First The Nfl, Now Disney...

[rockpond]

Did you read the link I gave? Are you saying that there are no other laws given by God? Please explain the statement, "If ye love me keep my commandments". How does love play a role in keeping commandments? Can we love God and not keep his commandments?

I read some of the lesson you linked to, skimmed the rest. Of course there are other laws given by God.

I'm not sure how to further explain that... It seems to be in its most basic form. If we love God, we'll show that through obedience. Surely you don't need *me* to explain that.

[Storm Rider]

Yes, even the very elect will be deceived.

Your conclusions above seem to rest on the assumption that a homosexual orientation is an imperfection. I believe that assumption to be incorrect.

But I do agree with your comments on the worth and dignity of each soul.

 

I went back and editing my statements above.  You will see that I bolded some of what I said to draw specific attention to them. I then added additional statements to clarify my intention.  

 

You are responding to your argument in your head and you are not listening to others.  I am not addressing the moral issue of being gay or not; I am solely focused on the truth that each of us will be perfected through Christ.  Each of us will necessarily be changed from our current status, regardless of what it is, we will change through Christ. 

 

There is no basis in scripture to support the idea that because I am one way in mortality I am necessarily that way after this life.  If I am blind or deaf in this life I will not be blind or deaf in the next.life. I have known some deaf people that are adamant if offered the ability to hear in this life they would reject it. It was anathema to them.  They had so much of their own identity wrapped up in being deaf they could not accept any other condition.  In their minds, they were perfect just the way they were.

 

How many of us become so attached to our self-perception that we refuse to look up to Christ?  How are so many deceived that this shell that we wear in this life is the exact shell we will wear in the next without any change, any perfection?  What is the purpose of Christ if not to change us?  

 

I reject any concept that God's children will not change. Those that attempt to say they are exactly the way God made them and that is the way they will be in the eternities are flatly either denying or ignoring the Atonement of Christ....or they are deceived by the evil one.  I fear far too many of us fall in the last camp.  

[Storm Rider]

I read some of the lesson you linked to, skimmed the rest. Of course there are other laws given by God.

I'm not sure how to further explain that... It seems to be in its most basic form. If we love God, we'll show that through obedience. Surely you don't need *me* to explain that.

 

I am not the one that is saying we don't need to obey God.  Do you ever listen to yourself?  This is just plain bizarre.  You have become such an advocate for a cause you automatically assume that anyone that does quickly and obviously agree with you that they must only fall into one set up thought and ideas.  

 

Can you say let's talk past one another?

[thesometimesaint]

I don' think there was any intent or language that codified religious beliefs. What the intent of the proposed law was to strengthen not the ability to worship, but the ability to exercise religion, which is supposed to already be a right of US citizens, but has been under attack for some time. We are not simply allowed to worship, but we are entitled to practice/exercise our personal religion.

 

There is a huge difference between going into a store and buying a cake and then asking someone to be involved in a rite that is in conflict with one's religious beliefs. The same applies to someone who enters a store and buys flowers, which this law would not have prevented or addressed. However, if someone wanted to you to be directly involved in a religious rite this proposed law assured the individual he could say no if it conflicted with their religious convictions. 

 

The culture has worshiped at the alter of the individual for the last fifty years.....except when it comes to those individuals with religious convictions. There is a significant group of individuals who now only want to allow individuals to go to whatever church they choose on Sunday and worship, but at all other times they must bow down and behave in ways that conflict directly with their beliefs; all dressed up in perverted rags called the robes of tolerance and love.

 

No where in this proposed law was there any mention of homosexuality or gay behavior. No where did it empower citizens from selling goods to others. What it did empower is that should an individual's religious beliefs feel threatened (s)he could have used this law to prove that their religious beliefs had an equal priority to the rights of others. 

