Did The Exodus Really Happen? Rabbi David Wolpe On The Passover Story

[The Nehor]

I agree - getting stuck on the literal story can get in the way of the spiritual lesson behind the story.

And getting stuck on the spiritual story can get in the way of learning the blatant and literal lesson of the story.

[Gray]

And getting stuck on the spiritual story can get in the way of learning the blatant and literal lesson of the story.

 

On the contrary, I don't think there are any meaningful lessons to be had at the literal level of any story. You always have to dig deeper and ask what can you get out of the story. Otherwise it's just a history lesson. 

Edited April 21, 2014 by Gray

[The Nehor]

On the contrary, I don't think there are any meaningful lessons to be had at the literal level of any story. You always have to dig deeper and ask what can you get out of the story. Otherwise it's just a history lesson.

Jesus rose from the dead and literally said that we would rise from the dead.

Now you can spiritualize it (most Christians do) or you can take the literal meaning or you can do both. If you only spiritualize it you are missing the point.

[mnn727]

Because whether something actually happens matters. My understanding of Norse myth would be VERY different if there was an Odin, a Thor, and a Loki with giants and trolls and a pending Ragnarok. I am not going to treat the parting of the Red Sea the same way if it never actually happened.

Why not? I believe much of the Old Testament are myths and faith promoting stories, you can still lean lessons from them and they are the same lessons either way.

[The Nehor]

Why not? I believe much of the Old Testament are myths and faith promoting stories, you can still lean lessons from them and they are the same lessons either way.

No, they're not.

[daz2]

We used to tell stories about the handcart rescue (including in general conference) for faith promoting purposes that it turns out are not true (i.e., stories like the three rescuers all died because of it,, or stories that none of the survivors ever left the church). But everyone thought they were true. Those who know that the stories are not true have stopped relating them, but most people don't know they are false and keep telling them.

Suppose there were not careful researchers whose work showed that the traditional stories were wrong? Suppose it were 200 years from now, and no one knew that the stories were false, but they kept being taught. What difference would it make? What difference does it make to us now to know they are false?

[daz2]

I don't "know" whether the exodus really happened, or Jesus really existed, or that Joseph Smith really received revelations from God or if Job's experience is historical or if the prodigal son was historical. But I can live my life as if those things happened. And that is what I try to do. I do not know how one could prove any of those things conclusively true or false.

[Gray]

Jesus rose from the dead and literally said that we would rise from the dead.

Now you can spiritualize it (most Christians do) or you can take the literal meaning or you can do both. If you only spiritualize it you are missing the point.

 

Okay, what's the lesson at the top level of that story? That we're going to rise from the dead? How can I apply that in my life?

Edited April 21, 2014 by Gray

[Anteojito]

Why not? I believe much of the Old Testament are myths and faith promoting stories, you can still lean lessons from them and they are the same lessons either way.

But certain parts of the OT have to be true for other parts of other scriptures to be true. If for example, the tower of Babel is just a faith promoting story, then how does one explain the Jaredites? Are they just a faith promoting story? If they are, what does that say about the whole BOM then?

Edited April 21, 2014 by Anteojito

[bjw]

But certain parts of the OT have to be true for other parts of other scriptures to be true. If for example, the tower of Babel is just a faith promoting story, then how does one explain the Jaredites? Are they just a faith promoting story? If they are, what does that say about the whole BOM then?

Also, Christ fulfilled the law of Moses, so we must have a Moses. I seem to remember hearing somewhere once that the stories in Exodus may have happened somewhat differently, and that some have Egyptian paralells, like Moses found in the reeds. Also, that when the Exodus occured the people were let go eventually by Pharaoh, and some secular scholars try to say it never happened. However, I think to believe our tradition it seems like you would have to believe it is true.

[Anteojito]

Also, Christ fulfilled the law of Moses, so we must have a Moses. I seem to remember hearing somewhere once that the stories in Exodus may have happened somewhat differently, and that some have Egyptian paralells, like Moses found in the reeds. Also, that when the Exodus occured the people were let go eventually by Pharaoh, and some secular scholars try to say it never happened. However, I think to believe our tradition it seems like you would have to believe it is true.

Sure. The whole story does not need to be true but certain parts would. 

[The Nehor]

Okay, what's the lesson at the top level of that story? That we're going to rise from the dead? How can I apply that in my life?

 

It's simple knowledge. The historical fact has an impact on your life (you will live again). Knowledge is important. You can apply it however you like.

