General Conference: Sustaining Traditional Marriage Definition

[Bobbieaware]

mocking the gospel isn't exactly the healthiest move. Especially for a saint.

It's tempting to imagine one of the reasons why some member critics join themselves to a religion that's so radically out of step with their own personal beliefs is so that they can have lots of perverse "fun" mocking and slaming the church from the inside. In some circles, mocking and assailing the church from within tends to lend more credibility to the attacks, a la John Dehlin before his excommunication.

[Scott Lloyd]

Oh, I didn't know that this was YOUR thread.  In that case, I humbly ask for YOUR forgiveness. Because Scott forbid that I make you angry enough to exercise your only real power -- to close down this thread.

 

I don't know how old you are exactly, but I do know that you are too old to be on message board yelling, "Mine!  Mine!  Mine!"  But to keep you from taking your marbles and going home, I will leave YOUR thread.

 

Or to put it in language that you will understand, "I didn't want to be in your stupid thread anyway!  So there!"

I suppose it's characteristic of the entitlement mentality not to respect boundaries.

 

But yes, I will close this thread for a while if it becomes necessary.

[jwhitlock]

Oh, I didn't know that this was YOUR thread.  In that case, I humbly ask for YOUR forgiveness. Because Scott forbid that I make you angry enough to exercise your only real power -- to close down this thread.

 

I don't know how old you are exactly, but I do know that you are too old to be on message board yelling, "Mine!  Mine!  Mine!"  But to keep you from taking your marbles and going home, I will leave YOUR thread.

 

Or to put it in language that you will understand, "I didn't want to be in your stupid thread anyway!  So there!"

 

 

STOP IT! STOP IT! STOP IT!

 

Hypocrisy is a pretty ugly thing, newb.

[Avatar4321]

What isn't healthy is that you think that President Packer IS the Gospel.

no. Creating and restoring life through Jesus Christ is. The righteous use of our powers of procreation is. Calling repentance for misuse of our sacred powers is.

the process you just mocked.

and if you think mocking an old man makes things better, then you really are unhealthy. Come to Christ and let go of your pride. Do you think Christ is going to praise your good works for mocking a man in his old age? Even forgetting that that man is one of his apostles.

is this the mark of what you think a Christian should be? Forgive me if I order to be among the saints then.

[mormonnewb]

no. Creating and restoring life through Jesus Christ is. The righteous use of our powers of procreation is. Calling repentance for misuse of our sacred powers is.

the process you just mocked.

and if you think mocking an old man makes things better, then you really are unhealthy. Come to Christ and let go of your pride. Do you think Christ is going to praise your good works for mocking a man in his old age? Even forgetting that that man is one of his apostles.

is this the mark of what you think a Christian should be? Forgive me if I order to be among the saints then.

 

 

With the Lloyd's indulgence, I'd like to answer that it is extremely un-Christlike to mock the feeble and infirm.  However, in my defense, I do NOT see President Packer in this way.  When I listen to him, I do so with the expectation of hearing prophetic counsel from an apostle of the Lord.  If I thought of him as some doddering old man, then I would have said, "Bless his heart!"  However, I expect A LOT from those I sustain as prophets, seers and revelators because "To whom much is given, much is required."

 

That being said, I am guilty of nit-picking and fault-finding.  I'm sure that as I re-listen to the talk over the next six months, I will find insights that are poignant and instructive.

 

But in my defense, I'm REALLY good at nit-picking and fault-finding.  In fact, I'm a professional nit-picker and fault-finder.  And I'm being truthful.  People actually pay me money to mock myself, them and others.

 

But Lloyd willing, I will be able to control natural urges in the future (see, I did it again).

[Scott Lloyd]

I'm unlocking this thread to add new content, but will lock it again if I see it being abused.

[Scott Lloyd]

Elder L. Tom Perry, of course, spoke of being with President Eyring and Bishop Causse in representing the Church at the Colloquium on Marriage and Family at the Vatican in Rome last November.

 

He expressed delight at the commonality among all the attendees regarding the concept of marriage and family.

 

Here is an excerpt. Bolded emphases are mine:

 

There were many who saw and expressed this unity, and they did so in a variety of ways. One of my favorites was when a Muslim scholar from Iran quoted two paragraphs verbatim from our very own Proclamation on the Family.

During the Colloquium, I observed that when various faiths and denominations and religions are united on marriage and family, they are also united on the values and loyalty and commitment which are naturally associated with family units. It was remarkable for me to see how marriage and family-centered priorities cut across and superseded any political, economic or religious differences. When it comes to love of spouse and hopes, worries and dreams for children, we are all the same.