 

One critic I read was concerned about the unintended consequences of this bill. A desire to foresee how it could be abused or misapplied. Somehow allowing a religious person to right to exercise his religion was so threatening that the entire nation screamed for the end of the bill; not refine it or clarify it, but to kill it. What was so laughable it is this same critique that others have brought against the SSM proposals and laws. How do you change societal norms that have existed for thousands of years and not pause to try and understand the consequences intended and unintended? What is the impact on society at large, on children, on young adults? What impact does it have on sexual mores within the community?  

 

There is no wisdom in cherry-picking from the words of Christ and then attempt to dress your position up in a piece of cloth and then condemn others for not living the teachings of Christ. You take it whole or not at all. No where does Christ condone disobedience to the God's laws; what Jesus does teach is, "Go, and sin no more", "If ye love me keep my commandments".  How are these to be balanced with "Love one another".  

 

To love does not mean condone all the actions of another. To love another is to care enough about them and prevent their physical harm, but not to remove the guard at the gate and allow the rape and pillage of others.  It is to allow the son free reign AWAY from home and when he has learned the error of his ways to welcome his return. 

 

No, I reject any attempt to parse the message of Christ so as to position yourself on the moral high ground. If you will stand with Christ you don't get to listen to part of his words and then close your heart to all else he taught. Obedience remains the first law of the Gospel. 

 

Congress(government) shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;... . No you are not allowed the practice your religion any way you want. Never have been. IE; I can not us my right to practice my religion to deny you the right to your practice of religion.

 

No store owner has any say in the use of his wares once they are purchased. Also a store owner can't decline to give services based on creed(religion). That is already established law. IE; Restrictive Covenants were used against Jews wishing to purchase a home in California.

 

Baking a cake, growing flowers, wearing a certain color, having hall open for rental. None of these violate the law. What you can not do is use the law to tell someone else they can not use them in anyway they prefer.

 

You are still free to believe anything you want. You can believe Jews are sinful, unrighteous, unclean, anything you want. What you can't do is codify those beliefs to legitimatize discrimination against them. The LDS sure didn't appreciate it when such were used to try to destroy the Church.

 

The governor didn't veto the proposed law for being against gay's. She vetoed it because of establishment of religion concerns.

 

Such nonsense was used to bar blacks from the lunch counter, buses, movie theaters, public schools, etc., etc., etc,. fifty years ago in this country.

[rockpond]

I went back and editing my statements above. You will see that I bolded some of what I said to draw specific attention to them. I then added additional statements to clarify my intention.

You are responding to your argument in your head and you are not listening to others. I am not addressing the moral issue of being gay or not; I am solely focused on the truth that each of us will be perfected through Christ. Each of us will necessarily be changed from our current status, regardless of what it is, we will change through Christ.

There is no basis in scripture to support the idea that because I am one way in mortality I am necessarily that way after this life. If I am blind or deaf in this life I will not be blind or deaf in the next.life. I have known some deaf people that are adamant if offered the ability to hear in this life they would reject it. It was anathema to them. They had so much of their own identity wrapped up in being deaf they could not accept any other condition. In their minds, they were perfect just the way they were.

How many of us become so attached to our self-perception that we refuse to look up to Christ? How are so many deceived that this shell that we wear in this life is the exact shell we will wear in the next without any change, any perfection? What is the purpose of Christ if not to change us?

I reject any concept that God's children will not change. Those that attempt to say they are exactly the way God made them and that is the way they will be in the eternities are flatly either denying or ignoring the Atonement of Christ....or they are deceived by the evil one. I fear far too many of us fall in the last camp.

Well, I agree... We all must change and be perfected in Christ.

[rockpond]

I am not the one that is saying we don't need to obey God. Do you ever listen to yourself? This is just plain bizarre. You have become such an advocate for a cause you automatically assume that anyone that does quickly and obviously agree with you that they must only fall into one set up thought and ideas.

Can you say let's talk past one another?

We must be talking past one another because I never suggested that we don't need to obey God.

