Did God Create Ebola?

[MormonFreeThinker]

You might want to reformulate the entire issue to take account of several additional possibilities, rather than foreclosing them.

After all, we find in the smallest to largest forms of life that there are predators/predation.  Why is Ebola a better candidate than a lion? 

 

The spirit tells us that it is wrong to kill a lion, we feel guilty if we do. 

If we will the Ebola virus and other plagues, we feel good. 

[Stone holm]

God created "all things" period.  What good is some distant star in the universe that we can't even see with our naked eye or benefit from in any way?  What good is it for us?  Yet we know it is there and we know that God created (organized) it.

 

 

 

If by create you mean make from nothing, then God did not "create" us either. 

God did create (organize) all matter, the same as he organized us.  The ebola virus could not exist outside of the laws of God.  The laws of God/universe brought it into existence.

Where do we find the universe as being the same as Creation, or that Our Heavenly Father created the laws of physics?

[bluebell]

The spirit tells us that it is wrong to kill a lion, we feel guilty if we do.

If we will the Ebola virus and other plagues, we feel good.

Can I get a reference for where it says that it's wrong to kill a lion?

Personally I wouldn't want to kill one, but many good Christian people do. Certain African tribes often kill them as well. Are these people sinning?

[Stone holm]

Can I get a reference for where it says that it's wrong to kill a lion?

Personally I wouldn't want to kill one, but many good Christian people do. Certain African tribes often kill them as well. Are these people sinning?

Humans tend to have greater sympathy with life forms that most closely resemble us, hence greater sympathy for lions than spiders, and greater sympathy for spiders than bacteria.

[bluebell]

Humans tend to have greater sympathy with life forms that most closely resemble us, hence greater sympathy for lions than spiders, and greater sympathy for spiders than bacteria.

 

Oh definitely!

 

But MFT is claiming that the Spirit testifies to us that it's wrong to kill such fluffy creatures and I would like a reference for that.  

[WysteriaBlue]

I thought God asked us to be good stewards...and to 'have dominion over all.'

so over-hunting the man-eating lions is out unless they are attacking me, even if they are fluffy.

Personally, not humanly possible for me to have any sympathy for spiders or copperheads...so I'm out of the race for this calling.. 

Guess that leaves just bacteria. 

 

Guess the world should be grateful I'm not in charge of making such judgments over the animal kingdom, the flora and fauna and fungi ...and which are wicked, evil, or insidious or righteous.

 

I'm just grateful that he was so creative and loved balance in all things....and gave us such wonderful and beautiful gifts...

(but they are still not welcome in my home.)  

.

[Robert F. Smith]

.....................................................

It is true that a Lion can be very dangerous, but many people like the Lion, they love seeing nature, and Lions can also be friendly. 

...........................................................

Please tell me something good about the Ebola virus. What is the point of Ebola virus? A lion has feelings, does Ebola feel? Does Ebola have free will? Ebola seems to be a creation of nature alone, not a creation of God. 

 

What about Cluster headaches, does God cause Cluster headaches?  What is the point for that extreme pain? 

............................................................   

Genesis 3:

14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

 

You seem to have in mind some sort of wonderful Pollyanna world, but experience and fact have long taught us that life is usually "nasty, brutish, and short" (Edmund Burke), with man as the top predator, and plenty of predators going down the food chain.  Why shouldn't Ebola have his lunch just like the rest of us?

[MormonFreeThinker]

You seem to have in mind some sort of wonderful Pollyanna world, but experience and fact have long taught us that life is usually "nasty, brutish, and short" (Edmund Burke), with man as the top predator, and plenty of predators going down the food chain.  Why shouldn't Ebola have his lunch just like the rest of us?

 

 

No, God knows we are going to suffer, but he does not cause our suffering. God knows we are going to be the victims of evil, but God does not create evil, that is my point. 

I do not take Genesis 3 literally. 

 

If we kill  a lion or a bear, we feel bad. If we kill Ebola, we feel good. Humanity wants Ebola to go away, but most people do not want lions or bears to go away. 

It will be wrong to kill an entire species of lions of bears, but it will be a good thing if we eliminate Ebola. 

 

My point is that God did not create Ebola. 

