Bom Evidence That Support The North American Model

[Tom m]

Verses and statements made by Joseph Smith supporting the North American model

There are two places that we know for sure were the Book of Mormon took place that would be the Hill Cumorah and Zarahemla found across from Nauvou (D&C 125:3)

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Based on were the Hill Cumorah is we can know where the land of desolation is and then we can know where the land Bountiful is, the west sea, the narrow neck and Zarahemla

Ether chapter 15 it talks about the Jaredites and how 2 million Jaredites were killed their bones being the land of Desolation.  We know the Land of Desolation is located next to the Hill Cumorah because of Ether 15:11 Coriatumor camped next to the Hill Ramah which it says this is the same hill Mormon hid up the records.
Alma 63: 4-5 places the land of Desolation, Zarahemla, Bountiful, West Sea, and the narrow neck all within the same vicinity of land Desolation or the hill Cumorah

Alma 22: 27-28,32 Places Sea West, narrow strip of wilderness, Manti, River Sidon, Zarahemla, Fathers first inheritance, and the land of Desolation again all within the same vicinity of each other also meaning that it would be within a distant travel of the Hill Cumorah not a 2500 mile migration.

Ether 9:34, Mosiah 18:4, and Alma 22:31 refer to migrating beast and beast that could survive off of for food. The verses also refer to seasons. Central America has no migrating land animals and its seasons are hot and hotter. North America has migrating Buffalo which was dependent upon the season. There was an estimated 60 million buffalo at one time that the American Indians used to sustain themselves. The US government attempted to wipe out the American Indians by killing off the buffalo.

Book of Mormon says that during certain times of the year there were frequent sickness and fevers. America has a season called the flu season known for sickness and fevers.
These verses probably refer to tornados 3Nephi 8:16, 2Nephi 26:5 3Nephi 10:14 Central America does not have tornados North America has an area referred to as tornado alley
Here’s an example 16 And there were some who were carried away in the whirlwind; and whither they went no man knoweth, save they know that they were carried away.

    1) Alma 49:22, Alma 49:18 Alma 48:8 refer to Nephites and using banks of earth to enclose and fortify their cities. The Great Lakes Indian tribes used mound of dirt to enclose their cities.

   2) Alma 22:32 refers to the narrow strip of land only taking a day and a half to travel. It takes on average three weeks to traverse the narrowest part of Central America from the Pacific and to the Atlantic. It’s a 50 mile strip of land that includes jungle and a mountain range between the two oceans. Between Lake Erie and Lake Ontario there is an 18 mile strip of land that takes approximately a day and a half to traverse and is about 40 miles away from the Hill Cumorah.

    3) One of the largest earthquakes to ever hit the USA was along the New Madrid Fault along the Mississippi River in the 1800’s. During this earthquake that lasted many hours the Mississippi River flowed backwards new lakes were made and some lakes went dry. The New Madrid Fault erupts about every 300 years. Which means that it corresponds to the time that Christ would have visited Zarahemla on the North American continent.

In May and June 1834 Joseph Smith led a Mormon group (a paramilitary expedition known as Zion's Camp) on a march from Kirtland, Ohio to Jackson County, Missouri. On June 3, while passing through west-central Illinois near Griggsville, some bones were unearthed from a mound. These bones were identified by Smith as belonging to a Lamanite chieftain-warrior named Zelph. The mound in question is now known as Naples-Russell Mound 8.

"At about one foot deep we discovered the skeleton of a man, almost entire; and between two of his ribs we found an Indian arrow, which had evidently been the cause of his death. Subsequently the visions of the past being opened to my understanding by the Spirit of the Almighty, I discovered that the person whose skeleton was before us was a white Lamanite, a large, thickset man, and a man of God. His name was Zelph. He was a warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus, who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea to the Rocky Mountains.” The Hopewell Indians made highways and had an advanced trade system that extended to the Rocky Mountains.

[ERayR]

Verses and statements made by Joseph Smith supporting the North American model

"At about one foot deep we discovered the skeleton of a man, almost entire; and between two of his ribs we found an Indian arrow, which had evidently been the cause of his death. Subsequently the visions of the past being opened to my understanding by the Spirit of the Almighty, I discovered that the person whose skeleton was before us was a white Lamanite, a large, thickset man, and a man of God. His name was Zelph. He was a warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus, who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea to the Rocky Mountains.” The Hopewell Indians made highways and had an advanced trade system that extended to the Rocky Mountains.