[california boy]

I wonder what said cake baker would have said and done had he been asked by a hetero couple to make their wedding cake, and during the conversation it came out that the couple were going to have an open marriage and were agreed to set aside one night a week to have relations with others , strangers at a bar or whatever? Would the baker have refused to participate in this ceremony because it was against his ' religious' beliefs concerning adultery? If so, I applaud his consistency at least. If not, then his beliefs are quite compartmentalized.

I wonder how the baker would feel if no one was willing to sell him flour because they believe that baker is not following the teachings of Christ to love and serve all of God's children.  

[california boy]

I went back and editing my statements above.  You will see that I bolded some of what I said to draw specific attention to them. I then added additional statements to clarify my intention.  

 

You are responding to your argument in your head and you are not listening to others.  I am not addressing the moral issue of being gay or not; I am solely focused on the truth that each of us will be perfected through Christ.  Each of us will necessarily be changed from our current status, regardless of what it is, we will change through Christ. 

 

There is no basis in scripture to support the idea that because I am one way in mortality I am necessarily that way after this life.  If I am blind or deaf in this life I will not be blind or deaf in the next.life. I have known some deaf people that are adamant if offered the ability to hear in this life they would reject it. It was anathema to them.  They had so much of their own identity wrapped up in being deaf they could not accept any other condition.  In their minds, they were perfect just the way they were.

 

How many of us become so attached to our self-perception that we refuse to look up to Christ?  How are so many deceived that this shell that we wear in this life is the exact shell we will wear in the next without any change, any perfection?  What is the purpose of Christ if not to change us?  

 

I reject any concept that God's children will not change. Those that attempt to say they are exactly the way God made them and that is the way they will be in the eternities are flatly either denying or ignoring the Atonement of Christ....or they are deceived by the evil one.  I fear far too many of us fall in the last camp.  

 

I am not quite sure what your point is that you are making.  I too believe that we will change when we leave this life.  How that change occurs or what that change means has never been revealed.  Will God's gay children change? Probably.   But for you to assume that God's gay children will change to be like you evidently want them to be like is a bit presumptuous of you don't you think?  Do they not have any say in this process?  Will we all be exactly alike in the next life?  Will we all be just like you?

 

You can be gay and still believe that the Atonement of Christ is for everyone including them.  Just because you are gay does not mean you are being deceived by the evil one.  This may come as a surprise to you, but I think that gays can work towards being more Christlike while on this earth just as much as a straight person can.  Will they fall short of perfection?  Probably.  Not many leave this earth life perfected.

[rodheadlee]

Actually the biggest problem I have with her comment and others like hers is, i my opinion, they are so distorting the message and life of Christ that it becomes only a manifestation of their own prejudice and has nothing to do with the example Christ left us on how to treat others.  

 

I too completely support the right of someone to worship how, who and what they may.  But serving someone who is not of your faith or does not share your faith beliefs is not an infringement on anyone's ability to worship their God.

You're missing the point. It's an infringement on their personal liberty. full stop. I don't build houses for people I don't want to build houses for and I don't give a reason.

[Storm Rider]

I am not quite sure what your point is that you are making.  I too believe that we will change when we leave this life.  How that change occurs or what that change means has never been revealed.  Will God's gay children change? Probably.   But for you to assume that God's gay children will change to be like you evidently want them to be like is a bit presumptuous of you don't you think?  Do they not have any say in this process?  Will we all be exactly alike in the next life?  Will we all be just like you?

 

You can be gay and still believe that the Atonement of Christ is for everyone including them.  Just because you are gay does not mean you are being deceived by the evil one.  This may come as a surprise to you, but I think that gays can work towards being more Christlike while on this earth just as much as a straight person can.  Will they fall short of perfection?  Probably.  Not many leave this earth life perfected.

 

I bolded the part that is offensive because it has nothing to do with what I have said. What I have said is that we each, as in everyone without exception  will change. For a gay person to assume they will be gay eternally fits that degree of presumption you accused me of above. Nothing I have said in this thread has condemned or identified being gay as something that needs to be cured. What I am rejecting is the thought that we will not change.  We will all become more like Christ because his atonement.  You are free to speculate what being like God means and it is no better than anything I could offer. 

