength of archaeological discoveries related to the BOM. 

so you're saying an intelligent man who becomes convinced that the historical setting of the Book of Mormon is completely accurate is going to ignore the nature of the book, it's narrative, and the means by which it came about?

I cannot see how anyone finding the Book of Mormon to be factually true could ignore that and remain an honest person or continue to claim any academic authority.

[Avatar4321]

39 minutes ago, volgadon said:

You have yet to explain why it is reasonable that a pottery shard should reflect things like kingship and judges.

dont you have the president and the supreme court on every bowl and cup you use?

imagine what future societies would conclude from our pottery.

[Jeanne]

Does anyone have a real good theory as to why the Lord would not leave evidence of a Nephite/Lamanite nation should that be why we have not found a whole lot?

[Avatar4321]

24 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I understand the need to set the bar so high that it is impossible to reach...but really that is unnecessary...all any of we former believers are asking for is a simple piece of evidence for their existence that is outside of the pages of the BoM...something, anything.  Since the days of my youth, the ground upon which the once mighty Nephite civilization stood on has shrunk from encompassing the entirety of both North and South America and the islands of the Pacific down to an unknown square inch of terra firma in some still unknown piece of forgotten jungle in some obscure corner of central America

then why ignore the evidence we do have? Particularly nhm and bountiful.

why pretend no evidence exists at all? Why limit it to the evidence to what you can't even define?

[VideoGameJunkie]

7 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Does anyone have a real good theory as to why the Lord would not leave evidence of a Nephite/Lamanite nation should that be why we have not found a whole lot?

That's a question I've had too. I wonder if God purposely hides it from us.

[Johnnie Cake]

6 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

then why ignore the evidence we do have? Particularly nhm and bountiful.

why pretend no evidence exists at all? Why limit it to the evidence to what you can't even define?

Both of those supposed BoM evidences have been completely debunked and discredited as far as I'm concerned...but its ok if you still value them to support your belief

[Zakuska]

On 1/16/2016 at 0:07 AM, sunstoned said:

Robert, can you name one scholar who has spent a few years at a local college or university learning about these things who supports the Book of Mormon paradigm?  Of course I am talking about an impartial scholar.  Not some BYU/church person who's livelihood is tied directly to what he/she says about the Book of Mormon.  

Is there any non-LDS scholar who supports the  Book of Mormon narrative?  No there is not.  Not one.  There are more people who believe in flying saucers and alien abductions than believe in the BofM. If you want to believe the BofM, that is fine.  I support this.  I was a believer once, for almost 30 years I was a believer.  So I know where you are coming from.  But don't pretend that there is any scholarly evidence supporting the BofM.  There is not.

 

Margaret Barker would disagree.

http://www.joehunt.org/joseph-smith-margaret-barker-talk.html

But a text discovered in Egypt in 1945 described the tree as beautiful, fiery, and with fruits like white grapes. I don’t know of any other source which describes the fruit as white grapes, so you can imagine my surprise when I read the account of Lehi’s vision of the tree whose white fruits made one happy; and the interpretation of the vision, that the virgin in Nazareth was the mother of the Son of God after the manner of the flesh.

This is the Heavenly Mother (represented by the Tree of Life), and then Mary and her son on the earth. This revelation to Joseph Smith was the exact ancient Wisdom symbolism, intact, and almost certainly as it was known in 600 BCE.