 

Please direct me to where in the Book of Mormon I can find the great prophet Onandagus?

[Tom m]

Please direct me to where in the Book of Mormon I can find the great prophet Onandagus?

Onandagus is not mentioned in the Book of Mormon and according to the scriptures nor were many prophets mentioned in the Book of Mormon. Words of Mormon 1:16 "16 And after there had been false prophets, and false preachers and teachers among the people, and all these having been punished according to their crimes; and after there having been much contention and many dissensions away unto the Lamanites, behold, it came to pass that king Benjamin, with the assistance of the holy prophets who were among his people". Onandagus is mentioned from Joseph Smith in a vision he had written fown from his own hand.

[Brant Gardner]

Verses and statements made by Joseph Smith supporting the North American model

There are two places that we know for sure were the Book of Mormon took place that would be the Hill Cumorah and Zarahemla found across from Nauvou (D&C 125:3)

Actually, we don't know either of those things. There is no indication that the name Zarahemla came from a previous Zarahemla. I know that it has been hypothesized, but not by any historian with knowledge of church history. It is no more sure than that Lehi in Utah (or Nephi, for that matter) were actual Book of Mormon cities.

The evidence for Cumorah is all circumstantial. Joseph himself did not use Cumorah for the hill from which he took the plates until long after others had been using it. Perhaps it is because he understood the text when it said that the plates buried in Cumorah were all except the ones Moroni took to give to Joseph. A very early misreading of the text became popular, but that does not make it a certain geographic figure.

1) Alma 49:22, Alma 49:18 Alma 48:8 refer to Nephites and using banks of earth to enclose and fortify their cities. The Great Lakes Indian tribes used mound of dirt to enclose their cities.

This is too general to uses as evidence. It describes a very large number of civilizations, including those of Mesoamerica.

2) Alma 22:32 refers to the narrow strip of land only taking a day and a half to travel.

Most geographers consider the narrow strip to be different from the narrow neck. Although it is assumed that the travel time is to traverse the whole of the narrow neck, that isn't what the text says. It speaks of a fortified line without specifically designating the line. While it is certainly an issue to be discussed, it isn't as conclusive as you suggest.

Between Lake Erie and Lake Ontario there is an 18 mile strip of land that takes approximately a day and a half to traverse and is about 40 miles away from the Hill Cumorah.[\quote]

And yet that narrow neck is in the wrong geographic location. It is north of the NY Cumorah, and the Book of Mormon Cumorah is north of the narrow neck. Bountiful guarded the narrow neck to prevent passage through and that puts Bountiful in the wrong place. It does make for a defensible position, but now you have to place the final battle somewhere in Canada, accepting that narrow neck.

 

3) One of the largest earthquakes to ever hit the USA was along the New Madrid Fault along the Mississippi River in the 1800’s. During this earthquake that lasted many hours the Mississippi River flowed backwards new lakes were made and some lakes went dry. The New Madrid Fault erupts about every 300 years. Which means that it corresponds to the time that Christ would have visited Zarahemla on the North American continent.

Except that geologists don't link the descriptions from the Book of Mormon with an earthquake but rather with a volcanic eruption. Are you suggesting that geologists don't actually know geological phenomena?

 

In May and June 1834 Joseph Smith led a Mormon group (a paramilitary expedition known as Zion's Camp) on a march from Kirtland, Ohio to Jackson County, Missouri. On June 3, while passing through west-central Illinois near Griggsville, some bones were unearthed from a mound. These bones were identified by Smith as belonging to a Lamanite chieftain-warrior named Zelph. The mound in question is now known as Naples-Russell Mound 8.

If you are going to cite this, you probably should know the history behind the statement. Much of what ended up in the History of the Church does not appear to have come from Joseph.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Brant Gardner

[Tom m]

In my opinion your analysis is completely wrong. And in the case of zelph how he was known from the east sea ( Lake Ontario) to the Rocky Mountains. It was a letter from Joseph Smith to his wife Emma I don't know how you can disprove that.

Edited July 4, 2015 by Tom m

[Hagoth]

In my opinion your analysis is completely wrong. And in the case of zelph how he was known from the east sea ( Lake Ontario) to the Rocky Mountains. It was a letter from Joseph Smith to his wife Emma I don't know how you can disprove that.