 

We each have our say in the process by our choices in this life. Do we want to follow Christ or not. If we choose not to follow him then I promise you that you will not need to suffer the indignity of becoming like him. However, if you and I do choose to follow him then we will become like him.

 

Cal, I have never said, stated, or implied that "being" gay indicates that the individual is deceived by Satan.  If I did please provide that quote.

 

Nor have I said, stated, or implied that a gay person cannot strive for perfection in this life or that he/she can set an example for others in following Christ.

 

I think you are like Rock.  You have an argument in your head and it does not matter what I say or anyone else you have are preset perception of what you want to argue. The problem is nothing you have accused me of above is what I have said or supported.  The sole thing I have been trying to clarify is that each of us regardless of gender or sexual preference and who seek to follow Christ will change. I have not identified that change or attempted to clarify what that change is.  What I am responding to is the concept that because "I" was born that way then I am this way for eternity. Before you react read it again. I have not identified or defined what "this way" is or means.  Each of us is offered the hope of being better than we are; that we each may become like him because he offers that gift to all those who follow him.  

 

The only thing I am addressing is that we will each change; it is real and it is perfect. Christ offers that gift to those who follow him. Anything that strips that hope from the souls of humanity is not of God; that is deception of the evil one. 

[Storm Rider]

You're missing the point. It's an infringement on their personal liberty. full stop. I don't build houses for people I don't want to build houses for and I don't give a reason.

 

I haven't followed those who refused to make a cake for a wedding or provide other similar services, but it stuns me why anyone would define why they have refused to provide service. I don't provide service because I bloody well have the right to do so.  I am not the slave of the market or of any customer that walks in my door.  If I want to work I do and when I don't I won't regardless of the individual. I have worked long enough to know that I do it for fun. I don't work with obnoxious people or those who are rude, offensive, stupid, overly-demanding, or for people who dress up as clowns. Those people scare me and give me bad dreams. 

[rodheadlee]

I haven't followed those who refused to make a cake for a wedding or provide other similar services, but it stuns me why anyone would define why they have refused to provide service. I don't provide service because I bloody well have the right to do so.  I am not the slave of the market or of any customer that walks in my door.  If I want to work I do and when I don't I won't regardless of the individual. I have worked long enough to know that I do it for fun. I don't work with obnoxious people or those who are rude, offensive, stupid, overly-demanding, or for people who dress up as clowns. Those people scare me and give me bad dreams. 

Yep, over the years I've learned to keep my mouth shut. I just try to sense if the person has integrity before we embark on a project.

[Daniel2]

[emphasis added]

Are you saying that God doesn’t’ fully accept the inherent dignity and worth of His gay and lesbian sons and daughters?

I'm saying that LDS cultural biases and beliefs against gay relationships affect what Latter-day Saints believe is God's view of them (namely, a familial rejection of same-gender relationships and those who form such partnerships). Though I'm aware you'll likely disagree, I believe people most often create God in their own image.

[Daniel2]

I bolded the part that is offensive because it has nothing to do with what I have said. What I have said is that we each, as in everyone without exception will change. For a gay person to assume they will be gay eternally fits that degree of presumption you accused me of above. Nothing I have said in this thread has condemned or identified being gay as something that needs to be cured. What I am rejecting is the thought that we will not change. We will all become more like Christ because his atonement. You are free to speculate what being like God means and it is no better than anything I could offer.

We each have our say in the process by our choices in this life. Do we want to follow Christ or not. If we choose not to follow him then I promise you that you will not need to suffer the indignity of becoming like him. However, if you and I do choose to follow him then we will become like him.

Cal, I have never said, stated, or implied that "being" gay indicates that the individual is deceived by Satan. If I did please provide that quote.

