Two New Ensign Articles Affirming Marriage Between A Man And A Woman

[stemelbow]

Can you provide a single example of an individual or group who were blessed or sustained in not following a prophet or dismissing a prophet's teaching(s) in the scriptures?

Why must we be limited to scripture? Are we to assume all our lessons are to be found in scripture? Could it be that many, in the course of human history were blessed for not following a prophet, but the scriptures don't record it?

While the scriptures have use, I don't think it wise to treat them as our only source, setting all of our precedence.

[DJBrown]

Why must we be limited to scripture? Are we to assume all our lessons are to be found in scripture? Could it be that many, in the course of human history were blessed for not following a prophet, but the scriptures don't record it?

While the scriptures have use, I don't think it wise to treat them as our only source, setting all of our precedence.

 

So, ultimately, the scriptures are not completely reliable?  And neither are the prophets?

 

Do you see the danger here?

 

Can you provide an example from our own history of a group of people that were blessed for not following the prophet?

[Scott Lloyd]

Why must we be limited to scripture? Are we to assume all our lessons are to be found in scripture? Could it be that many, in the course of human history were blessed for not following a prophet, but the scriptures don't record it?

While the scriptures have use, I don't think it wise to treat them as our only source, setting all of our precedence.

Then, speaking for myself and not DJBrown, I will broaden the question to include any teachings or guidance from the united voice of the prophets and apostles in this gospel dispensation. Can you name any instance where someone was blessed for disregarding such teaching or guidance?

[HappyJackWagon]

Can you provide a single example of an individual or group who were blessed or sustained in not following a prophet or dismissing a prophet's teaching(s) in the scriptures?

 

Obedience to a prophet, even when he is wrong, is no virtue. Everyone that recognizes this and behaves according to the dictates of their own conscience, even if that is in opposition with a false doctrine taught by a prophet, is blessed.

 

Those who rejected violent calls to avenge the death of Joseph were blessed. Those who rejected the doctrine of Blood Atonement and orders to carry it out, were blessed. Those who rejected racist teachings were blessed. Those who rejected the Adam/God Doctrine were blessed. Those who rejected polygamy were blessed.

[stemelbow]

So, ultimately, the scriptures are not completely reliable?  And neither are the prophets?

Of course they are not.

 

Do you see the danger here?

No. that someone assumes there's danger in accepting that no one is perfect and the scriptures obviously have error is the problem I think needs to be addressed. I don't see a problem in individuals recognizing there are errors when they are pointed out - in scripture or with the past leaders view of black people.

 

Can you provide an example from our own history of a group of people that were blessed for not following the prophet?

Define "following the prophet"? I think billions fo people have been blessed and have done so by not following the prophet. And whose seeking personal blessings?

[stemelbow]

Then, speaking for myself and not DJBrown, I will broaden the question to include any teachings or guidance from the united voice of the prophets and apostles in this gospel dispensation. Can you name any instance where someone was blessed for disregarding such teaching or guidance?

Yes. many people in the world were clearly blessed, even though they simply rejected the notion that black people had a divine curse, or less valiant in the pre-mortal world and all that. Today there are many people blessed even if they don't abide the law of chastity, for instance.

[HappyJackWagon]

Why must we be limited to scripture? Are we to assume all our lessons are to be found in scripture? Could it be that many, in the course of human history were blessed for not following a prophet, but the scriptures don't record it?

While the scriptures have use, I don't think it wise to treat them as our only source, setting all of our precedence.

I'll add that it would be very strange to find a prophet writing about someone being blessed for disobeying the prophet.

 

For that matter, how much of our scriptures were actually written by a prophet? Restoration scriptures are claimed to be written by prophets but the Bible? It would be very rare to have a prophet writing his own story. The closest we have in the bible is the letters of Paul and Peter.

[DJBrown]

I'll add that it would be very strange to find a prophet writing about someone being blessed for disobeying the prophet.

 

For that matter, how much of our scriptures were actually written by a prophet? Restoration scriptures are claimed to be written by prophets but the Bible? It would be very rare to have a prophet writing his own story. The closest we have in the bible is the letters of Paul and Peter.

 

So ultimately, the gospel is pretty much doing what you feel is right?  No "standard" by which to concretely judge?  

 

Everybody thinks in their 'heart of hearts'- God knows me.  He knows my heart.  And thereby they justify their actions.  What tyrant in history felt really bad about his or her actions?  

 

Seems like a very dangerous position when considering scripture speaking of the last days when men will imagine a God of their own and people becoming gods unto themselves.  Maybe I am making a leap here, but the door is opened for it with doubt in prophets and scripture.