 

 Mormon Interpreter says, 

 

"This makes God directly responsible for every evil act, since he is the final cause of the beings that commit such acts and those beings’ proclivities"

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/endless-forms-most-beautiful-the-uses-and-abuses-of-evolutionary-biology-in-six-works/

Edited October 20, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[Robert F. Smith]

No, God knows we are going to suffer, but he does not cause our suffering. God knows we are going to be the victims of evil, but God does not create evil, that is my point. 

I do not take Genesis 3 literally. 

 

If we kill  a lion or a bear, we feel bad. If we kill Ebola, we feel good. Humanity wants Ebola to go away, but most people do not want lions or bears to go away. 

It will be wrong to kill an entire species of lions of bears, but it will be a good thing if we eliminate Ebola. 

 

My point is that God did not create Ebola.

Thus spake Zarathustra? 

 

Mormon Interpreter says, 

 

"This makes God directly responsible for every evil act, since he is the final cause of the beings that commit such acts and those beings’ proclivities"

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/endless-forms-most-beautiful-the-uses-and-abuses-of-evolutionary-biology-in-six-works/

You misunderstand the point being made by the article in Interpreter.  The critique is of a god who is the only prime mover in a universe of contingent beings (all life) completely dependent upon Him.  That is the normative god of Muslim-Judeo-Christian tradition (dogma).  LDS theology on the other hand posits no such prime mover, but finds that all life and material are coeternal with God.  That absolves Him of blame for deliberate and natural evil.

 

It does not answer the question of whether God created/organized the Ebola virus on Earth (or brought it from elsewhere).  However, your pat answers and opinions do great violence to everything we know of Earthlife and the sorts of microorganisms which exist here.

[MormonFreeThinker]

You misunderstand the point being made by the article in Interpreter.  The critique is of a god who is the only prime mover in a universe of contingent beings (all life) completely dependent upon Him.  

 

The Ebola Virus does not have free will, if God created it, God would be directly responsible. Why does the Ebola virus exist? What is the purpose? 

 

 

It does not answer the question of whether God created/organized the Ebola virus on Earth (or brought it from elsewhere).  However, your pat answers and opinions do great violence to everything we know of Earthlife and the sorts of microorganisms which exist here.

 

 

What is the evidence that God created Ebola? Life on Earth evolved, the scriptures do not talk about the creation of Abiogenesis and bacteria. It makes sense that God transformed bacteria to the first animals.  

It makes sense that God used material (bacteria) to create (using Evolution) animal life. I believe that Bacteria is the material that God used, it just makes sense.   

 

So again, what is the evidence that God created Ebola? The burden of proof falls on you. 

[ERayR]

The Ebola Virus does not have free will, if God created it, God would be directly responsible. Why does the Ebola virus exist? What is the purpose? 

 

Does a tree or a blade of grass or a corn plant etc, etc have free will?

 

 

What is the evidence that God created Ebola? Life on Earth evolved, the scriptures do not talk about the creation of Abiogenesis and bacteria. It makes sense that God transformed bacteria to the first animals.  

 

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

 

The transformation of which you speak may make sense to you but not to me.

 

It makes sense that God used material (bacteria) to create (using Evolution) animal life. I believe that Bacteria is the material that God used, it just makes sense.   

 

The transformation of which you speak may make sense to you but not to me.

 

So again, what is the evidence that God created Ebola? The burden of proof falls on you. 

 

Colossians 1:16

[bluebell]

 

 

My point is that God did not create Ebola. 

 

 

 

I think everyone else's point is that your point has not been proven, or well argued.

[pogi]

 

the scriptures do not talk about the creation of Abiogenesis and bacteria. It makes sense that God transformed bacteria to the first animals.  

 

The creation of abiogenesis? The creation was abiogenesis - we were made from lifeless dust.

 

Yes, the scriptures do speak of the creation of bacteria.  Perhaps not specifically, but they don't speak about the creation of kanagaroos specifically either.

 

.   "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made (John 1:3)." 

I don't know how John 1:3 is not evidence enough for you.  How can you refute it?  

Edited October 20, 2014 by pogi

[ERayR]

I think everyone else's point is that your point has not been proven, or well argued.

 

But it has been declared.