Nor have I said, stated, or implied that a gay person cannot strive for perfection in this life or that he/she can set an example for others in following Christ.

I think you are like Rock. You have an argument in your head and it does not matter what I say or anyone else you have are preset perception of what you want to argue. The problem is nothing you have accused me of above is what I have said or supported. The sole thing I have been trying to clarify is that each of us regardless of gender or sexual preference and who seek to follow Christ will change. I have not identified that change or attempted to clarify what that change is. What I am responding to is the concept that because "I" was born that way then I am this way for eternity. Before you react read it again. I have not identified or defined what "this way" is or means. Each of us is offered the hope of being better than we are; that we each may become like him because he offers that gift to all those who follow him.

The only thing I am addressing is that we will each change; it is real and it is perfect. Christ offers that gift to those who follow him. Anything that strips that hope from the souls of humanity is not of God; that is deception of the evil one.

Of course, to those of us who accept our homosexual orientations as a normal, natural, and affirmative expression of human sexuality, "change" (meaning, "changing our attraction to someone of the same sex to someone of the opposite sex") is neither desirable nor necessary. Your previous post seemed to indicate that was the type of change that would be possible, through Christ, so CB's response presuming that's what you meant was certainly understandable and reasonable.

[rockpond]

I bolded the part that is offensive because it has nothing to do with what I have said. What I have said is that we each, as in everyone without exception will change. For a gay person to assume they will be gay eternally fits that degree of presumption you accused me of above. Nothing I have said in this thread has condemned or identified being gay as something that needs to be cured. What I am rejecting is the thought that we will not change. We will all become more like Christ because his atonement. You are free to speculate what being like God means and it is no better than anything I could offer.

We each have our say in the process by our choices in this life. Do we want to follow Christ or not. If we choose not to follow him then I promise you that you will not need to suffer the indignity of becoming like him. However, if you and I do choose to follow him then we will become like him.

Cal, I have never said, stated, or implied that "being" gay indicates that the individual is deceived by Satan. If I did please provide that quote.

Nor have I said, stated, or implied that a gay person cannot strive for perfection in this life or that he/she can set an example for others in following Christ.

I think you are like Rock. You have an argument in your head and it does not matter what I say or anyone else you have are preset perception of what you want to argue. The problem is nothing you have accused me of above is what I have said or supported. The sole thing I have been trying to clarify is that each of us regardless of gender or sexual preference and who seek to follow Christ will change. I have not identified that change or attempted to clarify what that change is. What I am responding to is the concept that because "I" was born that way then I am this way for eternity. Before you react read it again. I have not identified or defined what "this way" is or means. Each of us is offered the hope of being better than we are; that we each may become like him because he offers that gift to all those who follow him.

The only thing I am addressing is that we will each change; it is real and it is perfect. Christ offers that gift to those who follow him. Anything that strips that hope from the souls of humanity is not of God; that is deception of the evil one.

The context of your comment seemed to suggest that you felt gay people, like blind people, would be changed/healed to be made straight in the next life through the power of the atonement.

It appears that several of us understood it that way. So perhaps you'd like to clarify your position... Is it your belief that homosexuals will be made heterosexual through (if not before) the resurrection? Or would it be more accurate to say that those who desire to be heterosexual can achieve that desire through the power of the atonement while it is still possible for homosexuals to be resurrected as perfected beings with the sexual orientation intact?

For me, I think my beliefs most closely align with my latter description.

[california boy]

I bolded the part that is offensive because it has nothing to do with what I have said. What I have said is that we each, as in everyone without exception  will change. For a gay person to assume they will be gay eternally fits that degree of presumption you accused me of above. Nothing I have said in this thread has condemned or identified being gay as something that needs to be cured. What I am rejecting is the thought that we will not change.  We will all become more like Christ because his atonement.  You are free to speculate what being like God means and it is no better than anything I could offer. 

