ERayR Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 Dealing with their own set of creations... where ever they are. By including ". . .and everything we cannot see". You kind of limit their options.
mfbukowski Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 Had a missionary ask me an interesting question in Gospel Principles today. He asked did Heavenly Father create all the stars we see in the night sky. I said , " I did not know, but the implication of various comments and hymns we have in the Church is no. But, I did not know if there was settled doctrine on the subject. Your comments please.This is disturbing. You are basically positing that we can know about things God doesn't know about. If WE stupid little worms can know something, God is just a tad ahead of us. If you want to believe that God is only in charge of this universe and that there are multiverses including universes our God does not control, that is another question but of course it is highly speculative, and totally irrelevant to our lives. I wouldn't lose sleep over it.
mfbukowski Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 Kolob is past the "second star to the right and straight on till morning" .That makes God a moderate Republican.
ERayR Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 That makes God a moderate Republican. I hear he and Mitt are quit close. 1
Stone holm Posted January 21, 2015 Author Posted January 21, 2015 This is disturbing. You are basically positing that we can know about things God doesn't know about. If WE stupid little worms can know something, God is just a tad ahead of us. If you want to believe that God is only in charge of this universe and that there are multiverses including universes our God does not control, that is another question but of course it is highly speculative, and totally irrelevant to our lives. I wouldn't lose sleep over it.Where did I posit that?
Guest Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 Had a missionary ask me an interesting question in Gospel Principles today. He asked did Heavenly Father create all the stars we see in the night sky. I said , " I did not know, but the implication of various comments and hymns we have in the Church is no. But, I did not know if there was settled doctrine on the subject. Your comments please.Millions of the stars we see have already died...the light we are seeing has just reached us.
mfbukowski Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) Where did I posit that?Well I can show it scripturally or philosophically, but for here, let's just make it scriptural. The other gets a little complicated.John 1:1 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2 The same was in the beginning with God.3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. D&C 93 36 The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth. 37 Light and truth forsake that evil one.God defines the worlds through his intelligence, which is likened to light, and all was created by the Word, the Logos What Logos really is about is rational structure. God creates the universe by giving it rational structure, as we use language to create the structure of ideas. So what God knows, he creates. He creates by knowing- that is why we LDS correctly speak of God "organizing" the universe out of "matter unorganized" Stars are not "matter unorganized". If we could see the limits of God's creation, if there is such a thing, we would not see it at all, because our minds would not be able to organize it. We would see it as literally no-thing, because "things" are organized and nameable as "Some-Thing" We cannot know what has not been organized by God because it is no-thing and our minds are too paltry to organize no-thing. We cannot even imagine nothingness, really So long story short, if we can see the stars, they were organized by God AS God in one way or another. Perhaps we have exalted "siblings" who reign over limited portions, but we share Our Father AS our God. For those interested, this can also be seen from a social constructivist position seeing God as the head of the "Social Trinity" with us in a relationship of Perichoresis, so we are part of the community which helps him define/construct reality as we know it That's the complicated part. It might just be best to stick to the scriptures. You might say that intelligence is represented by light- if it gives off light, AND we can perceive it, it is included in God's intelligence and therefore part of his creation. But of course all of that is metaphysics anyway. In other words, it is a faith based belief Edited January 21, 2015 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 Millions of the stars we see have already died...the light we are seeing has just reached us.And the dead ones have again recycled themselves into "matter unorganized" waiting for, maybe us, as sons and daughters of God to organize them again in our one eternal round.