[Scott Lloyd]

Yes. many people in the world were clearly blessed, even though they simply rejected the notion that black people had a divine curse, or less valiant in the pre-mortal world and all that. Today there are many people blessed even if they don't abide the law of chastity, for instance.

I think the question is whether there is a direct causal relationship between their overt rejection of prophetic teaching and their benefiting thereby.

 

I agree upon reflection the question is problematic. For example, many people who don't pay tithing and who pretty much reject God seem to prosper at least temporarily in a material sense.

 

But there is that passage of scripture in Malachi, the one that immediately follows the oft quoted passage on tithing that begins, "Will a man rob God?":

 

Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the Lord of hosts?

 

And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.

 

Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another; and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.

 

And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

Then

Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

Malachi 3:14-18

 

In other words, the blessings that come from righteousness, faithfulness, obedience and hearkening to the words of the prophets may not be fully realized until the day when the Lord "make(s) up (His) jewels." It may not be until that day when the contrast is clearly discernible between the reward that comes to "him that serveth God" and the consequences that befall "him that serveth him not."

Edited September 2, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[HappyJackWagon]

So ultimately, the gospel is pretty much doing what you feel is right?  No "standard" by which to concretely judge?  

 

Everybody thinks in their 'heart of hearts'- God knows me.  He knows my heart.  And thereby they justify their actions.  What tyrant in history felt really bad about his or her actions?  

 

Seems like a very dangerous position when considering scripture speaking of the last days when men will imagine a God of their own and people becoming gods unto themselves.  Maybe I am making a leap here, but the door is opened for it with doubt in prophets and scripture.

The danger exists in trusting the judgement of another person above our own. I think it would be better to think of a prophet as a counselor. He can give advice, sound counsel etc, and when he does it would be wise for us to accept that. If he gives bad counsel or advice it would be wise to reject it. How do I know what is right? All I can rely on is my own judgement; personal knowledge through study, inspiration, etc.  At least then, when I get to judgement and God asks me "Why did you do or believe XXX?" My answer will be, "Because I believed it was right," NOT "Because someone told me to." I don't believe the "prophet made me do it" defense won't work. The mistakes I make will be my own.

[stemelbow]

So ultimately, the gospel is pretty much doing what you feel is right?  No "standard" by which to concretely judge?

Concretely judging stuff really isn't our place. But we do our best with the Spirit, scripture, prophetic leadership helping us a long, at least, that's how I see it.

 

Everybody thinks in their 'heart of hearts'- God knows me.  He knows my heart.  And thereby they justify their actions.  What tyrant in history felt really bad about his or her actions?

Can't tell, are you suggesting I'm like unto a tyrant? It's true many people do bad things and feel bad about it. But that doesn't mean we also can't be guided internally.

 

Seems like a very dangerous position when considering scripture speaking of the last days when men will imagine a God of their own and people becoming gods unto themselves.  Maybe I am making a leap here, but the door is opened for it with doubt in prophets and scripture.

I think I get where you are coming from. But I would suggest that accepting prophets and scripture are fallible is not to be feared. it is reality. That doesn't mean people just make up what is good. God guides people. That's why most of humanity understands that loving relationships are important, that murder is bad, that rape is awful, and all that. You act as though without strictly following scripture and prophets we'll surely be hellish monsters. Well, hellish monsters are exceedingly rare, almost as rare as following prophets and scripture.

[Buckeye]

 

Can you provide a single example of an individual or group who were blessed or sustained in not following a prophet or dismissing a prophet's teaching(s) in the scriptures?

 

My answer depends on whether you count the preserving of life as a "blessing." If so, then consider the saints' decision whether to stay at Winter Quarters in 1856. Levi Savage told the group that it was too late to leave; they would be overtaken by winter if they did so. Apostle (and therefore prophet) Franklin Richards promised the group that they would not be set upon by winter. Specifically he said:

 

 

 

Though it might storm on the right hand and on the left, yet the storms should not reach them. The Lord would keep the way open before them, and they should reach Zion in safety.

 

Some saints chose to stay in Winter Quarters despite the admonition of Elder Richards. Those who chose to follow him were known as the Willie and Martin handcart companies. We all know the story. The snows did come. His prophecy failed. The saints who listened to Savage instead of the prophet were spared the loss of limb and life.

 

Now, it is true that many who went through that experience counted it as a blessing. We have no standing to dispute their testimony. But it is equally true that many who disobeyed Elder Richards likewise counted their decision as a blessing. We also have no standing to dispute that testimony. So to answer your question, yes, there are examples where people disobey the prophet and lived to testify that their disobedience led to blessings.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Buckeye

[Scott Lloyd]

The danger exists in trusting the judgement of another person above our own. I think it would be better to think of a prophet as a counselor. He can give advice, sound counsel etc, and when he does it would be wise for us to accept that. If he gives bad counsel or advice it would be wise to reject it. How do I know what is right? All I can rely on is my own judgement; personal knowledge through study, inspiration, etc.  At least then, when I get to judgement and God asks me "Why did you do or believe XXX?" My answer will be, "Because I believed it was right," NOT "Because someone told me to." I don't believe the "prophet made me do it" defense won't work. The mistakes I make will be my own.