It was marvelous to be in meetings with worldwide presenters as they universally addressed their feelings of the importance of marriage between a man and a woman. Each of their addresses was followed by testimonies from other religious leaders. President Henry B. Eyring gave the final testimony of the Colloquium. He bore powerful witness to the beauty of a committed marriage and to our belief in the promised blessing of eternal families.

President Eyring’s testimony was a fitting benediction to those three special days. ...

 

We also believe that strong traditional families are not only the basic units of a stable society, a stable economy, and a stable culture of values—but that they are also the basic units of eternity, and of the kingdom and government of God. ...

 

Despite what much of media and entertainment outlets may suggest, however, and despite the very real decline in the marriage and family orientation of some, the solid majority of mankind still believes that marriage should be between one man and one woman. They believe in fidelity within marriage, and they believe in the marriage vows of “in sickness and in health” and “’til death do us part.”...

 

We want our voice to be heard against all of the counterfeit and alternative lifestyles that try to replace the family organization that God Himself established. We also want our voice to be heard in sustaining the joy and fulfillment that traditional families bring. We must continue to project that voice throughout the world in declaring why marriage and family are so important; why marriage and family really do matter and why they always will.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

From President Packer's talk:

 

Over the years I have frequently taught an important principle: The end of all activity in the Church is to see that a man and a woman with their children are happy at home and sealed together for time and for all eternity. ...

 

The only legitimate, authorized expression of the powers of procreation is between husband and wife who have been legally and lawfully married. Anything other than this violates the commandments of God. Do not yield to the awful temptations of the adversary, for every debt of transgression must be paid “till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing” (Matthew 5:26).

This next passage could have reference to those beset with SSA along with others who have "limitations":

 

When we speak of marriage and family life, there inevitably comes to mind, “What about the exceptions?” Some are born with limitations and cannot beget children. Some innocents have their marriage wrecked because of the infidelity of their spouse. Others do not marry, and live lives of single worthiness.

 

For now, I offer this comfort: God is our Father! All the love and generosity manifest in the ideal earthly father is magnified in Him who is our Father and our God beyond the capacity of the mortal mind to comprehend. His judgments are just; His mercy without limit; His power to compensate beyond any earthly comparison. “If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable” (1 Corinthians 15:19).

 

[Scott Lloyd]

From Elder Joseph W. Sitati of the Seventy:

 

           

Marriage between a man and a woman is the institution that God ordained for the fulfillment of the charge to multiply. A same-gender relationship does not multiply.

 

[rockpond]

Good quotes, Scott.  Thanks.

 

I'm curious, can you see how the following statements make it difficult for our gay & lesbian brothers and sisters to feel that they have a place here?

 

The end of all activity in the Church is to see that a man and a woman with their children are happy at home and sealed together for time and for all eternity.

 

We want our voice to be heard against all of the counterfeit and alternative lifestyles that try to replace the family organization that God Himself established. We also want our voice to be heard in sustaining the joy and fulfillment that traditional families bring. We must continue to project that voice throughout the world in declaring why marriage and family are so important; why marriage and family really do matter and why they always will.

[Scott Lloyd]

Good quotes, Scott.  Thanks.

 

I'm curious, can you see how the following statements make it difficult for our gay & lesbian brothers and sisters to feel that they have a place here?

 

The end of all activity in the Church is to see that a man and a woman with their children are happy at home and sealed together for time and for all eternity.

 

We want our voice to be heard against all of the counterfeit and alternative lifestyles that try to replace the family organization that God Himself established. We also want our voice to be heard in sustaining the joy and fulfillment that traditional families bring. We must continue to project that voice throughout the world in declaring why marriage and family are so important; why marriage and family really do matter and why they always will.

We have our work cut out for us, but we have to persuade them that same-sex attraction is a temporary condition that, at longest, will persist in this life only. That joy and rest await us in the hereafter.

 

In short, they have to be helped to gain a glimpse of eternity. And that's true of all of us.

[rockpond]

We have our work cut out for us, but we have to persuade them that same-sex attraction is a temporary condition that, at longest, will persist in this life only. That joy and rest await us in the hereafter.

In short, they have to be helped to gain a glimpse of eternity. And that's true of all of us.

It is true of all of us but it's easier to see while we live here and now enjoying the companionship of our spouses and children.

So yes, we have our work cut out for us.

p.s. Can I take your response as a "yes" to the question I posed?

[Scott Lloyd]

It is true of all of us but it's easier to see while we live here and now enjoying the companionship of our spouses and children.