Why in the world would you assume he was talking about Lake Ontario and not the Atlantic Ocean?

[Tom m]

If you new about Book of Mormon geography you would know

[PeterPear]

 

The evidence for Cumorah is all circumstantial. Joseph himself did not use Cumorah for the hill from which he took the plates until long after others had been using it. Perhaps it is because he understood the text when it said that the plates buried in Cumorah were all except the ones Moroni took to give to Joseph. A very early misreading of the text became popular, but that does not make it a certain geographic figure.

 

 

Brant, you have no proof of that. You're condemning the Early Saints of not understanding. The Joseph Smith papers have proven the Hill Cumorah is in New York.

Even Orson Pratt who thought the war commenced south of Mesoamerica stated the Hill Cumorah was in New York and where the final battle was.

 

Per your or Dr. Sorenson's theory, Moroni left Mesoamerica and its Lamanites behind and wandered north until he found a silly hill which has been claimed by your theory to be nothing more than a gravel-pile which could never contain a cave.

 

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/appendix-orson-pratt-an-interesting-account-of-several-remarkable-visions-1840?p=21&highlight=Hill%20Cumorah

 

This war com menced at the Isthmus of Darien, and was very destructive  to both nations for many years.  At length, the Nephites  were driven before their enemies, a great distance to the  north, and north-east; and having gathered their whole nation together, both men, women, and children, they en camped on, and round about the hill Cumorah, where the  records were found, which is in the State of New York,  about two hundred miles west of the city of Albany. Here  they were met by the numerous hosts of the Lamanites, 

 

 

This also identifies the Hill Cumorah in New York:

You are acquainted with the mail road from  Palmyra, Wayne Co. to Canandaigua, Ontario Co. N.Y.  and also, as you pass from the former to the latter  place, before arriving at the little village of Manch ester, say from three to four, or about four miles from  Palmyra, you pass a large hill on the east side of  the road. Why I say large, is because it is as large  perhaps, as any in that country. To a person acquainted  with this road, a description would be unnecessary,  as it is the largest and rises the highest of any on  that rout. The north end rises quite sudden until  it assumes a level with the more southerly extremi ty, and I think I may say an elevation higher than  at the south a short distance, say half or three  fourths of a mile. As you pass toward cananda igua it lessens gradually until the surface assumes [p. 85]

 

a level with the more southerly extremity, and  I think I may, its common level, or is broken by  other smaller hills or ridges, water courses and ravines.  I think I am justified in saying that this is the  highest hill for some distance round, and I am  certain that its appearance, as it rises so suddenly  from a plain on the north, must attract the  notice of the traveller as he passes by.

At about one mile west rises another ridge  of less height, running parallel with the former,  leaving a beautiful vale between. The soil is  of the first quality for the country, and un der a state of cultivation, which gives a prosp ect at once imposing, when one reflects on the  fact, that here, between these hills, the entire po wer and national strength of both the Jaredi tes and Nephites were destroyed.

By turning to the 529th and 530th pages of the  book of Mormon120 you will read Mormon’s account  of the last great struggle of his people, as they  were encamped round this hill Cumorah. (it is  printed Camorah, which is an error.) In this  vally fell the remaining strength and pride  of a once powerful people, the Nephites—once  so highly favored of the Lord, but at that time  in darkness, doomed to suffer extermination  by the hand of their barbarous and uncivilized  brethren. From the top of this hill, Mormon,  with a few others, after the battle, gazed with hor ror upon the mangled remains of those who,  the day before, were filled with anxiety, hope  or doubt. A few had fled to the South, who  were hunted down by the victorious party, and  all who would not deny the Saviour and his  religion, were put to death. Mormon himself,  according to the record of his son Moroni, was  also slain.

 

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/history-1834-1836?p=90&highlight=Hill%20Cumorah#!/paperSummary/history-1834-1836&p=90

 

See the search result:

http://josephsmithpapers.org/searchNew?query=Hill%20Cumorah&sort=relevance&page=1&perpage=10&startdate=&enddate=&transcripts=false&issuggestion=false&types=documents-papers|documents-papers-histories|related-materials|biographical-directory|geographical-directory|glossary

 

It never ceases to amaze how supporters for Mesoamerica Theory for the Book of Mormon have to prove their theory by criticizing early church members, early church history, even scripture - in attempt to prove the truth of the Book of Mormon with a Mesoamerica Theory.