In your saying this, I perceive that you are not unlike the "Mormon gnostics" that Cassandra Hedelius spoke of at the recent FairMormon Conference:

 

In short, Mormon Gnostics emphasize personal spiritual effort and de-emphasize the role of the church in spiritual progression. This can lead them to conclude that they have learned a new scriptural interpretation, contrary to what church leaders have taught, or that they have discerned that church leaders and members have strayed, and God has called new leaders or revealed a new means of spiritual progress without prophets. Gnostics try to get at a supposed hidden, deeper truth that most members don’t find due to supposed faithlessness or lack of passion for spiritual things. Gnostics seek for what the scriptures “really” mean, or what prophets are “really” saying, or for teachings that were known a long time ago but aren’t part of modern mainstream belief, perhaps because they were unofficial and hence abandoned, or prophets revealed better understanding.

 

Part of the reason why Mormon Gnosticism is so persuasive to many members is that it’s easy to make a very persuasive-sounding case based on only half the truth. Just leave out the other half. We have plenty of scriptures and quotes from church leaders telling us to seek knowledge, seek more light, be spiritually self-reliant, don’t blindly follow prophets or other church leaders, seek spiritual gifts including revelation and prophecy, and seek higher spiritual experiences like the Second Comforter and having our calling and election made sure. By focusing on all that, a Mormon Gnostic can make the leap to the conclusion that the other half–church organization, priesthood hierarchy, priesthood keys–is unnecessary when one is sufficiently spiritually advanced. Some Mormon Gnostics make the leap even further, saying that the church is corrupt and has lost its authority.

 

You may not be a "prepper" or a food storage/tent city fanatic, but you seem to be emphasizing your own judgement as pre-emininet, even as you marginalize the role of prophets and apostles as spokesmen for God in guiding us.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[stemelbow]

I think the question is whether there is a direct causal relationship between their overt rejection of prophetic teaching and their benefiting thereby.

Why is that a question. The question was simply can someone be blessed even if he/she rejects prophetic guidance? Sure. It happens all the time. Must the rejection be tied to the blessing for this point to take effect? I dont' think so. I can be blessed even if I reject the Church's stance on gay marriage and homosexuality. How do I know that? Because, somehow I've rejected the stance and still have found some blessings in my life.

 

I agree upon reflection the question is problematic. For example, many people who don't pay tithing and who pretty much reject God seem to prosper at least temporarily in a material sense.

Tons of people dont' pay tithing and fail miserably in a material sense. Some people pay tithing and fail in a material sense.

 

But there is that passage of scripture in Malachi, the one that immediately follows the oft quoted passage on tithing that begins, "Will a man rob God?":

 

Malachi 3:14-18

 

In other words, the blessings that come from righteousness, faithfulness, obedience and hearkening to the words of the prophets may not be fully realized until the day when the Lord "make(s) up (His) jewels." It may not be until that day when the contrast is clearly discernible between the reward that comes to "him that serveth God" and the consequences that befall "him that serveth him not."

Ok, then. So the question of whether someone can be blessed even if he she rejects prophetic utterances, is left unanswerable, if blessings we receive can come whether we obey/heed or not. I guess we'll just have to wait until its all over to know for certainty. Makes ya wonder though...why the question to begin with? Seems kinda weird when you think about it.

[Russell C McGregor]

Not Racist?!   And there the Argument (Product of his environment) raises its head once again.

Oh, snap!

HappyJackWagon, the nefarious FARMS apologist!!

[stemelbow]

In your saying this, I perceive that you are not unlike the "Mormon gnostics" that Cassandra Hedelius spoke of at the recent FairMormon Conference:

 

You may not be a "prepper" or a food storage/tent city fanatic, but you seem to be emphasizing your own judgement as pre-emininet, even as you marginalize the role of prophets and apostles as spokesmen for God in guiding us.

So you conclude that about Happy "emphasizing your own judgment as pre-eminent"?

I admit while I see problems with the "Mormon gnostic" position she critiques, I aslo find her piece way over the top and the points of her condemnation often rather harmless.

[Russell C McGregor]

They 'may' receive a timely revelation (like in 1978) and turn over a long held position and announce

that 'God' accepts these types of marriages because they 'feel' the people were born that way and

that marriage is required for exaltation.  

 

Time will tell.