 

We each have our say in the process by our choices in this life. Do we want to follow Christ or not. If we choose not to follow him then I promise you that you will not need to suffer the indignity of becoming like him. However, if you and I do choose to follow him then we will become like him.

 

Cal, I have never said, stated, or implied that "being" gay indicates that the individual is deceived by Satan.  If I did please provide that quote.

 

Nor have I said, stated, or implied that a gay person cannot strive for perfection in this life or that he/she can set an example for others in following Christ.

 

I think you are like Rock.  You have an argument in your head and it does not matter what I say or anyone else you have are preset perception of what you want to argue. The problem is nothing you have accused me of above is what I have said or supported.  The sole thing I have been trying to clarify is that each of us regardless of gender or sexual preference and who seek to follow Christ will change. I have not identified that change or attempted to clarify what that change is.  What I am responding to is the concept that because "I" was born that way then I am this way for eternity. Before you react read it again. I have not identified or defined what "this way" is or means.  Each of us is offered the hope of being better than we are; that we each may become like him because he offers that gift to all those who follow him.  

 

The only thing I am addressing is that we will each change; it is real and it is perfect. Christ offers that gift to those who follow him. Anything that strips that hope from the souls of humanity is not of God; that is deception of the evil one. 

 

I think I was agreeing with you when I said that yes, everyone who dies will probably change.  I also agreed that we need to follow Christ in this life and develop more Christ-like attributes.   So far, I  am agreeing with everything you are saying.  

 

Maybe you could clarify what kind of change you think a straight person will undergo in the next life.  And would that change be any different for a gay person.  What do you see as this change that gay people will go through when we die?

 

This is what you said about being deceived by Satan

Those that attempt to say they are exactly the way God made them and that is the way they will be in the eternities are flatly either denying or ignoring the Atonement of Christ....or they are deceived by the evil one.  I fear far too many of us fall in the last camp.  

 

 

 

And this is how I addressed that statement.

You can be gay and still believe that the Atonement of Christ is for everyone including them.  Just because you are gay does not mean you are being deceived by the evil one.  This may come as a surprise to you, but I think that gays can work towards being more Christlike while on this earth just as much as a straight person can.  Will they fall short of perfection?  Probably.  Not many leave this earth life perfected.

 

 

If you think I misunderstood what you stated, perhaps you could clear up what you met concerning being decieved by the evil one.  I am interested in what you are saying.  Evidently I am misunderstanding what you are implying.

[Storm Rider]

Of course, to those of us who accept our homosexual orientations as a normal, natural, and affirmative expression of human sexuality, "change" (meaning, "changing our attraction to someone of the same sex to someone of the opposite sex") is neither desirable nor necessary. Your previous post seemed to indicate that was the type of change that would be possible, through Christ, so CB's response presuming that's what you meant was certainly understandable and reasonable.

 

No, I was not taking any position what that change would look like. I agree that most individuals are gay because that is the way they were born. 

 

My position remains that we, everyone including gay people that follow Christ, will change and will be perfected through him.  I am not defining what that change will be.  It may very well be that as we are perfected in Christ that our wants and desires are completely unified with his wants and desires; I believe this is an accurate understanding of being one with him.  

 

What I am rejecting and trying to demonstrate is for anyone who seeks to follow Christ and then demand that (s)he remain as (s)he is in mortality is not an acceptable position.  There must be a willingness to accept whatever he has planned for us. There is a need for humility in each servant of Christ. 

[thesometimesaint]

I'll leave what God does up to God. It is how I treat my fellow man/woman that I will be judged on.

[Storm Rider]

The context of your comment seemed to suggest that you felt gay people, like blind people, would be changed/healed to be made straight in the next life through the power of the atonement.

It appears that several of us understood it that way. So perhaps you'd like to clarify your position... Is it your belief that homosexuals will be made heterosexual through (if not before) the resurrection? Or would it be more accurate to say that those who desire to be heterosexual can achieve that desire through the power of the atonement while it is still possible for homosexuals to be resurrected as perfected beings with the sexual orientation intact?