So yes, we have our work cut out for us.

p.s. Can I take your response as a "yes" to the question I posed?

There has never been any doubt in my mind that it is an extremely difficult thing for them to cope with, and yes, if they are determined to regard homosexuality as an indelible part of their being, I can understand why many would reject Mormonism.

 

I'll go even farther and say I don't know that a just God would condemn them for such rejection under so very difficult circumstances.

 

It's certainly not my province to say.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

An ever-present irony in the work I do is that I am by necessity so engrossed in helping with news coverage of general conference that I miss much of the conference as it occurs in the moment. I try in subsequent weeks to study the written text of each conference sermon in turn.

 

Thus it is that I am only now becoming aware of the talk by Elder D. Todd Christofferson, "Why Marriage? Why Family?" He gave an eloquent address touching the subject of marriage properly being between a man and a woman and placing that doctrine within the broader panorama of the great plan of happiness and God's work to seal and exalt His children as families across the generations. I realize now that I should include excerpts from his talk in this thread. This I will now do, putting some phrases and sentences in boldface as I desire to give them emphasis:

 

At least four things are needed for the success of this divine plan: ...

 

Fourth, and finally, is the setting for our physical birth and subsequent spiritual rebirth into the kingdom of God. For His work to succeed to “[exalt us] with himself,”¹⁶God ordained that men and women should marry and give birth to children, thereby creating, in partnership with God, the physical bodies that are key to the test of mortality and essential to eternal glory with Him. He also ordained that parents should establish families and rear their children in light and truth,¹⁷ leading them to a hope in Christ. ...

 

A family built on the marriage of a man and woman supplies the best setting for God’s plan to thrive—the setting for the birth of children, who come in purity and innocence from God, and the environment for the learning and preparation they will need for a successful mortal life and eternal life in the world to come. A critical mass of families built on such marriages is vital for societies to survive and flourish. That is why communities and nations generally have encouraged and protected marriage and the family as privileged institutions. It has never been just about the love and happiness of adults.

 

The social science case for marriage and for families headed by a married man and woman is compelling.¹⁹ And so “we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.”²⁰ But our claims for the role of marriage and family rest not on social science but on the truth that they are God’s creation. It is He who in the beginning created Adam and Eve in His image, male and female, and joined them as husband and wife to become “one flesh” and to multiply and replenish the earth.²¹ Each individual carries the divine image, but it is in the matrimonial union of male and female as one that we attain perhaps the most complete meaning of our having been made in the image of God—male and female. Neither we nor any other mortal can alter this divine order of matrimony. It is not a human invention. Such marriage is indeed “from above, from God” and is as much a part of the plan of happiness as the Fall and the Atonement. ...

 

To declare the fundamental truths relative to marriage and family is not to overlook or diminish the sacrifices and successes of those for whom the ideal is not a present reality. Some of you are denied the blessing of marriage for reasons including a lack of viable prospects, same-sex attraction, physical or mental impairments, or simply a fear of failure that, for the moment at least, overshadows faith. Or you may have married, but that marriage ended, and you are left to manage alone what two together can barely sustain. Some of you who are married cannot bear children despite overwhelming desires and pleading prayers.

 

Even so, everyone has gifts; everyone has talents; everyone can contribute to the unfolding of the divine plan in each generation. Much that is good, much that is essential—even sometimes all that is necessary for now—can be achieved in less than ideal circumstances. So many of you are doing your very best. And when you who bear the heaviest burdens of mortality stand up in defense of God’s plan to exalt His children, we are all ready to march. With confidence we testify that the Atonement of Jesus Christ has anticipated and, in the end, will compensate all deprivation and loss for those who turn to Him. No one is predestined to receive less than all that the Father has for His children.

 

 

[CV75]

Thus it is that I am only now becoming aware of the talk by Elder D. Todd Christofferson, "Why Marriage? Why Family?"

There are a number of otehr talks that speak to the definition of traditional marriage as well:

The Family Is of God By Carole M. Stephens

Defenders of the Family Proclamation By Bonnie L. Oscarson

The Plan of Happiness By President Boyd K. Packer

We’ll Ascend Together By Linda K. Burton

Why Marriage and Family Matter—Everywhere in the World By Elder L. Tom Perry

Why Marriage, Why Family By Elder D. Todd Christofferson

Fatherhood—Our Eternal Destiny By Larry M. Gibson

On Being Genuine By President Dieter F. Uchtdorf

[Scott Lloyd]

There are a number of otehr talks that speak to the definition of traditional marriage as well:

The Family Is of God By Carole M. Stephens

Defenders of the Family Proclamation By Bonnie L. Oscarson

The Plan of Happiness By President Boyd K. Packer

We’ll Ascend Together By Linda K. Burton

Why Marriage and Family Matter—Everywhere in the World By Elder L. Tom Perry

Why Marriage, Why Family By Elder D. Todd Christofferson

Fatherhood—Our Eternal Destiny By Larry M. Gibson

On Being Genuine By President Dieter F. Uchtdorf

Thanks for this.