 

Here you have the Prophet Joseph Smith pointing out locations in the land of Cumorah:

 

The Prophet is declaring the location of where the Book of Mormon was revealed, the location where the Three Witness saw the Angel and the Gold Plates and where the Priesthood was restored.

 

But members of the Church who support a Mesoamerica Theory, ignore it saying Joseph Smith never used the word Cumorah. It's claimed Joseph Smith didn't use the word until long after others used the word.

This is interesting theory, isn't it. The claim that Joseph Smith is adapting to what others are telling him. Joseph Smith isn't important for a Mesoamerica Theory - a theory which is alleged to prove the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.

Not sure where the logic is found in this, but there you have it.

 

 

• Doctrine and Covenants 128:20

  20 And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets—the book to be revealed. A voice of the Lord in the wilderness of Fayette, Seneca county, declaring the three witnesses to bear record of the book! The voice of Michael on the banks of the Susquehanna, detecting the devil when he appeared as an angel of light! The voice of Peter, James, and John in the wilderness between Harmony, Susquehanna county, and Colesville, Broome county, on the Susquehanna river, declaring themselves as possessing the keys of the kingdom, and of the dispensation of the fulness of times!

Edited July 4, 2015 by PeterPear

[Kaleb Webb]

The HoC account might not have necessarily been Joseph's, but there are at least five other accounts that were written at the time that the vision was supposed to happen. The most notable of these was Wilford Woodruff's journal.

[Brant Gardner]

Brant, you have no proof of that. You're condemning the Early Saints of not understanding. The Joseph Smith papers have proven the Hill Cumorah is in New York.

Remember that the point is what Joseph called the hill. For that, see Reeve, Rex C., Jr., and Richard O. Cowan. “The Hill Called Cumorah.” In Regional Studies in LDS History: New York and Pennsylvania, edited by Larry C. Porter, Milton V. Backman Jr., and Susan Easton Black. Provo, Utah: BYU Department of Church History and Doctrine, 1992, 72–73:

"At what point in modern times this New York hill was first called Cumorah is difficult to determine. In his account in the Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith refers to the hill where the plates were buried, but never calls it by any name. In the Doctrine and Covenants the name “Cumorah” only appears one time, in an 1842 epistle written by Joseph Smith: “And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah!” (D&C 128:20). No other uses of “Cumorah” have been found in any other of Joseph Smith’s personal writings. When this name does appear it has been added by later editors or is being quoted from another individual."

So, according to historians who have been through the records, Joseph wasn't using the name Cumorah until 1842, even though others had been using it long before. We have other evidence that Joseph picked up on the way the Saints had taken to calling things (the interpreters became the urim and thummim, which Joseph also didn't use until quite late). So we have corroboration that Joseph was willing to follow usage that he did not initiate.

The NY hill is unquestionably the one from which the plates were taken. That is not in question. However, the Book of Mormon Hill Cumorah--the location of the final battle--was not the hill were the plates were deposited:

6 And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

(Mormon 6:6)

Edited July 4, 2015 by Brant Gardner

[PeterPear]

Remember that the point is what Joseph called the hill. For that, see Reeve, Rex C., Jr., and Richard O. Cowan. “The Hill Called Cumorah.” In Regional Studies in LDS History: New York and Pennsylvania, edited by Larry C. Porter, Milton V. Backman Jr., and Susan Easton Black. Provo, Utah: BYU Department of Church History and Doctrine, 1992, 72–73:"At what point in modern times this New York hill was first called Cumorah is difficult to determine. In his account in the Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith refers to the hill where the plates were buried, but never calls it by any name. In the Doctrine and Covenants the name “Cumorah” only appears one time, in an 1842 epistle written by Joseph Smith: “And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah!” (D&C 128:20). No other uses of “Cumorah” have been found in any other of Joseph Smith’s personal writings. When this name does appear it has been added by later editors or is being quoted from another individual."So, according to historians who have been through the records, Joseph wasn't using the name Cumorah until 1842, even though others had been using it long before. We have other evidence that Joseph picked up on the way the Saints had taken to calling things (the interpreters became the urim and thummim, which Joseph also didn't use until quite late). So we have corroboration that Joseph was willing to follow usage that he did not initiate.The NY hill is unquestionably the one from which the plates were taken. That is not in question. However, the Book of Mormon Hill Cumorah--the location of the final battle--was not the hill were the plates were deposited:6 And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.(Mormon 6:6)

Well Brant, there's a new thing called the "Joseph Smith Papers" that Church has provided access to. Have you heard of it?

