boblloyd91 Posted August 16, 2015 Posted August 16, 2015 (edited) And this from the same source ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_Egyptian):You may want to look at the most recent article on the Mormon Interpreter, though it doesn't discuss the characters, it does discuss the idea of combining Egyptian and Hebrew writing during the time period of Nephi Edited August 16, 2015 by boblloyd91
ALarson Posted August 16, 2015 Author Posted August 16, 2015 You may want to look at the most recent article on the Mormon Interpreter, though it doesn't discuss the characters, it does discuss the idea of combining Egyptian and Hebrew writing during the time period of NephiThanks. Is this the one you're referring to? I'll take a look at it.http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/learning-nephis-language-creating-a-context-for-1-nephi-12/
hagoth7 Posted August 16, 2015 Posted August 16, 2015 (edited) Interesting. Anyone else feel the presence of the Spirit looking at the characters?I don't. But I'm intrigued that you do. Has anyone tried translating them since?There was a book that I saw in Deseret Book or Seagull Book maybe a decade ago about someone who thought he could translate the full set of characters in the Anthon Characters. Unfortunately, I don't recall the name of the book. Perhaps a search might bring it up, if there is still mention of it out there somewhere on the internet. Edited August 16, 2015 by hagoth7
hagoth7 Posted August 16, 2015 Posted August 16, 2015 (edited) Interesting. Anyone else feel the presence of the Spirit looking at the characters?Has anyone tried translating them since?Based on your input, later today, I'll share something about the characters that one or two here might find edifying. Edited August 16, 2015 by hagoth7
boblloyd91 Posted August 16, 2015 Posted August 16, 2015 Thanks. Is this the one you're referring to? I'll take a look at it.http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/learning-nephis-language-creating-a-context-for-1-nephi-12/That's the one
hagoth7 Posted August 17, 2015 Posted August 17, 2015 (edited) As promised earlier today, a few more thoughts for consideration about Nephite writing: Most are familiar with the Nephite characters in the larger document that for years was preserved by the David Whitmer family.(I may provide a link to that document later.) Critics of the Book of Mormon have recently claimed there is a striking similarity between several of the characters and a form of European shorthand known as Tironian script.(I may provide a link to a table later that shows side-by-side comparisons between the Anthon characters and Tironian script. Critics assert that those apparent similarities undermine the claims of Joseph Smith.)The critics assert that Joseph came across some of these characters during his early years, and copied them on the document later shown to Charles Anthon because at that time the characters were largely unknown to American scholars. It could be said, however, that the similarities are simply nothing more than coincidence, since there are more than 10,000 Tironian shorthand characters to choose from. Other than that option, there is a third option - the origin of Tironian script, and what it may say about the prophetic truth claims of the Nephite record. Tironian script traces back to its namesake, an ancient slave in Europe named Marcus Tullius Tiro, Tiro served Cicero, who is believed by most to have been the most influential senator, orator, and writer of Rome during the waning years of the Roman Republic, in the century before Christ. Tiro first appears on the Roman scene as a slave in Cicero's court in late 54 BC, was freed by Cicero shortly afterward, and continued to serve Cicero's household faithfully. As to the timing, it should be noted that Tiro was contemporary with Hagoth. Thus Tironian script was introduced into the Roman Empire during the time of Hagoth, and, according to LDS critics, resembles Nephite characters. (In this matter, we may thus owe a debt of gratitude to our critics for pointing out the similarities.) According to the records preserved by Tiro, Cicero's brother Quintus (a legionary commander assisting Julius Caesar in the conquest of northern Europe) promised to send Cicero needed slaves. Shortly after that, Tiro was mentioned for the first time as serving in Cicero's court. Thus Tiro was likely one of the tens of thousands of slaves captured in northern Europe during Caesar's conquest of northern Gaul (what is now known as northern France, Belgium, and the Netherlands). Even a classicist who is quite critical of LDS claims acknowledged that, based on the evidence provided in a recent discussion that: 1) it was reasonable to conclude that Quintus kept his promise to send slaves to Cicero, and 2) it was possible that Tiro was one of them (even though he asserted it to be more likely, in his opinion, that Tiro came from some other place, like Greece). Since that discussion, I've come across evidence contemporary with Tiro that strongly suggests Tiro was a novice regarding Greek culture, and additional evidence that Tiro instead knew at least as much about contemporary developments in northern Europe as Julius Caesar, who was still campaigning there. That evidence preserved (and later published) by Tiro himself thus suggests that Tiro's chain of custody traces back to Cicero's brother Quintus in northern Europe - shortly after the voyages of Hagoth's ships. This is a short response to those who claim that similarities between Tironian script and the Anthon Document characters somehow undermines the Book of Mormon and the prophetic mission of Joseph Smith.https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/22.17?lang=eng#16 If any are interested in further reading along those lines: http://candlestickstudio.com/files/Nephites.pdf Thoughts? Edited August 17, 2015 by hagoth7