intra Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 all you have to do is believe the scripture, and reject the false prophets and teachers, and you would not have confusion. it is clear:For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. (Colossians 1:16-17) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.(John 1:3) For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever.(Romans 11:36) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.(Genesis 1:1) he made the stars also.(Genesis 1:16) When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?(Psalms 8:3-4) By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.(Psalm 33:6) Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.(Nehemiah 9:6) Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.(Isaiah 40:26) Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.(Isaiah 45:11-12) how long will you say "we believe the Bible" and not believe anything that is written in it? A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.(James 1:
mfbukowski Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. (Colossians 1:16-17) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.(John 1:3) For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever.(Romans 11:36) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.(Genesis 1:1) he made the stars also.(Genesis 1:16) When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?(Psalms 8:3-4) By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.(Psalm 33:6) Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.(Nehemiah 9:6) Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.(Isaiah 40:26) Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.(Isaiah 45:11-12) Yeah, that's what I said. Well I guess that ends the thread. Edited January 21, 2015 by mfbukowski
intra Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 Yeah, that's what I said. no. your pagan god is emasculated and can only "organize" the true God "creates" 1
intra Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 * i should say your pagan "gods" -- since you have so many
Skylla Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 Intra has been banned due to their inability to have a polite discussion.Skylla
mfbukowski Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 Intra has been banned due to their inability to have a polite discussion.SkyllaBravo! 4
Stone holm Posted January 22, 2015 Author Posted January 22, 2015 Well I can show it scripturally or philosophically, but for here, let's just make it scriptural. The other gets a little complicated.John 1:1 D&C 93 God defines the worlds through his intelligence, which is likened to light, and all was created by the Word, the Logos What Logos really is about is rational structure. God creates the universe by giving it rational structure, as we use language to create the structure of ideas. So what God knows, he creates. He creates by knowing- that is why we LDS correctly speak of God "organizing" the universe out of "matter unorganized" Stars are not "matter unorganized". If we could see the limits of God's creation, if there is such a thing, we would not see it at all, because our minds would not be able to organize it. We would see it as literally no-thing, because "things" are organized and nameable as "Some-Thing" We cannot know what has not been organized by God because it is no-thing and our minds are too paltry to organize no-thing. We cannot even imagine nothingness, really So long story short, if we can see the stars, they were organized by God AS God in one way or another. Perhaps we have exalted "siblings" who reign over limited portions, but we share Our Father AS our God. For those interested, this can also be seen from a social constructivist position seeing God as the head of the "Social Trinity" with us in a relationship of Perichoresis, so we are part of the community which helps him define/construct reality as we know it That's the complicated part. It might just be best to stick to the scriptures. You might say that intelligence is represented by light- if it gives off light, AND we can perceive it, it is included in God's intelligence and therefore part of his creation. But of course all of that is metaphysics anyway. In other words, it is a faith based beliefAre you arguing that the Word referenced by John was an organizing structure rather than Christ? That sounds a bit Protestant rather than Mormon?
mfbukowski Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 Are you arguing that the Word referenced by John was an organizing structure rather than Christ? That sounds a bit Protestant rather than Mormon?That is not even possible. "Organization" does not come from "structures" which are pre-existing. Beings create/organize structures. There are no structures without an intelligence to make them. Jehovah used his intelligence- "The Light of Christ" to organize worlds. And again, the distinction between creating and organizing is non-existent. Who "created" the Trump Tower? Was Donald out there with a hammer and nails? Who came up with and executed the plan, found the location, hired the contractors etc?
Robert F. Smith Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 ...................................................................................... Jehovah used his intelligence- "The Light of Christ" to organize worlds. And again, the distinction between creating and organizing is non-existent. Who "created" the Trump Tower? Was Donald out there with a hammer and nails? Who came up with and executed the plan, found the location, hired the contractors etc?The Donald.