For me, I think my beliefs most closely align with my latter description.

 

How many times have I heard that because "they" or "I" as born this way therefore there is no need for change. My example of using the blind man since birth being brought to a position of perfection through Christ demonstrates that anyone who is "born that way" does not indicate they are perfect or that their way of being is absolute.  Though the example of being blind since birth is an obvious example of healing or future change through Christ, the fact is that everyone, even those with less obvious need of healing, will be healed completely. Each of us, including gay individuals, will be healed. 

 

I realize that you are reacting to the very idea that a gay person will be healed is anathema.  What is strange is that I have not said what the healing will do or what will change. The only thing that I have said is that each follower of Christ will be perfected through him. You are so frightened that that healing indicates that someone being gay is a condition in need of healing you seem gladly to sell your/their inheritance for a bowl of porridge. What is so threatening?  A gay follower of Christ is not the only one that will be healed or perfected!  (S)he is but one individual among all those others that will follow Christ.  

 

Let me say again because there is a constant need to reinterpret what I have said:

1. All followers of Christ will be perfected through Christ irrespective of gender of sexual orientation
2. I am not addressing in a direct manner sexual orientation
3. I have not described what Jesus' perfection is or will be.
4. To be perfected through Christ is to become one with him.  

What my objective has been is to refute any statement or false teaching that leads any individual to conceive, think, or believe that because they are "born that way", regardless of what "that way" is, they are condemned to be "that way" throughout eternity.  We each should have a hope of becoming one with Christ and each follower of Christ needs to maintain that hope; we each will be perfected through him.  It is Jesus' gift to each of his followers and all are in need of his perfection and healing.  There is not a single person that is not in need of that healing grace and all encompassing perfection.  

 

It is just as wrong for a gay individual as it is for a straight individual to think that their way of being is unchangeable or that they are without hope in the eternities.  I cannot begin to conceive what a complete union with God will be like, but it is that hope of complete union that we each need to contemplate and maintain, to use as a beacon to draw us forward in faith. 

 

Stating I am the way I am because I was born this way is a deceit and is not true. Some individuals attempt to use this line of thinking to validate their actions and thoughts. The blind man may sense that he will never see the colors of fall leaves or the deep blue of an ocean or the reaching hand of a loved one. Those thoughts of hopelessness are not valid; Christ.promises that each will obtain a perfected body and will be in one with him. It is not a sin to recognize that one is blind; that is simply a statement of fact, but it is not an eternal reality.

 

Too often we limit the conversation about our own sexuality as a condemnation of birth. I see no reason to condemn what is a reality for an individual.  My personal feelings one way or another about what perfection looks like is irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant is what the individual comes to believe through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.  

 

What I believe is that each of us will be healed completely and fully through Christ.  I am not equating being gay with being blind. I am equating being blind with the condition of each of member of the human race; we are all in need of healing and Jesus' perfect grace.

 

There should be no confusion because some of the words I have used have been used in different contexts about the discussion of being gay - that there is a need for change, etc. I have clarified that I believe a gay person is gay because they were born that way.  What is absolutely clear to me is that a gay person will still be healed through Christ just as any other follower of Christ. 

[Daniel2]

Prominent and usually provocative Gay Activist Dan Savage weighs in with a challenge to businesses in Arizona:

"Here's a suggestion for all the hatey... anti-gay bakers in Arizona: start an organization—The Arizona Association of Homophobic Bakers—and publicly identify yourselves as homophobic bakers. Put up a website with a list of bakeries that don't want to do business with LGBT people. Put signs in your windows that clearly state that gay and lesbian customers are not welcome and will be turned away. As Anderson Cooper pointed out earlier this week, gays and lesbians are not covered by existing anti-discrimination law in Arizona. So it's perfectly legal right now for bakers—and florists and caterers and photographers—to discriminate against LGBT customers. Discriminating against LGBT people was legal in Arizona before Jan Brewer vetoed the turn-away-the-gays bill, and it remains legal after her veto. So homophobic bakers who identify themselves as haters and bigots run no legal risk. They can't be sued by the individual gay people they discriminate against and the authorities can't fine 'em or shut 'em down. Don't want gay customers? Great. Let us know who you are. Put up a list online, hang signs in your windows, and we will take our business elsewhere." - Dan Savage, writing for the Stranger.