 

Some of these I have given excerpts from already on this thread.

[rockpond]

Thanks for this.

Some of these I have given excerpts from already on this thread.

There were a lot of references to man-woman marriage. Have you given thought to why there are so many?

[Scott Lloyd]

There were a lot of references to man-woman marriage. Have you given thought to why there are so many?

Isn't it obvious? Is this a trick question?

With the societal and governmental redefinition of marriage, for the first time in recorded history Church leaders are having to specify their meaning when they talk about marriage and to make it clear they are excluding homosexual relationships. See the quote from Elder Nelson in my signature below.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[rockpond]

Isn't it obvious? Is this a trick question?

With the societal and governmental redefinition of marriage, for the first time in recorded history Church leaders are having to specify their meaning when they talk about marriage and to make it clear they are excluding homosexual relationships. See the quote from Elder Nelson in my signature below.

 

Well, they are speaking to active church members (not government officials or society at large)... don't active church members agree on the definition of marriage?

[Sleeper Cell]

Well, they are speaking to active church members (not government officials or society at large)... don't active church members agree on the definition of marriage?

 

I suppose one could argue that General Conference speakers are primarily speaking to active church members, but aren’t the sessions televised to the general public?  True, outside the Utah-Idaho area, the news media does not give much coverage to conference talks. But to the extent they do, it seems to me that references to gay marriage and related subjects tend to receive the most coverage.  Why wouldn’t it be fair to say that church leaders are also speaking to society at large?  

Edited May 2, 2015 by Sleeper Cell

[Scott Lloyd]

Well, they are speaking to active church members (not government officials or society at large)... don't active church members agree on the definition of marriage?

Evidently you don't, and you profess to be an active member.

There are some who have purveyed a fanciful notion that since the government has redefined marriage, homosexual behavior is now OK under the law of chastity so long as it's within a marriage. So long as such blatant and misguided rationalization is going on, I think the Church leaders will now have to define their terms clearly.

[rockpond]

 

I suppose one could argue that General Conference speakers are primarily speaking to active church members, but aren’t the sessions televised to the general public?  True, outside the Utah-Idaho area, the news media does not give much coverage to conference talks. But to the extent they do, it seems to me that references to gay marriage and related subjects tend to receive the most coverage.  Why wouldn’t it be fair to say that church leaders are also speaking to society at large?  

 

 

I am sure that there is some incidental exposure to non-members but for the most part can we agree that society at large isn't listening?  The primary audience is active church membership, correct?

[rockpond]

There are some who have purveyed a fanciful notion that since the government has redefined marriage, homosexual behavior is now OK under the law of chastity so long as it's within a marriage.

 

I'm not aware of anyone who has made that argument (thought I have frequently seen it put forward as a strawman).

 

 

Evidently you don't, and you profess to be an active member.

 

I don't profess to be, I am.  But this is more to the point I was getting at.

 

If the primary audience of gen con is active church membership and we are seeing an increase in the number of talks reinforcing the idea that marriage is only between a man and a woman... what might that tell us?

[Sleeper Cell]

If the primary audience of gen con is active church membership and we are seeing an increase in the number of talks reinforcing the idea that marriage is only between a man and a woman... what might that tell us?

 

That some general authorities spend too much time on MD&DB?

 

 

 

... Sort of makes me wish I had been more civil in some of my posts.

[Russell C McGregor]

I'm not aware of anyone who has made that argument (thought I have frequently seen it put forward as a strawman).

 

 

 

I don't profess to be, I am.  But this is more to the point I was getting at.

 

If the primary audience of gen con is active church membership and we are seeing an increase in the number of talks reinforcing the idea that marriage is only between a man and a woman... what might that tell us?

 

It might tell us that the brethren (and the sisters, too) are aware that the members of the Church are subject to all sorts of influences from many sources.  And that some of those influences are peddling false ideas about the nature of marriage and family.

 

Among the most pernicious of these are those that purport to come from faithful Church members, but which oppose the Church's principled, unwavering position on this matter.