ERayR Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 Then you hit the obvious problem. If God's morality is so different from ours as to be utterly alien we might be better off with idols of wood or stone. If what God means by love is torture and what He means by righteousness is slaughter then we have nothing in common with Him. I don't think the morality is different but rather it is the scope of our understanding. We take the short term view and God takes the long term view.
The Nehor Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 Ha, exactly! Or maybe He'd curse an innocent fig tree. Or maybe He'd completely forgive the person that you thought was doing the most horrible thing imaginable and then turn around and condemn you. Or maybe He'd tell someone to give up all their money to the poor, and then allow the most expensive oil to be poured on Him instead of selling that oil for the benefit of the poor. On and on and on.That fig tree was an unfruitful liar. It had it coming.
ERayR Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 This also has problems. I also believe God is good. Still, with God allowing evil is almost the same as causing it. He could end disease on a whim, cause the disasters that plague humanity to stop, and cause the earth to spontaneously produce the food we need. He could silence the cries of a mother over a dead child by raising it, end the suffering of those coping with mental and emotional problems stemming from flaws in their body that cause huge amounts of suffering. He does not. I am convinced He does not for good reasons but God inflicts suffering (a definitively BAD thing) on us for our good. God has compassion and mercy and loves us but it is not the compassion, mercy, and love we desire. As CS Lewis once said most of us wish God loved us a little less so He was not so invested in correcting us, humbling us, perfecting us, and all the other things that hurt a hell of a lot. He is not causing evil. He is strictly adhering to the terms of this mortal probation.
stemelbow Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 He is not causing evil. He is strictly adhering to the terms of this mortal probation. And without Him this mortal probation would not be, and thus all that evil we see and deal with would not be either.
The Nehor Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 He is not causing evil. He is strictly adhering to the terms of this mortal probation.Which is allowing and causing evils for our good. Good evils if you will. Or, more likely, necessary evils.
stemelbow Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 Which is allowing and causing evils for our good. Good evils if you will. Or, more likely, necessary evils. That's our hope, right? I mean we don't know how necessarily they are until sometime after this life when our eyes our open and we see. I guess we can get a bit of a taste as to why things happen sometimes.
The Nehor Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 That's our hope, right? I mean we don't know how necessarily they are until sometime after this life when our eyes our open and we see. I guess we can get a bit of a taste as to why things happen sometimes.I know one lady who gets answers to the why questions for almost everything via Revelation. I am very jealous.
stemelbow Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 I know one lady who gets answers to the why questions for almost everything via Revelation. I am very jealous. Jealous? I'm just skeptical.
The Nehor Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 Jealous? I'm just skeptical.I would be too if she hadn't used her gift to explain several things in my own life with the Holy Ghost sitting there nodding to me the whole time.
stemelbow Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 I would be too if she hadn't used her gift to explain several things in my own life with the Holy Ghost sitting there nodding to me the whole time. By all means, send her my way so I can be jealous too. I need some lesson to learn by falling into that temptation too.
The Nehor Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 By all means, send her my way so I can be jealous too. I need some lesson to learn by falling into that temptation too.Hard to do, I lost contact a few years back when her family moved away.
stemelbow Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 Hard to do, I lost contact a few years back when her family moved away. No worries. I'm pretty much jealous of everyone for nearly everything. I forgot about that for a moment.
The Nehor Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 No worries. I'm pretty much jealous of everyone for nearly everything. I forgot about that for a moment.Good, it is a godly attribute. God admits to being jealous too.
Gray Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 Amen to the best way for individuals. I think it true that God has a better perspective of each of us knowing where we'll benefit most and so he'll direct. But back to my question....don't know if there is any way to actually determine the benefits of gospel living, only in a general sense, I suppose. I think any paradigm could be helpful at one stage in life, harmful in another, and again become helpful again in another. I don't think there is a wrong or right answer.
stemelbow Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 I think any paradigm could be helpful at one stage in life, harmful in another, and again become helpful again in another. I don't think there is a wrong or right answer. Share your perspective at church someday. I usually just get a lot of confused and concerned looks. Then I end up on someone's list as one who needs help. 1
Gray Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 Awesome. I love it. I don't think everyone is meant to fit into one little box. Let any of us who wish to get out and breath a little--stretch our legs and dare I say wander off a bit. Joseph Smith: "I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist, and not like the Latter-day Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine. (History of the Church, 5:340) 1
Gray Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 Share your perspective at church someday. I usually just get a lot of confused and concerned looks. Then I end up on someone's list as one who needs help. My bishop had a very confused look on his face as he signed my temple recommend. I admit I haven't really shared my views to other members of the ward.