So you no longer have to refer - as an appeal to authority - to old articles by authors who claim the "it's difficult to determine" when the hill in New York was first called Cumorah.

But if you want to base your LGT Central America Theory on "it's difficult to determine" no one is stopping you.

But seriously, are still wearing leisure suits with polyester dress shirts?

[ERayR]

Well Brant, there's a new thing called the "Joseph Smith Papers" that Church has provided access to. Have you heard of it?

So you no longer have to refer - as an appeal to authority - to old articles by authors who claim the "it's difficult to determine" when the hill in New York was first called Cumorah.

But if you want to base your LGT Central America Theory on "it's difficult to determine" no one is stopping you.

But seriously, are still wearing leisure suits with polyester dress shirts?

 

But seriously are you still sitting wide-eyed and breathless in the front row of a Meldrum lecture drooling over his pronouncements?

[Calm]

But if you want to base your LGT Central America Theory on "it's difficult to determine" no one is stopping you.

But seriously, are still wearing leisure suits with polyester dress shirts?

Brant is in competition for "Most Polite and Decent Poster" with one or two others here, so there is no reason to respond with ridicule.

[Brant Gardner]

Well Brant, there's a new thing called the "Joseph Smith Papers" that Church has provided access to. Have you heard of it?

Why, yes, I have. Since we both have and you are so much more familiar with it, would you mind providing the reference to the specific statements that contradict what the historians had previously discovered? I would love to see it. Remember, you aren't looking for the places where Cumorah was added after the fact, but the the earliest time that Joseph used it.

I promise I will attempt to see if I can find that as well. However, since you appear to suggest that you know just where it is, please let me know.

Thank you.

[rodheadlee]

Well Brant, there's a new thing called the "Joseph Smith Papers" that Church has provided access to. Have you heard of it?

So you no longer have to refer - as an appeal to authority - to old articles by authors who claim the "it's difficult to determine" when the hill in New York was first called Cumorah.

But if you want to base your LGT Central America Theory on "it's difficult to determine" no one is stopping you.

But seriously, are still wearing leisure suits with polyester dress shirts?

Dude, you complained about me being snotty to you, How about you post like how you want to be treated?

[PeterPear]

Brant is in competition for "Most Polite and Decent Poster" with one or two others here, so there is no reason to respond with ridicule.

Who's ridiculing? I referred to the History of the Church and to the scriptures. He referred to some non-authoritative members who wrote biased articles.

Your response is a red herring.

After my studying the LGT Theory one is given the impression that church history should questioned and the early members were dolts who didn't know what they were talking about - and that the TRUTH about BoM geography came about in the late 70s because some archeologist stumbled upon Central America with University grant money, and you need to read tomes of books to understand it.

To continue my dress shirt metaphor, this is what the LGT does to Church History and Scripture:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4CPK5-edfDo

[PeterPear]

Dude, you complained about me being snotty to you, How about you post like how you want to be treated?

Sensitve aren't we. Polyester shirts?

[Brant Gardner]

I have looked on the Joseph Smith Papers site. They have an index, which is helpful. I suppose they missed something, but I suspect that Cumorah is a fair bet to be indexed.

Multiple references came up. Most were late, as suggested. The earliest seen in the papers is 1835 and it is in two letters (I think there were two different ones) written by Oliver Cowdery.

So far, the LDS historians appear to have been correct. I have found nothing in the Joseph Smith papers that contradicts their position.

So far, with the work that those historians did and with the published papers on josephsmithpapers.org, the statement remains true that we do not have a record of Joseph using that term until 1842.

We still have the problem of the Book of Mormon to deal with, since Mormon told us that he never buried the plates that Moroni gave to Joseph in the Cumorah of the last battle in the Book of Mormon.

[Brant Gardner]

After my studying the LGT Theory one is given the impression that church history should questioned and the early members were dolts who didn't know what they were talking about - and that the TRUTH about BoM geography came about in the late 70s because some archeologist stumbled upon Central America with University grant money, and you need to read tomes of books to understand it.