Stargazer Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) True Kolob is not where Heavenly Father resides, but I have always understood it to be the star around which His home planet revolves. I think the discussion of the meaning of the sky, highlights the fact that "universe" has different connotations. I used it in the scientific sense as including all of the stars and space. So in my opinion, God would be within this universe along with His forbears and siblings. Well, I would have to disagree. I don't believe that God dwells within this Universe (since to create it He would have to be outside of it). The entire universe that our eyes and instruments can detect is essentially a bubble inside the place where God dwells, and is something that we cannot see or detect -- because it is outside of our Universe. Now, Kolob may perhaps be near what amounts to a Transporter Pad (a la Star Trek) that when entered takes one to God's presence. Or, at least, the region where God dwells. Or maybe not. Edited January 23, 2015 by Stargazer
Robert F. Smith Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 Well, I would have to disagree. I don't believe that God dwells within this Universe (since to create it He would have to be outside of it). The entire universe that our eyes and instruments can detect is essentially a bubble inside the place where God dwells, and is something that we cannot see or detect -- because it is outside of our Universe. Now, Kolob may perhaps be near what amounts to a Transporter Pad (a la Star Trek) that when entered takes one to God's presence. Or, at least, the region where God dwells. Or maybe not.“Scientists Confirm That Reality is an Illusion - Our 3D Universe Is A Hologram,” May 4, 2012, online at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qngieHWZXcM . “Do We Live in a Computer Simulation Run by Our Descendants? Researchers Say Idea Can Be Tested,” ScienceDaily, Dec 10, 2012, online at http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121210132752.htm 1
Stargazer Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 “Scientists Confirm That Reality is an Illusion - Our 3D Universe Is A Hologram,” May 4, 2012, online at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qngieHWZXcM . “Do We Live in a Computer Simulation Run by Our Descendants? Researchers Say Idea Can Be Tested,” ScienceDaily, Dec 10, 2012, online at http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121210132752.htmHeh. Since watching The Matrix trilogy I have become convinced that that notion is at least an arguable alternative to the Universe we see. Not that I expect Morpheus to pop up with a red or blue pill.But the entire observable universe, as well as everything we see, feel and hear could just as well be a complete illusion, and God is just putting us through a series of perfect simulations. In fact, YOU might not even exist except as an element in the simulation that God is putting me through.You would expect God to be able to run such a good simulation that it passes the Turing test will flying colors.Fat chance anyone could prove or disprove this.
Nofear Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 “Scientists Confirm That Reality is an Illusion - Our 3D Universe Is A Hologram,” May 4, 2012, online at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qngieHWZXcM . “Do We Live in a Computer Simulation Run by Our Descendants? Researchers Say Idea Can Be Tested,” ScienceDaily, Dec 10, 2012, online at http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121210132752.htmWhile these idea have their proponents I would venture to say that both views are far from a majority view among cosmologists. Popular among LDS transhumanists though. While speaking of minorities, I personally would be quite comfortable with the domain of our Heavenly Father being more-or-less just the Milky Way galaxy. Among the several 100 billion stars or so stars in our galaxy, many holding habitable worlds, it seems there is ample and enough to merit the "numberless" description. Even though they are "without number" to mortals, the actual number of temporally concurrent worlds in God's Kingdom is finite. 1
mfbukowski Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 The Donald.Exactly.So one could take "God created the earth" perfectly literally and still not conclude that it meant ex nihilo creation any more than The Donald "created" the Trump empire ex nihilo. Creative people create things all the time and we never conclude they did it ex nihilo.I have some old macrame to prove it 2
Stone holm Posted January 24, 2015 Author Posted January 24, 2015 Well, I would have to disagree. I don't believe that God dwells within this Universe (since to create it He would have to be outside of it). The entire universe that our eyes and instruments can detect is essentially a bubble inside the place where God dwells, and is something that we cannot see or detect -- because it is outside of our Universe. Now, Kolob may perhaps be near what amounts to a Transporter Pad (a la Star Trek) that when entered takes one to God's presence. Or, at least, the region where God dwells. Or maybe not.Yeah, this assumes that the various references to the universe mean the same thing that scientists mean when they use the term, which I do not think can actually be squared with the King Follett Sermon or what specifics have been said about Heavenly Father. The specifics always trump the generalities and hyperbole.
mfbukowski Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 (edited) Well, I would have to disagree. I don't believe that God dwells within this Universe (since to create it He would have to be outside of it). The entire universe that our eyes and instruments can detect is essentially a bubble inside the place where God dwells, and is something that we cannot see or detect -- because it is outside of our Universe. Now, Kolob may perhaps be near what amounts to a Transporter Pad (a la Star Trek) that when entered takes one to God's presence. Or, at least, the region where God dwells.Or maybe not.So one cannot build a house and decide to live in it?Also we need to remember that science does not observe "what is" it observes only what the human brain organizes,and nothing more. Edited January 24, 2015 by mfbukowski 1
ERayR Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 So one cannot build a house and decide to live in it? Unless one is a building contractor that is usually the case.
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