DBMormon Posted April 4, 2014 Author Posted April 4, 2014 Elsa Johnson? and who is that? John Johnson Farm in Hiram Ohio... Joseph healed her arthritic arm and the family joined the Church 1
Duncan Posted April 4, 2014 Posted April 4, 2014 Obviously, if we're going to say that "healing" doesn't actually mean "healing", that changes everything. I would also point out that you don't necessarily need the Priesthood to make someone feel better or be more comfortable. This is where the placebo effect is most powerful, so there are two forces at work in these situations. I suppose we don't know and we don't know which 3 camps a sick person falls into but we who hold the Priesthood have been asked to give blessings
Alvino Posted April 5, 2014 Posted April 5, 2014 Elder Oaks April 2010 "healing the sick""The words spoken in a healing blessing can edify and energize the faith of those who hear them, but the effect of the blessing is dependent upon faith and the Lord’s will, not upon the words spoken by the elder who officiated." Also, that is a strange statement from Elder Oaks. The words of the Priesthood holder giving the blessing can 'energize' the faith of the person being given the blessing, the effect of the blessing depends on the faith of the participants, but it doesn't matter what the PH says in the blessing. Am I missing something that will make this make sense?
CMZ Posted April 5, 2014 Posted April 5, 2014 My MTC companion had been told in his patriarchal blessing that he had the gift to heal. Then, shortly after getting the Melchizedek Priesthood but before reporting to the MTC (which was not a very long period of time) he had four different people call him up and ask him for blessings of healing. I think they were all people that did not know him very well and did not live right near him and none of them knew what his patriarchal blessing had said.
CMZ Posted April 5, 2014 Posted April 5, 2014 In the recently released *By Our Rites of Worship* I have a chapter on the development of healing ritual in the church, that addresses these issues. Where can I find this *By Our Rites of Worship* document?
janderich Posted April 5, 2014 Posted April 5, 2014 Consider the event described in the NT where a woman with an issue of blood simply touched Christ's robe and was healed. Christ seemingly was unaware of her presence until she touched the robe and He felt virtue leave Him. He spoke about the great faith of this woman. Faith did the healing ,as I believe it does in most if not all cases. How it works I have no idea. Is the gift of healing then the gift of faith in the power to heal?Yes, in the power to heal or to be healed. Matt 13:58 he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith (NIV)Acts 14:9 perceiving that he had faith to be healedD&C 42:48-51: he who has faith in the Lord to be healed shall be...D&C 46:19 spiritual gift of faith to be healed...faith to heal
janderich Posted April 5, 2014 Posted April 5, 2014 Also, that is a strange statement from Elder Oaks. The words of the Priesthood holder giving the blessing can 'energize' the faith of the person being given the blessing, the effect of the blessing depends on the faith of the participants, but it doesn't matter what the PH says in the blessing. Am I missing something that will make this make sense?For those listening, it does matter what the priesthood holder says, see my post #12. In essence the right words can help those lacking in faith. But in order to heal or be healed it simply requires both the person blessing and being blessed to exercise faith in the whisperings of the Spirit. The key is to get the spirit so that we know the blessing we have been given or should give, and then exercise faith in what we have heard from the Lord. When we cannot discern the spirit we cannot adequately give or receive the blessing because there will be doubt about the blessing.