Russell C McGregor Posted August 18, 2015 Posted August 18, 2015 And this from the same source ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_Egyptian): I love the way they describe propaganda pieces. "An early-twentieth-century scholar said that the 'Caractors' document looked more like 'deformed English.'" This is an example of Wikipedia editorial mangling. Charles A. Shook's Cumorah Revisited was a very typical anti-Mormon production of the time.
mfbukowski Posted August 18, 2015 Posted August 18, 2015 As promised earlier today, a few more thoughts for consideration about Nephite writing:Most are familiar with the Nephite characters in the larger document that for years was preserved by the David Whitmer family.(I may provide a link to that document later.)Critics of the Book of Mormon have recently claimed there is a striking similarity between several of the characters and a form of European shorthand known as Tironian script.(I may provide a link to a table later that shows side-by-side comparisons between the Anthon characters and Tironian script. Critics assert that those apparent similarities undermine the claims of Joseph Smith.)The critics assert that Joseph came across some of these characters during his early years, and copied them on the document later shown to Charles Anthon because at that time the characters were largely unknown to American scholars.It could be said, however, that the similarities are simply nothing more than coincidence, since there are more than 10,000 Tironian shorthand characters to choose from. Other than that option, there is a third option - the origin of Tironian script, and what it may say about the prophetic truth claims of the Nephite record. Tironian script traces back to its namesake, an ancient slave in Europe named Marcus Tullius Tiro, Tiro served Cicero, who is believed by most to have been the most influential senator, orator, and writer of Rome during the waning years of the Roman Republic, in the century before Christ. Tiro first appears on the Roman scene as a slave in Cicero's court in late 54 BC, was freed by Cicero shortly afterward, and continued to serve Cicero's household faithfully. As to the timing, it should be noted that Tiro was contemporary with Hagoth. Thus Tironian script was introduced into the Roman Empire during the time of Hagoth, and, according to LDS critics, resembles Nephite characters. (In this matter, we may thus owe a debt of gratitude to our critics for pointing out the similarities.)According to the records preserved by Tiro, Cicero's brother Quintus (a legionary commander assisting Julius Caesar in the conquest of northern Europe) promised to send Cicero needed slaves. Shortly after that, Tiro was mentioned for the first time as serving in Cicero's court. Thus Tiro was likely one of the tens of thousands of slaves captured in northern Europe during Caesar's conquest of northern Gaul (what is now known as northern France, Belgium, and the Netherlands). Even a classicist who is quite critical of LDS claims acknowledged that, based on the evidence provided in a recent discussion that: 1) it was reasonable to conclude that Quintus kept his promise to send slaves to Cicero, and 2) it was possible that Tiro was one of them (even though he asserted it to be more likely, in his opinion, that Tiro came from some other place, like Greece).Since that discussion, I've come across evidence contemporary with Tiro that strongly suggests Tiro was a novice regarding Greek culture, and additional evidence that Tiro instead knew at least as much about contemporary developments in northern Europe as Julius Caesar, who was still campaigning there. That evidence preserved (and later published) by Tiro himself thus suggests that Tiro's chain of custody traces back to Cicero's brother Quintus in northern Europe - shortly after the voyages of Hagoth's ships.This is a short response to those who claim that similarities between Tironian script and the Anthon Document characters somehow undermines the Book of Mormon and the prophetic mission of Joseph Smith.https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/22.17?lang=eng#16If any are interested in further reading along those lines: http://candlestickstudio.com/files/Nephites.pdfThoughts?So as I recall, one possibility is that Tiro was a Nephite? 1