 

Regards,

Jim

Thank you for demonstrating that your "expertise" in Mormon things is negligible.

EV Protestants will surrender to the gay juggernaut before we do, and you can take that to the bank.

[HappyJackWagon]

In your saying this, I perceive that you are not unlike the "Mormon gnostics" that Cassandra Hedelius spoke of at the recent FairMormon Conference:

 

 

You may not be a "prepper" or a food storage/tent city fanatic, but you seem to be emphasizing your own judgement as pre-emininet, even as you marginalize the role of prophets and apostles as spokesmen for God in guiding us.

From the Cassandra quote-

 

Gnostics try to get at a supposed hidden, deeper truth that most members don’t find due to supposed faithlessness or lack of passion for spiritual things

That doesn't describe me at all. It's not a deeper truth and I don't suppose others are faithless or lacking for passion of spiritual things.

 

We all have to trust in our own judgement so I don't see how that is anything controversial. You may trust in your judgement that the prophet will never teach you or ask you to do any thing in error. And I may trust my judgement that prophets are good men who often give good counsel, but I should not hand over my agency to them and commit to be obedient to any thing they say. Your judgement maybe more broad, sweeping, all encompassing, whereas mine may be trusting that I will be able to make individual decisions each step of the way.

 

I don't feel I'm marginalizing prophets and apostles but merely removing them from the pedestal of perfection where I used to place them. I'm recognizing the reality that they are fallible men just like me. I will listen and if what they say is confirmed by the spirit I'll follow. But I'm not signing my agency over with a blank check of obedience.

[CV75]

Ok, then. So the question of whether someone can be blessed even if he she rejects prophetic utterances, is left unanswerable, if blessings we receive can come whether we obey/heed or not. I guess we'll just have to wait until its all over to know for certainty. Makes ya wonder though...why the question to begin with? Seems kinda weird when you think about it.

But wait! We don't have to wait! "There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated."

 

And it is possible that not all our so-called "blessings" come from God, depending on what we choose to call good or evil, light or darkness, sweet or bitter.

[CV75]

I will listen and if what they say is confirmed by the spirit I'll follow. But I'm not signing my agency over with a blank check of obedience.

Is this where the question is raised about what to do, or how to treat them or their teachings if the Spirit does not confirm? Or how to distinguish between the spirit of contention and righteous anger?

[KevinG]

The ban went a lot further than lineage. There is no single African lineage. Of course all of us have black ancestors, so the ban would have really restricted all of us if it had been implemented "correctly" 

 

That is not the case.  It was lineage, but it was so confusing in countries like Brazil the Patriarchs were asked to try to determine lineage.  You have dark skinned people with the priesthood and light skinned people without it before 1978.  My opinion is that was part of the reason we began to question the practice.

[Scott Lloyd]

Why is that a question. The question was simply can someone be blessed even if he/she rejects prophetic guidance? Sure. It happens all the time. Must the rejection be tied to the blessing for this point to take effect? I dont' think so. I can be blessed even if I reject the Church's stance on gay marriage and homosexuality. How do I know that? Because, somehow I've rejected the stance and still have found some blessings in my life.

 

Tons of people dont' pay tithing and fail miserably in a material sense. Some people pay tithing and fail in a material sense.

 

Ok, then. So the question of whether someone can be blessed even if he she rejects prophetic utterances, is left unanswerable, if blessings we receive can come whether we obey/heed or not. I guess we'll just have to wait until its all over to know for certainty. Makes ya wonder though...why the question to begin with? Seems kinda weird when you think about it.

One of the immediate blessings that come from faithfulness is spiritual assurance that eternal blessings will come when the Lord makes up his jewels (meaning his precious followers). That's the difference between those who cling to the iron rod and those who inhabit the great and spacious building.

[Gray]

And that group was a certainly family- or descendants of Aaron/Levi.  All others were forbidden.  How is that different than forbidding descendants of African ancestors from the Priesthood?

 

What would prevent an African from converting and marrying a Levite? Honest question, I don't know the answer. 

[KevinG]

So, ultimately, the scriptures are not completely reliable?  And neither are the prophets?

 

Do you see the danger here?

 

Can you provide an example from our own history of a group of people that were blessed for not following the prophet?

 

I see an equal danger in reading the scriptures and quoting the prophets without the guidance of the Holy Spirit.  Contention over fundamentalist and literalist teachings is something Joseph was instructed to avoid by the Lord.

[CV75]

That is not the case.  It was lineage, but it was so confusing in countries like Brazil the Patriarchs were asked to try to determine lineage.  You have dark skinned people with the priesthood and light skinned people without it before 1978.  My opinion is that was part of the reason we began to question the practice.

I'd say it was rather part of  the reason the leaders sought revelation / permission to change the practice.