[Sleeper Cell]

I guess it depends on what aspect of Jesus is more important to you. Do you find more value in the wish fulfillment being able to overcome death in some supernatural way, or do you find value in His spiritual teachings? It's not a dichotomy - you can find value in both. But the promise of eternal life to me isn't a spiritual teaching. Spiritual teachings are things that can help us to become better, more complete people. Spiritual teachings elevate our present state. Life after death is future state.

 

So the promise of eternal life does not help us to become better, more complete people?  Are you serious?  The entire point of the Plan of Salvation is to help us become better, more complete people. 

 

Strictly from a secular viewpoint, surely a belief in an afterlife where we will be held accountable for our behavior while in this life has encouraged some people to live a better life. Paul, for example.

 

BTW, if you remove the “supernatural” from the teachings of Jesus, how do His remaining teachings differ significantly from those of other great religious teachers, when it comes to helping us to become “better, more complete people?”

[rodheadlee]

Num 23:19 19 God is not a man, that he should ^alie; neither the son of man, that he should ^brepent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he ^cspoken, and shall he not make it good?

 

If the Exodus story is not true then God isn't God. How many promises to Abraham, Issac, Jacob and Joseph depend on God having Moses lead them out of Egypt to the promised land?. Are all of these promises metaphorical?

[Helen47]

When I read the book The Bible Unearthed by archaeologists Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman and saw how much of the story of the Exodus and Conquest were myth, I re-experienced that same feeling when I read New Approaches to the Book of Mormon and Ray Matheny's paper on archaeology and the Book of Mormon. What is left to believe?

[Calm]

Did you believe the Book of Mormon before reading New Approaches?

[Helen47]

I read Matheny's paper first provided to me by a friend. I use to subscribe to newsletters from BYU archaeology back in the days of Sperry and Jakeman.

[Calm]

You didn't answer my question. Did you believe in the Book of Mormon as scripture of an ancient people at that time?

[Helen47]

I think I did, so long ago, but then I started reading Dialogue, then later sunstone.

[Benjamin McGuire]

The Nehor writes:

It's simple knowledge. The historical fact has an impact on your life (you will live again). Knowledge is important. You can apply it however you like.

But this is only a relevant observation if it is the only way in which that simple knowledge can enter your life.

 

Joseph Smith, for example, didn't need to read the accounts in the New Testament to observe that Jesus Christ had been resurrected - he had his own epiphany in the First Vision. I don't have a need to recognize the historicity of the Exodus account as the only way to understand my relationship to God. The impact of the Exodus (while it may well be very important for others) has virtually no impact on my life. My sources of knowledge of far more direct and personal than a textual tradition that has little claim to authenticity.

[Gray]

It's simple knowledge. The historical fact has an impact on your life (you will live again). Knowledge is important. You can apply it however you like.

 

I don't know how to apply it. At the surface level it's just a statement of fact, not a spiritual teaching

[The Nehor]

I don't know how to apply it. At the surface level it's just a statement of fact, not a spiritual teaching

If facts like that have no impact on your life then I pity you.

[Gray]

 

So the promise of eternal life does not help us to become better, more complete people?  Are you serious?  The entire point of the Plan of Salvation is to help us become better, more complete people. 

 

 

 

I can only speak for myself. The answer is, I don't think so. How do you apply something like that to your own life? Your view on the permanence or transience of existence might affect your outlook, but it could be for good or ill either way. 

 

 

 

Strictly from a secular viewpoint, surely a belief in an afterlife where we will be held accountable for our behavior while in this life has encouraged some people to live a better life. Paul, for example.

 

 

 

 

 

Some people are inspired by not believing in an afterlife to live better lives, reasoning that this one is the only life they have, and they should make the best of it. Fear of judgement or desire for reward is not a very noble motivation, anyway.

 

 

 

 

BTW, if you remove the “supernatural” from the teachings of Jesus, how do His remaining teachings differ significantly from those of other great religious teachers, when it comes to helping us to become “better, more complete people?”

 

 

They don't differ a lot. They're universal in nature. That's one of the reasons I think they are true. They speak to something universal about the human spirit, and about goodness that we can all understand. 

Edited April 22, 2014 by Gray

[Gray]

Num 23:19 19 God is not a man, that he should ^alie; neither the son of man, that he should ^brepent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he ^cspoken, and shall he not make it good?

 

If the Exodus story is not true then God isn't God. How many promises to Abraham, Issac, Jacob and Joseph depend on God having Moses lead them out of Egypt to the promised land?. Are all of these promises metaphorical?

 

All scripture it written by human beings, coming through human consciousness. God doesn't disappear if an old text turns out to be more metaphor than anything else. 

[Gray]

If facts like that have no impact on your life then I pity you.

 

I said I didn't know how to apply it, not that it wasn't impactful