New Era Casts Some Doubt On The Bom Plates

[Robert F. Smith]

 

Thanks Robert. Yes. The Maxwell Institute article does shed some light on the early LDS tradition.

I found something similar at Shields Research about tumbaga.

...........................................................................................   

The New Era article should have been corrected to say ""Neither Joseph nor any of the 

witnesses said that the ancient record was made from solid gold. Nor did they use the term 

"tumbaga plates" or "plates of tumbaga".

 

Thanks,

Jim

You are free to write to the New Era and recommend that they say something more along the lines that you would like to see.

 

Meantime, please be aware that Joseph Smith and his friends did not know anything about tumbaga, and likely knew very little about karat and other measures of purity of gold.  A jeweler (goldsmith) might have been able to tell him something about various levels of purity of gold, and about the ductility of it at those levels, but that is just speculation on my part.  Whatever the case, Joseph would be unlikely to use terminology which was outside his knowledge and experience.

[Bobbieaware]

I'm a little surprised (perhaps I souldn't be?) how a particularly weak anti-Mormon argument has thus far been able to generate 76 responses. Why bother to try so hard to please someone who poses such a silly and unfair question (were the Book of Mormon witnesses all trained metallurgists?) when it's a virtual certainty that if the vast majority of these anti-Mormons were given the opportunity to actually see and handle the Book of Mormon plates -- gold color and all -- it would mean absolutely nothing to them because they'd just say the plates were a hoax or the work of the devil. While reading this thread, I get the mental image of an old fashioned western where the bullying bad guy laughs as he orders one of his victims to "dance" as he shoots his revolver at the victim's feet. Even if we were to produce the most unassailable evidence, it would never be enough for the goading critic who hase not been touched by the spirit of meekness and humility that can only come from contact with the Spirit of Truth.

[Scott Lloyd]

It has become a cliche to use these phrases when we want to dismiss an argument because it's something we don't want to deal with. It's the ad hominem equivalent of equating a person with the nazi's. Just dismiss it out of hand because the foolish person is just "straining out gnats". So cliche.

For the benefit of HappyJackWagon, who apparently is driven to distraction by use of a stock expression derived from the Bible, here are some more secular terms I found in an online thesaurus:

 

 

fussy, carping, quibbling, pedantic, finicky, cavilling, pettifogging, a-n-a-l retentive, captious, hairsplitting

Edited to add:

 

Ironically, it strikes me that any of those terms could be applied to his fussing about use of the expression "straining at a gnat."

Edited April 13, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Bernard Gui]

Some critics have suggested Joseph fabricated the plates from tin or tin plate, since one of the Smith family skills was tinsmithing and it was available.

Tin or tin plate may be the only other possible material besides gold or gold alloy; however, the properties of common tin plate do not match the descriptions given by the witnesses - color, maleability, and thickness, for example.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Bernard Gui

[bcuzbcuz]

Page 30 of the July 2007 New Era magazine says, "Neither Joseph nor any of the 

witnesses said that the ancient record was made from solid gold. Nor did they use 

the term “gold plates” or “plates of gold.” All Joseph said is that they had "the 

appearance of gold ... It is more appropriate to refer to the ancient metal record 

as the Golden Plates, referring to their color, not the material they were made of".

 

This would confirm the testimony of the eight witnesses, that the plates had the 

appearance of gold.

 

I had several questions about this.

 

Why isn't the testimony of the eight witnesses more in agreement with Joseph's 

testimony that is recorded at the beginning of the Book of Mormon (where he said 

they were gold plates)?

 

Does the Mosiah 8:9 reference to 24 plates of pure gold mean they were not included 

in the plates Joseph supposedly found?

 

With so many references in General Conference about "gold plates" and "plates of 

gold", should people reject the testimony of the eight witnesses and the New Era 

article? (see attached)

 

Thanks,

Jim

The plates were not made of gold, even though scriptures say they were. Joseph couldn´t have run at top speed for half a mile or longer carrying gold paltes which being 6 inches by 8 inches would have weighed well over 100 lbs. The linen cloth he wrapped them in would have ripped either along a seam or from material fatigue. Even if the plates were made of an alloy of gold, running with 50 lbs under an arm and fighting off three attackers would be extremely difficult. Joseph Smith had a slight disability from an operation in his youth. There is no way the plates could have been gold.

[Robert F. Smith]

The plates were not made of gold, even though scriptures say they were. Joseph couldn´t have run at top speed for half a mile or longer carrying gold paltes which being 6 inches by 8 inches would have weighed well over 100 lbs. The linen cloth he wrapped them in would have ripped either along a seam or from material fatigue. Even if the plates were made of an alloy of gold, running with 50 lbs under an arm and fighting off three attackers would be extremely difficult. Joseph Smith had a slight disability from an operation in his youth. There is no way the plates could have been gold.

Well, of course, and why didn't we all see that from the beginning?  Would have obviated the need for this thread entirely.  Why?  Well, just bcuzbcuz . . .   Makes perfect sense.

 

And this is the readiest proof of the saying of Bill Wexler that "the difference between truth and fiction is that fiction must make sense."

[Sevenbak]

Some critics have suggested Joseph fabricated the plates from tin or tin plate, since one of the Smith family skills was tinsmithing and it was available.

Tin or tin plate may be the only other possible material besides gold or gold alloy; however, the properties of common tin plate do not match the descriptions given by the witnesses - color, maleability, and thickness, for example.

Actually, the best witness did describe the pages as being close to tin, but thinnner.  Joseph - “These records were engraven on plates which had the appearance of gold, each plate was six inches wide and eight inches long, and not quite so thick as common tin."

 

And Emma and William described them pretty close to that as well, as she examined them under fabric.  "Emma said she "felt of the plates, as they thus lay on the table, tracing their outline and shape. They seemed to be pliable like thick paper, and would rustle with a metallic sound when the edges were moved by the thumb, as one does sometimes thumb the edges of a book".^[122] William agreed that the plates could be rustled with one's thumb like the pages of a book.^[167]

[Robert F. Smith]

Actually, the best witness did describe the pages as being close to tin, but thinnner.  Joseph - “These records were engraven on plates which had the appearance of gold, each plate was six inches wide and eight inches long, and not quite so thick as common tin."

 

And Emma and William described them pretty close to that as well, as she examined them under fabric.  "Emma said she "felt of the plates, as they thus lay on the table, tracing their outline and shape. They seemed to be pliable like thick paper, and would rustle with a metallic sound when the edges were moved by the thumb, as one does sometimes thumb the edges of a book".^[122] William agreed that the plates could be rustled with one's thumb like the pages of a book.^[167]

The problem is that the tin could not approximate the weight of gold, which is why some suggest that Joseph used lead to fool everyone.  Of course lead sheets would not give the feel described by Emma.  Seems there is no coherent or satisfactory way of explaining the multiple descriptions, except via some sort of gold alloy.

[bcuzbcuz]

Well, of course, and why didn't we all see that from the beginning?  Would have obviated the need for this thread entirely.  Why?  Well, just bcuzbcuz . . .   Makes perfect sense.

 

And this is the readiest proof of the saying of Bill Wexler that "the difference between truth and fiction is that fiction must make sense."

Point to you.