I am not sure what you have read, because your conclusion is demonstrably incorrect. There were papers published locating the Book of Mormon in Central America in the 1930's. It became more prominent around 1950. There were then (as there are now) other theories.

There has never been a statement by anyone with whom I am familiar who has proposed a limited Mesoamerican geography for the Book of Mormon that "early members were dolts."

The history of the ideas relative to Book of Mormon geography are much more complex that your caricature, and speculation related to Central America is contemporaneous with Joseph Smith. Even disputing the authorship of the Times and Seasons articles that clearly support that identification, we still have Joseph's comment about Stephens and Catherwood's book to John Bernheisel. It is very difficult to suggest that Joseph was not open to the idea. I agree that Joseph wasn't particularly precise, but rather was open to a lot of things--a position that continued to be the position of the Church from post-Joseph to now.

I would suggest that if you are going to cite history that you at least attempt to get the outlines of it correct.

[rodheadlee]

Sensitve aren't we. Polyester shirts?

Naw, I wear T- shirts, exclusively.                                    

[Bob Crockett]

Multiple references came up. Most were late, as suggested. The earliest seen in the papers is 1835 and it is in two letters (I think there were two different ones) written by Oliver Cowdery.

 

 

However, as I have pointed out in the past, the Papers project puts at least one of those letters within the official church history binder; i.e., Cowdery wrote it for insertion in the Church History.  Knowing that Joseph Smith was very precise about maintaining an official history, as that mandate is contained with the D&C, one must really assume that that letter had more than his tacit approval.  

 

The North American model as a limited geography is as hopeless as a Mesoamerican model.  What really troubles me about the Mesoamerican model is that it very much conflicts with repeated statements, thoughts, opinions, official statements, semi-official statements, things that look like revealed doctrine, relating to a hemispheric model, and that Dr. Sorenson claims to use the scientific method but doesn't.   I don't see that much different than Meldrum and May, although they devote half their first book to the DNA stuff -- a little more compelling than Sorenson's science.

[Brant Gardner]

Bob, there is no question about the fairly early date, just as there is no question that this comes from Oliver. It isn't a question of whether or not the saints had taken to calling the NY hill Cumorah. That clearly happened and certainly Oliver used that term in 1835.

That Oliver called it that is a separate question from what Joseph called the hill. Having Joseph accept what other people began calling the hill is quite different from saying that it was declared to be the very hill based on revelation.

Remember, we still have the inconvenience of Mormon himself saying that he explicitly did not bury the plates Moroni gave to Joseph in the Hill Cumorah of the last battle. In the absence of revelation and in the presence of the denial of the man who should have known (Mormon), we are left with the question of how the NY hill got the designation of Cumorah. There is no evidence that it was Joseph. There is evidence that it couldn't have been Mormon and therefore unlikely to have been Moroni.

We know that the designation of urim and thummim came from W.W. Phelps and that Joseph used either the term interpreters or seer stone rather than urim and thummim--until it has become established among the Saints. Then Joseph picked up the popular term. The evidence suggests that is probably the best explanation for the NY hill as well. It was a designation others began using and Joseph adopted later.

As for the Mesoamerican model conflicting with various statements, that is certainly true. It is also true that there are statements that would support the Mesoamerican model after Joseph had read Stephens and Catherwood. The history of the development of these ideas also suggests that there was no revelation but a lot of speculation. As you have mentioned Orson Pratt's speculations were influential because they were added in as footnotes to the text (making them appear to have authority in their declarations).

The one thing that I think can be said without question is that the church adopted the position that there was no known geography, even when various brethren were adamant about their own ideas. Even now, the official stance that there is no official stance is wise. It is something to be studied out, and the studies are in progress--some better than others, probably all waiting for even better information.

If the official church does not believe the question settled, I have no qualms in suggesting that all statements have reflected various degrees of speculation and were not accepted as revelation (personally, I don't think that they were presented as revelation either--other than the tendency of early Saints to think anything Joseph said must have been somehow special--something about which Joseph himself complained).

[Calm]

although they devote half their first book to the DNA stuff

 

But they reject the very science that they are claiming is evidence when the timing doesn't agree with their claims.

[Bob Crockett]

But they reject the very science that they are claiming is evidence when the timing doesn't agree with their claims.

Well, that is true. I've acknowledged that in my forthcoming paper (which hasn't been picked up but neither rejected).