Alvino Posted April 5, 2014 Posted April 5, 2014 (edited) For those listening, it does matter what the priesthood holder says, see my post #12. In essence the right words can help those lacking in faith. But in order to heal or be healed it simply requires both the person blessing and being blessed to exercise faith in the whisperings of the Spirit. The key is to get the spirit so that we know the blessing we have been given or should give, and then exercise faith in what we have heard from the Lord. When we cannot discern the spirit we cannot adequately give or receive the blessing because there will be doubt about the blessing. Ok, so you mean that as far as the physics of blessings it doesn't matter what the PH says, it's the faith that matters. And, you seem to agree, what the PH says while blessing can have an impact on the healing (because it can 'energize' the faith of those involved), right? I don't see how this dispenses of the problem. The issue is that the words do make a difference. Some words would inspire the recipient, some wouldn't. If that can make a difference between being healed or not, I'd say that is enough to say the words do matter for the effect of the blessing (IOW, it is a variable). Elder Oaks says they don't. You quoted from Oaks the following:"Fortunately, the words spoken in a healing blessing are not essential to its healing effect. If faith is sufficient and if the Lord wills it, the afflicted person will be healed or blessed whether the officiator speaks those words or not. " To which I'd say, yes, IF faith is sufficient AND the Lord wills it, then the afflicted will be healed. My point is that some words (and not others) can make a difference in whether the first of the two conditions holds or not. That is, the effect of the blessing can depend on the words spoken, too, (denying what Oaks says in his last sentence quoted in the OP). Also, I don't think you answered the conflict between the "Concepts" provided in the OP. I take it having the gift of healing means something like saying that two PH, one of them with the gift, the other one without it, having the same amount of faith, will get people healed at different rates all other things being equal (i.e. same faith from the person receiving the blessing, God wills it just as much, etc). If so, then not all blessings are created equal, at least as effects go, if we just change the person giving them. Edited April 5, 2014 by Alvino
DBMormon Posted April 5, 2014 Author Posted April 5, 2014 Also, that is a strange statement from Elder Oaks. The words of the Priesthood holder giving the blessing can 'energize' the faith of the person being given the blessing, the effect of the blessing depends on the faith of the participants, but it doesn't matter what the PH says in the blessing. Am I missing something that will make this make sense?I remember when this talk was given and felt the whole talk was odd to me. It went against assumptions I had made and against scriptures as I understood them. Either it matters who we go to (some have the gift of healing) or it doesn;t (anyone can give the blessing and it is based on your faith and not one's healing ability)
Duncan Posted April 5, 2014 Posted April 5, 2014 it's the faith to heal and the faith to be healed, something I had forgotten. I wonder too when do you even seek a blessing? I know I don't every time I get sick, just because I know that it will pass but something new medically speaking or just comfort to get you through it, among other reasons I would imagine
janderich Posted April 5, 2014 Posted April 5, 2014 (edited) Ok, so you mean that as far as the physics of blessings it doesn't matter what the PH says, it's the faith that matters. And, you seem to agree, what the PH says while blessing can have an impact on the healing (because it can 'energize' the faith of those involved), right? I don't see how this dispenses of the problem. The issue is that the words do make a difference. Some words would inspire the recipient, some wouldn't. If that can make a difference between being healed or not, I'd say that is enough to say the words do matter for the effect of the blessing (IOW, it is a variable). Elder Oaks says they don't. You quoted from Oaks the following:"Fortunately, the words spoken in a healing blessing are not essential to its healing effect. If faith is sufficient and if the Lord wills it, the afflicted person will be healed or blessed whether the officiator speaks those words or not. " To which I'd say, yes, IF faith is sufficient AND the Lord wills it, then the afflicted will be healed. My point is that some words (and not others) can make a difference in whether the first of the two conditions holds or not. That is, the effect of the blessing can depend on the words spoken, too, (denying what Oaks says in his last sentence quoted in the OP). Also, I don't think you answered the conflict between the "Concepts" provided in the OP. I take it having the gift of healing means something like saying that two PH, one of them with the gift, the other one without it, having the same amount of faith, will get people healed at different rates all other things being equal (i.e. same faith from the person receiving the blessing, God wills it just as much, etc). If so, then not all blessings are created equal, at least as effects go, if we just change the person giving them.Yes, I see your point. Words do can have some impact. But I think Elder Oak's point is that they are not essential, while faith is. I see it in this fashion, faith leads directly to healing while words may lead indirectly to it but only by encouraging faith. Edited April 5, 2014 by janderich
janderich Posted April 5, 2014 Posted April 5, 2014 I remember when this talk was given and felt the whole talk was odd to me. It went against assumptions I had made and against scriptures as I understood them. Either it matters who we go to (some have the gift of healing) or it doesn;t (anyone can give the blessing and it is based on your faith and not one's healing ability)There is no such thing as "healing ability" apart from faith. Or said differently, there is no independent power given to us that we do not qualify for. Those who exercise the faith to heal are given the power to heal, or the gift to heal. Different people have faith in different aspects of the gospel and thus are given different gifts. But God is no respecter of persons, if one qualifies for a gift they obtain that gift. I can't see how it would be any other way.