hagoth7 Posted August 18, 2015 Posted August 18, 2015 (edited) So as I recall, one possibility is that Tiro was a Nephite?Yes, Freshly off the boat. The very name Tiro means newcomer or new recruit. Thank you for summing up. Edited August 18, 2015 by hagoth7
mfbukowski Posted August 18, 2015 Posted August 18, 2015 Yes, Freshly off the boat. The very name Tiro means newcomer or new recruit. Thank you for summing up.Very interesting idea! That is as plausible to me as any other of these "convergences" that we are seeing lately, and indeed this is a very strange world in which we live. If it is possible, it has probably happened, if not to Tiro then we have to admit the possibility that it might have happened with someone else. But it's pretty cool that you did all the work to track this down. There has to be at least a good historical novel in there somewhere!
mfbukowski Posted August 18, 2015 Posted August 18, 2015 Each life on earth is a bundle of possibilities and there have been billions of people who have lived on this planet wandering from here to there and bumping into each other. Who the heck knows what could have happened?
mfbukowski Posted August 18, 2015 Posted August 18, 2015 Yes, Freshly off the boat. The very name Tiro means newcomer or new recruit. Thank you for summing up.You know I have to apologize for the offhand way I have been thinking about this because I did not read the link to your paper detailing all this out. You have been too modest in putting your ideas out there I think. The idea that Joseph Smith might have been a Nephite is an amazing idea and that indeed many of us could be is also fascinating. Suddenly those Friberg painting almost make sense except for being from the wrong hemisphere! Details details! 1
hagoth7 Posted August 18, 2015 Posted August 18, 2015 (edited) ....There has to be at least a good historical novel in there somewhere!Actually, a few years back, my wife and I worked together to write the first short book in a fictional series that we planned, which we called the Hagoth chronicles. We had the first book posted online for awhile, which I'll be posting back online in the near future. The second one has been mostly mapped out, but not yet written (a lower priority among various projects). A few have read the first book and thought it was worthwhile. But I would imagine there are a number of good creative writers out there who could do much better with the material. Added: Here is the link to the first historical novel based on the research. Much of this non-fiction and fiction work, is based in part on a talk by Ezra Taft Benson years back, who yearned and encouraged us to make the Book of Mormon the epicenter of creative writing and artistic endeavors. I still remember the talk distinctly.... Edited August 18, 2015 by hagoth7 1
oneclimbs Posted August 18, 2015 Posted August 18, 2015 I posted something a while back about how Demotic was probably the Egyptian that Nephi used on the plates and was subsequently altered to meet the needs of the record keepers. I doubt they had much loyalty to the original Egyptian language and were more concerned with a type of writing that reflected their speech and could be used efficiently to etch into gold. http://oneclimbs.com/2014/03/30/the-3-candidates-for-nephis-egyptian-script/ I did find this very interesting document by Ariel L. Crowley that was printed in a 1942 edition of the improvement era. http://oneclimbs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/1942_02-IE.pdfI haven't seen much of this document elsewhere but I did some of my own research into the original documents and it is quite interesting how many parallels there are to the Anthon transcript characters. When Moroni said that "none other people knoweth our language" I don't think that does much to foster any hope that we can easily figure things out, but it would be interesting to explore the translation of some of these characters that seem so similar to known Demotic script. The Anthon characters, if translated, might not reveal a coherent text because Joseph might not have copied them character by character from the plates, he could have just copied some of the more interesting characters and scribbled them down randomly. That said, I did find an interesting parallel in an obscure book called "The Name of God" by James Harris who is an expert in the Old Negev alphabet that has been found in the middle east and even in other continents. He has discovered Old Negev ligatures in the American Southwest and has translated entire sentences of even up to 50 words in some cases and they form coherent ideas. I did find two characters El and Yah in his book side by side that match two characters in the Anthon transcript and in both cases they are side by side, El (God) Yah (Jehovah). What are the odds that two characters from the Anthon transcript match two petroglyphs on a rock in the middle east? The link is below, you have to scroll to the bottom of the article: http://oneclimbs.com/2014/04/06/yah-of-the-negev-the-american-southwest-and-the-las-vegas-temple/ The petroglyph version is written correctly since Hebrew is read from left to right. If those characters are the same as on the Anthon transcript, they are reversed. What could that mean? Nobody could read Egyptian at the time so they would not have known that Egyptian Demotic is read from right to left just like Hebrew. Perhaps it was a guess and the characters were copied right to left and written left to right by an American scribe. Or the characters were randomly selected and just happened to end up together. It's very interesting to think about. It would be worthwhile to translate some of the Anthon characters from the closest matching Demotic and see if any particular themes match what we find in the Book of Mormon. 1