[MormonFreeThinker]

The creation of abiogenesis? The creation was abiogenesis - we were made from lifeless dust.

 

Yes, the scriptures do speak of the creation of bacteria.  "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made (John 1:3)."  Perhaps not specifically, but it doesn't speak about the creation of kanagaroos or bats either. 

 

I don't know how John 1:3 is not evidence enough for you.  How can you refute it?  If God did not create bacteria, then he is not the author of original life on Earth. 

 

"All things" Does that include matter? The infinite Universe? Evil? Our Intelligence? 

 

Literally "All things"?  

 

1 Corinthians 13:7  Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

Do we have to believe everything? 

 

 

Ebola may not be truly alive. 

 

Anyways, Abiogensis was probably a natural event, and Evolution works. 

Edited October 20, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[pogi]

"All things" Does that include matter? The infinite Universe? Evil? Our Intelligence? 

 

 

The scriptures states that all things that can be made (bacteria) were made by him. Matter was created (organized) by God, as was life.  Intelligence cannot be made, but it was organized into life as we know it.  Even the elements have intelligence, and in that sense free-will.  The elements obeyed the word of God - that is creation.  All things were created spiritually before they were created (organized) physically. 

Edited October 20, 2014 by pogi

[ERayR]

"All things" Does that include matter? The infinite Universe? Evil? Our Intelligence? 

 

Literally "All things"?  

 

1 Corinthians 13:7  Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

Do we have to believe everything? 

 

 

Ebola may not be truly alive. 

 

Anyways, Abiogensis was probably a natural event, and Evolution works. 

 

So let it be said.  So let it be done. (Pharoh in the Ten Commandments)

[WysteriaBlue]

I have to ask the question....what are you so afraid of?

 

We have no idea of the true implications of this outbreak of Ebola.  millions may die, a potentially worse outbreak may start, the mass murderer nuclear carrying enemy of 2016 may be killed by this outbreak, the world may learn how to share scientific knowledge in a better way can come up with not only a cure for Ebola but for AIDS too, it will be a huge culling of the heard of all countries and all peoples, we will show compassion and overcome this plague and create a stronger more compassionate discourse between nations, the African nations will see the error in such warlike stances and come together to heal the continent and begin a new life of prosperity, God is at fault, you are at fault, we are all at fault in our complacency, natural evolution works to such a high degree that we will all die, Ebola will kill all the cows in the world and global warming will end and the hole in the ozone will heal itself....There are MILLIONS and BILLIONS of possibilities both good and evil and neither....Why does something or someONE have to be at fault or to blame???  We canNOT know what real implications and results are happening due to each of our free agency...the pain we cause, the hope we share, the ills we heal, and the violence we provoke.

 

What are you so afraid of?   Why so much anger and gnashing of teeth over who to blame?

What are we doing to overcome the ills of the world is so much more important a question...

the relationships we have with ourselves, our God and each other is the key and that which Richard Dawkins will not address for good reason and says quite succinctly...God does not come up in the lab....well neither does love..well, great...he is quite wise in his area and a great scientist...good for him.  I truly hope he's working on the evolutionary process of Ebola to help the other scientist's come up with a cure.

So, what are you so afraid of?

What will fill the void in your heart?

What do you really want?

 

wb

[pogi]

Anyways, Abiogensis was probably a natural event, and Evolution works. 

 

My birth was a natural event too, does that mean that I was not created by God?  

[MormonFreeThinker]

Thus spake Zarathustra? 

 

You misunderstand the point being made by the article in Interpreter.  

 

The same interpreter article says, "A final advantage of the LDS framework is compelling to me, though others may not find it so. I like the idea of evo-bio mechanisms at least playing some role in the development of creatures that impact us so terribly. I prefer to think that HIV was not concocted in God’s laboratory. I do not like the idea of him crafting the Yersinia pestis that would wipe out at least a third of Europe. The malaria parasite and its mosquito vector were not his magnum opus. I do not think he had it in for the Ichneumonidae‘s dinner. I prefer, rather, to see these as “biologic tsunamis”— natural disasters which telestial natural processes make inevitable in some form. God regrets the suffering they cause, but will (by agreement with us and creation) not prevent them because of the necessities of the telestial state. (God did, however, enter into mortality to suffer all their effects with us and for us [Mosiah 13:28; Alma 7:11–13].)"