CMZ Posted April 5, 2014 Posted April 5, 2014 There is no such thing as "healing ability" apart from faith. Or said differently, there is no independent power given to us that we do not qualify for. Those who exercise the faith to heal are given the power to heal, or the gift to heal. Different people have faith in different aspects of the gospel and thus are given different gifts. But God is no respecter of persons, if one qualifies for a gift they obtain that gift. I can't see how it would be any other way. Yet people still possess the gifts of the Spirit in their own unique ways: Doctrine & Covenants Section 46 11 For all have not every gift given unto them; for there are many gifts, and to every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God. 12 To some is given one, and to some is given another, that all may be profited thereby.
splendidsun Posted April 5, 2014 Posted April 5, 2014 Where can I find this *By Our Rites of Worship* document? CMZ, it is book that was released by RSC and Deseret Book. Edited by Daniel Belnap. It is a pretty good volume.
CMZ Posted April 5, 2014 Posted April 5, 2014 CMZ, it is book that was released by RSC and Deseret Book. Edited by Daniel Belnap. It is a pretty good volume. Now that you put it that way it reminds me I went to a fireside a few months back where the speaker I think mentioned having something to do with this book, maybe having written a chapter in it.
cinepro Posted April 5, 2014 Posted April 5, 2014 (edited) Don't forget that we now also have to have the faith not to be healed. Elder Bednar told of visiting this couple in the hospital, being asked to give a priesthood blessing, and asking the husband an unplanned but inspired question. “If it is the will of our Heavenly Father, do you have the faith not to be healed?”As Elder Bednar counseled with this faithful couple, they “increasingly understood” that a blessing of healing could only be received if they had the faith not to be healed and were “willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon [them]” (Mosiah 3:19). Elder Bednar Counsels Those Facing Adversity So, now when someone isn't healed it might be because they had the faith to be healed, but didn't have the faith not to be healed, so it was a no go...? Edited April 5, 2014 by cinepro 2
CMZ Posted April 5, 2014 Posted April 5, 2014 Don't forget that we know also have to have the faith not to be healed. So, now when someone isn't healed it might be because they had the faith to be healed, but didn't have the faith not to be healed, so it was a no go...? I think in some cases it would be true.
janderich Posted April 5, 2014 Posted April 5, 2014 Don't forget that we now also have to have the faith not to be healed. So, now when someone isn't healed it might be because they had the faith to be healed, but didn't have the faith not to be healed, so it was a no go...? Faith is simply about knowing and following God's will. We must hear and understand the Lord's will and then follow it. The confusion only comes when we don't know the will of the Lord and then make assumptions.
ERMD Posted April 5, 2014 Posted April 5, 2014 (edited) I think the conference address by Elder Oaks is one that should be carefully studied by all. I have used it to teach classes to Aaronic priesthood holders. This is very interesting, however: https://www.lds.org/new-era/1975/06/classic-discourses-from-the-general-authorities-miracles?lang=eng I have used it as the topic for lessons as well. Edited April 5, 2014 by ERMD
Alvino Posted April 5, 2014 Posted April 5, 2014 There is no such thing as "healing ability" apart from faith. Or said differently, there is no independent power given to us that we do not qualify for. Those who exercise the faith to heal are given the power to heal, or the gift to heal. Different people have faith in different aspects of the gospel and thus are given different gifts. But God is no respecter of persons, if one qualifies for a gift they obtain that gift. I can't see how it would be any other way. yeah.. I don't know, man. That seems to make the whole "to some the gift of X is given, to others the gift of Y" rather trivial.
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