hagoth7 Posted August 18, 2015 Posted August 18, 2015 (edited) ...Added: Here is the link to the first historical novel based on the research. Much of this non-fiction and fiction work, is based in part on a talk by Ezra Taft Benson years back, who yearned and encouraged us to make the Book of Mormon the epicenter of creative writing and artistic endeavors. I still remember the talk distinctly. Perhaps someone here can offer a link to the talk? I'm not finding it for some reason.Apologies. I just noticed that the uploaded file was an early sample copy, and only included the first chapters. I'll look and see if I can't upload the full book in the near future. Just got back from an errand, so now had a minute to find the the link to President Benson's talk."I have a vision of artists putting into film, drama, literature, music, and paintings great themes and great characters from the Book of Mormon....I have a vision of the whole Church getting nearer to God by abiding by the precepts of the Book of Mormon. Indeed, I have a vision of flooding the earth with the Book of Mormon. My beloved Saints, I am now entering my ninetieth year. I am getting older and less vigorous and am so grateful for your prayers and for the support of my younger Brethren. I thank the Lord for renewing my body from time to time so that I can still help build His kingdom. I do not know fully why God has preserved my life to this age, but I do know this: That for the present hour He has revealed to me the absolute need for us to move the Book of Mormon forward now in a marvelous manner. You must help with this burden and with this blessing which He has placed on the whole Church, even all the children of Zion. Moses never entered the promised land. Joseph Smith never saw Zion redeemed. Some of us may not live long enough to see the day when the Book of Mormon floods the earth and when the Lord lifts His condemnation. (See D&C 84:54–58.) But, God willing, I intend to spend all my remaining days in that glorious effort. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen." Edited August 18, 2015 by hagoth7 1
hagoth7 Posted August 18, 2015 Posted August 18, 2015 (edited) You know I have to apologize for the offhand way I have been thinking about this because I did not read the link to your paper detailing all this out....Thank you, but you owe me no apology. ...The idea that Joseph Smith might have been a Nephite is an amazing idea and that indeed many of us could be is also fascinating...That is all amplified by what I meant a few months ago here, in response to the poll, which asked whether Nephites really existed, and whether it even matters: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/65463-nephites-yea-or-nay/?p=1209502143But to reiterate, this whole snowball didn't start with me, it all started with a suggestion from my brother who had been pondering Lehi's promise to Nephi's brother Joseph. He is the same brother who, years earlier, sparked my initial interest in European history. And he is also the same brother who encouraged me, at the age of 11 or 12, to read the Book of Mormon, and to earnestly test Moroni's promise. I owe him a great deal. And I readily acknowledge God's hand throughout this whole thing, meanwhile acknowledging that it is by no means church doctrine. So all this had little to do with me, and I don't consider anyone obligated to accept it. I typically discuss the European aspect of Nephite history (if I may call it that) only every few years or so. You can do a search for "Tiro" in this forum, and thereby uncover a few things that have been said in the past. There are also a number of lengthier threads that provide more detail elsewhere. The short book you've apparently read online was once many chapters longer. I may do some digging one of these days to see if I can't find the larger version...or take time to rewrite it...or simply let the shorter one suffice. Edited August 18, 2015 by hagoth7 1
mfbukowski Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 I think the shorter version is more likely to be actually read by posters here though I am sure there are some fascinating details in the longer version! If you secularized the story a bit it might make an interesting novel, using current Mormon theories about the "Nephites" being Mayan, I can imagine a book based around the idea of "Cicero and the Mayan" or something like that might sell well, who knows? I wonder if the DNA would show any evidence of all this? But again we always have the problem of what Nephite DNA is "supposed" to look like.