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/endless-forms-most-beautiful-the-uses-and-abuses-of-evolutionary-biology-in-six-works/

 

It is very interesting that Dr. Smith agrees with me, Dr. Smith he is one of the best thinkers in our church. 

 

pogi said, "My birth was a natural event too, does that mean that I was not created by God?" 

 

Quantum Mechanics 

Edited October 20, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[pogi]

pogi said, "My birth was a natural event too, does that mean that I was not created by God?" 

 

Quantum Mechanics 

 

How does that answer my question?  Can you elaborate?

 

 

 

The same interpreter article says, "A final advantage of the LDS framework is compelling to me, though others may not find it so. I like the idea of evo-bio mechanisms at least playing some role in the development of creatures that impact us so terribly. I prefer to think that HIV was not concocted in God’s laboratory. I do not like the idea of him crafting the Yersinia pestis that would wipe out at least a third of Europe. The malaria parasite and its mosquito vector were not his magnum opus. I do not think he had it in for the Ichneumonidae‘s dinner. I prefer, rather, to see these as “biologic tsunamis”— natural disasters which telestial natural processes make inevitable in some form. God regrets the suffering they cause, but will (by agreement with us and creation) not prevent them because of the necessities of the telestial state. (God did, however, enter into mortality to suffer all their effects with us and for us [Mosiah 13:28; Alma 7:11–13].)"

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/endless-forms-most-beautiful-the-uses-and-abuses-of-evolutionary-biology-in-six-works/

 

It is very interesting that Dr. Smith agrees with me, Dr. Smith he is one of the best thinkers in our church. 

 

"I do not like the idea of him [God] crafting Yersinia pestis that would wipe out a third of Europe."  - This is a demonstration of Dr. Smith's personal bias, and not of his scientific or spiritual brilliance.  I don't find it interesting that you both are basing your opinions on personal bias at all.  Natural human reaction? Yes.  Brilliant?  Not so much. 

 

What is so wrong with death anyway?  Why must death be evil?  What would the state of the world be today if there were never any natural disasters or  infections thinning vast populations throughout history?  The world would be bursting at the seams-populated and exhausted of resources.  Just imagine what that world would look like?  I would not want to live in it.  Instead of infections thinning out populations, it would be man thinning out populations in unsavory ways.  Something would have to balance the scale.  Perhaps God is merciful by providing us with an escape from such an ugly inevitability.  One could argue that the Earth itself and all of man might not be alive today without such thinning of populations.    All of the suffering and all of the death is ultimately swallowed up in christ and are for but a brief moment.  That brief moment of suffering and death provides for generations of life, much like a forest fire.  Forest fires might seem disturbing at first, but are blessings to entire ecosystems in the end. 

 

When you view death as a door to more brilliant life and a space and opportunity for more earth life, it is not such an awful thing. 

Edited October 20, 2014 by pogi

[MormonFreeThinker]

 

 

What is so wrong with death anyway?  Why must death be evil?  What would the state of the world be today if there were never any natural disasters or  infections thinning vast populations throughout history?  

 

Please read what Dr. Smith wrote. 

 

What is so wrong with death anyway?  Why must death be evil? 

 

What about Cluster Heachaches? Do you believe that God causes Cluster Heachaches? What is the purpose for that? In my opinion, Cluster Heachaches are just a pointless pain. Cluster Heachaches are very very painful, but they are not life-threatening. 

 

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/cluster-headache/basics/definition/con-20031706

[bluebell]

Please read what Dr. Smith wrote. 

 

 

What about Cluster Heachaches? Do you believe that God causes Cluster Heachaches? What is the purpose for that? In my opinion, Cluster Heachaches are just a pointless pain. Cluster Heachaches are very very painful, but they are not life-threatening. 

 

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/cluster-headache/basics/definition/con-20031706

 

What kind of pain due to illness or a dis-functioning body isn't 'pointless' in your opinion?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

There is no, "This poll is dumb" option.

[pogi]

What about Cluster Heachaches? 

 

I ask why is death so evil anyway, and your response is what about cluster headaches?