JLHPROF Posted March 26, 2014 Author Posted March 26, 2014 Joseph Smith: "I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist, and not like the Latter-day Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine. (History of the Church, 5:340) This is one of my favorite quotes. I don't think that the current Church follows this as much as we'd like to think. I mean, we are allowed to believe whatever we want as long as we tell nobody and keep our mouths shut. But do we have any freedom to disagree.I mean, try telling someone that you believe Brigham was right about Adam-God and see how fast you're allowed to "believe as you please". You can believe it, but nobody had better ever find out. 1
The Nehor Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 This is one of my favorite quotes. I don't think that the current Church follows this as much as we'd like to think. I mean, we are allowed to believe whatever we want as long as we tell nobody and keep our mouths shut. But do we have any freedom to disagree.I mean, try telling someone that you believe Brigham was right about Adam-God and see how fast you're allowed to "believe as you please". You can believe it, but nobody had better ever find out. Lots of people know I believe in it though I openly admit I only know a part of it and am working on the rest. No one seems to mind.
Gray Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 This is one of my favorite quotes. I don't think that the current Church follows this as much as we'd like to think. I mean, we are allowed to believe whatever we want as long as we tell nobody and keep our mouths shut. But do we have any freedom to disagree.I mean, try telling someone that you believe Brigham was right about Adam-God and see how fast you're allowed to "believe as you please". You can believe it, but nobody had better ever find out. Good point. But it's a great quote nevertheless
JLHPROF Posted March 26, 2014 Author Posted March 26, 2014 Lots of people know I believe in it though I openly admit I only know a part of it and am working on the rest. No one seems to mind. Does that include your Bishop/SP? Because last I checked professing belief in Adam-God is considered heresy or apostasy and can lead to excommunication. You can believe it but can you tell people you believe it and stay a member?
ERayR Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 Which is allowing and causing evils for our good. Good evils if you will. Or, more likely, necessary evils. I think I can go with that.
ERayR Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 (edited) Jealous? I'm just skeptical. I'm not. I am skeptical of half the phone calls and e-mails I get but that's a different story. Edited March 26, 2014 by ERayR
The Nehor Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 Does that include your Bishop/SP? Because last I checked professing belief in Adam-God is considered heresy or apostasy and can lead to excommunication. You can believe it but can you tell people you believe it and stay a member? Yeah, my bishop knows. We chatted about it once at a ward bbq. Nothing in depth. Just that I think there is something to the whole thing. He half-jokingly told me never to teach it in Priesthood and I laughed and told him I would only do that on my last day. Everyone who knows me knows me well knows I am....eclectic with my beliefs but I teach the doctrine well and keep it to the plainly revealed truths and applications of them. I know that if I start teaching it I will likely face discipline and rightly so but I have no intention of doing so. I may be able to get away with a little more because I am pretty orthodox with what I teach from the pulpit and love the gospel and it shows. Usually the ones who get in trouble (in my experience) are the ones who can't shut up about their oddball beliefs in church settings or present it as some great secret. I talked to the missionaries about Adam-God last week (they asked me). Treat it casually, put it in context, tell the truth, and admit we don't know for sure. 3
Stargazer Posted March 27, 2014 Posted March 27, 2014 (edited) This also has problems. I also believe God is good. Still, with God allowing evil is almost the same as causing it. No, it isn't that way at all. One of my older sons was a constant problem growing up, willful, disobedient, if something was expected of him then he was definitely against it. Dropped out of high school, took up with a convicted felon who ended up stealing things from us and ruining my work vehicle, and when told that he must abandon his "friend" he said he would, but didn't. We had to kick him out of the house. Now, there he was, homeless. Very cruel of us wasn't it? It was utterly necessary for our own safety (this felonious friend had a record as long as his arm, btw). After a few years of being basically exiled from the family he finally came to his senses and started making his way back. He eventually got married, has two beautiful daughters, a steady job doing what he loves to do, and is in great favor among men. If we hadn't kicked him out of the house I have no idea what would have happened, but I don't think it would have been very pretty. For him or us. Father put us where He knew things would be rough, and he permitted evil to dwell in it so that we would be well and truly tested. It's exactly what it must be to produce what Father wants. And anyone who doesn't like it, well, Father has a place for you, too. You'll love it there! It's called the Terrestrial Kingdom. And it's a swell place! Edited March 27, 2014 by Stargazer 1
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