hagoth7 Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 (edited) I think the shorter version is more likely to be actually read by posters here... That's very helpful input. You're likely quite right. ...If you secularized the story a bit it might make an interesting novel, using current Mormon theories about the "Nephites" being Mayan...In the story in the first book in the series, I intentionally avoided any indication of where in the Americas they originated, since we simply don't know yet. I'm not currently of the opinion that the epicenter of Nephite activity was in Mesoamerica, but I am open to the idea. ...I can imagine a book based around the idea of "Cicero and the Mayan" or something like that might sell well, who knows?...Cicero and TIro will likely play roles in later books in the series, if I get around to writing them. But we don't intend on selling them. We'd rather just share them online for those who happen find them helpful or edifying. The first book is based on Alma 63 and on elements from origin accounts of early Germanic tribes. As to "Cicero and the Mayan," perhaps that is a book you might feel impressed to write some day...?You said you can imagine it. To cite something from Scott Porter's Education Week session yesterday:"Whatever you can dream you can do. Begin it. Boldness has power." (Goethe) I wonder if the DNA would show any evidence of all this? But again we always have the problem of what Nephite DNA is "supposed" to look like. Remains to be seen. Edited August 19, 2015 by hagoth7
canard78 Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 You know I have to apologize for the offhand way I have been thinking about this because I did not read the link to your paper detailing all this out. You have been too modest in putting your ideas out there I think.The idea that Joseph Smith might have been a Nephite is an amazing idea and that indeed many of us could be is also fascinating.Suddenly those Friberg painting almost make sense except for being from the wrong hemisphere! Details details!Mfb... are you losing the plot?
mfbukowski Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 Mfb... are you losing the plot?Dude..... oh wait- should I say bloke or chap or something else like that ? Anyway, dude, the point is that there is no plot! We are making it up as we go!HIS- story is as good as any other story. Who the heck knows what "really" happened anyway? For some reason they turned off all the worldwide security cameras before 1980 or so. And those videos from ancient Rome? Not worth the wax they are recorded on! 1
mfbukowski Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 (edited) That's very helpful input. You're likely quite right. In the story in the first book in the series, I intentionally avoided any indication of where in the Americas they originated, since we simply don't know yet. I'm not currently of the opinion that the epicenter of Nephite activity was in Mesoamerica, but I am open to the idea. Cicero and TIro will likely play roles in later books in the series, if I get around to writing them. But we don't intend on selling them. We'd rather just share them online for those who happen find them helpful or edifying. The first book is based on Alma 63 and on elements from origin accounts of early Germanic tribes. As to "Cicero and the Mayan," perhaps that is a book you might feel impressed to write some day...?You said you can imagine it. To cite something from Scott Porter's Education Week session yesterday:"Whatever you can dream you can do. Begin it. Boldness has power." (Goethe) Remains to be seen.An idea, but I am not into fiction and history. They seem too closely related to me. I am too much a total skeptic. Kind of like the evening news too I guess. OK for the big stuff but the nuances? Fergitabout it! Yes there might be a war in wherever but why and who started it over what? No way! That's why I am so certain about God. Is he out there or in my head? It's no problem because I could not know the difference so I might as well go with what feels right. That's my version of Pascal's Wager. Edited August 19, 2015 by mfbukowski
Robert F. Smith Posted September 1, 2015 Posted September 1, 2015 I know this isn't much information, but I skimmed through a book at my local library about this. The book was the author's explanation of his attempted translation of those characters based on his experience working with ancient languages. If I remember correctly, he identified them as a specific verse in Ether which had something to do with boats crossing the ocean. It is possible that was some sort of drug-induced hallucination, but that's what I recall.I would sure appreciate it if you could recall the actual name of that book, or relocate it at your library.
Nevo Posted September 1, 2015 Posted September 1, 2015 I would sure appreciate it if you could recall the actual name of that book, or relocate it at your library. I suspect oremites is thinking of Stan and Polly Johnson's Translating the Anthon Transcript (reviewed here).
Robert F. Smith Posted September 1, 2015 Posted September 1, 2015 (edited) And this from the same source ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_Egyptian): Mainstream scholarly view of reformed EgyptianStandard language reference works contain no reference to "reformed Egyptian". No non-Mormon scholars acknowledge the existence of either a "reformed Egyptian" language or a "reformed Egyptian" script as it has been described in Mormon belief. For instance, in 1966, John A. Wilson, professor of Egyptology at the University of Chicago, wrote, "From time to time there are allegations that picture writing has been found in America… In no case has a professional Egyptologist been able to recognize these characters as Egyptian hieroglyphs. From our standpoint there is no such language as 'reformed Egyptian'." Klaus Baer, another Egyptologist at the University of Chicago, called the characters of the "Caractors" document nothing but "doodlings". An early-twentieth-century scholar said that the "Caractors" document looked more like "deformed English." Anthropologist Michael D. Coe of Yale University, an expert in pre-Columbian Mesoamerican studies, has written, "Of all the peoples of the pre-Columbian New World, only the ancient Maya had a complete script."A lot of inexcusable misinformation here. One really needs to read the BofM in order to figure out what "reformed Egyptian" is supposed to be. For example, in Mormon 9:31-34, Moroni excuses the imperfections of the record as due to restrictions imposed by plate-size and the consequent use of economical "reformed Egyptian" characters, rather than the more expressive reformed ("altered") Hebrew (compare III Nephi 5:18).[1] Thus, Moroni seems to be describing what scholars contemporary with Joseph Smith were calling enchorial, short-hand (tachygraphie), or cursive Egyptian writing, which we today refer to as hieratic or demotic. Such cursive scripts naturally change through time, and a millennium of Nephite history was certainly enough time within which to expect some changes in their cursive Egyptian script. Indeed, what non-Mormon Egyptologists W. C. Hayes and Richard A. Parker found when they took a serious look at the Caractors Memento (formerly called the "Anthon Transcript") was authentic Egyptian cursive. Moreover, when the characters of that Memento are closely examined and lald out according to their internal structure, one finds two major chiastic structures -- See Shirley Heater's excellent article in The Witness, #154 (Summer 2015), page 5, online at http://nebula.wsimg.com/dca957f5e91eed9fdaabd50617bc787e?AccessKeyId=AA525AED21BB7CA23BE6&disposition=0&alloworigin=1 . Chiasmus was an important rhetorical feature of ancient Egyptian, Hebrew, and the Book of Mormon. You might also want to take a look at my and Gordon Thomasson's 1984 FARMS Preliminary Report, "Martin Harris' Visit with Charles Anthon" (2nd ed., 1990), in which we gather a lot of collateral information and documents.[1] William J. Hamblin, “Reformed Egyptian,” FARMS Review, 19/1 (2007):31–35, online at http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/19/1/S00006-5176a7ad373d86Hamblin.pdf . Edited September 1, 2015 by Robert F. Smith
Robert F. Smith Posted September 1, 2015 Posted September 1, 2015 I suspect oremites is thinking of Stan and Polly Johnson's Translating the Anthon Transcript (reviewed here).Thanks Nevo. Now I recall reading John Gee's review of it. Never mind. These are not the droids we're interested in.
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