[rockpond]

I realize that you are reacting to the very idea that a gay person will be healed is anathema.  What is strange is that I have not said what the healing will do or what will change. The only thing that I have said is that each follower of Christ will be perfected through him. You are so frightened that that healing indicates that someone being gay is a condition in need of healing you seem gladly to sell your/their inheritance for a bowl of porridge. What is so threatening?  A gay follower of Christ is not the only one that will be healed or perfected!  (S)he is but one individual among all those others that will follow Christ.

 

Not anathema, not frightening, not threatening.  Just something that doesn't fit with my belief and testimony of the plan of salvation.

 

I'm not sure what you mean that I seem glad to sell my/their inheritance for a bowl of porridge.  I believe, like you, that we all must be healed and perfected in Christ.  I don't think anyone here has disagreed with that.

[Daniel2]

Not anathema, not frightening, not threatening. Just something that doesn't fit with my belief and testimony of the plan of salvation.

I'm not sure what you mean that I seem glad to sell my/their inheritance for a bowl of porridge. I believe, like you, that we all must be healed and perfected in Christ. I don't think anyone here has disagreed with that.

Storm Rider, can you explain how you feel the "mess of porridge" applies in this scenario? To what do you believe the porridge is analogous?

[california boy]

How many times have I heard that because "they" or "I" as born this way therefore there is no need for change. My example of using the blind man since birth being brought to a position of perfection through Christ demonstrates that anyone who is "born that way" does not indicate they are perfect or that their way of being is absolute.  Though the example of being blind since birth is an obvious example of healing or future change through Christ, the fact is that everyone, even those with less obvious need of healing, will be healed completely. Each of us, including gay individuals, will be healed

 

I realize that you are reacting to the very idea that a gay person will be healed is anathema.  What is strange is that I have not said what the healing will do or what will change. The only thing that I have said is that each follower of Christ will be perfected through him. You are so frightened that that healing indicates that someone being gay is a condition in need of healing you seem gladly to sell your/their inheritance for a bowl of porridge. What is so threatening?  A gay follower of Christ is not the only one that will be healed or perfected!  (S)he is but one individual among all those others that will follow Christ.  

 

Let me say again because there is a constant need to reinterpret what I have said:

1. All followers of Christ will be perfected through Christ irrespective of gender of sexual orientation
2. I am not addressing in a direct manner sexual orientation
3. I have not described what Jesus' perfection is or will be.
4. To be perfected through Christ is to become one with him.  

What my objective has been is to refute any statement or false teaching that leads any individual to conceive, think, or believe that because they are "born that way", regardless of what "that way" is, they are condemned to be "that way" throughout eternity.  We each should have a hope of becoming one with Christ and each follower of Christ needs to maintain that hope; we each will be perfected through him.  It is Jesus' gift to each of his followers and all are in need of his perfection and healing.  There is not a single person that is not in need of that healing grace and all encompassing perfection.  

 

What my objective has been is to refute any statement or false teaching that leads any individual to conceive, think, or believe that because they are "born that way", regardless of what "that way" is, they are condemned to be "that way" throughout eternity.  I cannot begin to conceive what a complete union with God will be like, but it is that hope of complete union that we each need to contemplate and maintain, to use as a beacon to draw us forward in faith. 

 

Stating I am the way I am because I was born this way is a deceit and is not true. Some individuals attempt to use this line of thinking to validate their actions and thoughts. The blind man may sense that he will never see the colors of fall leaves or the deep blue of an ocean or the reaching hand of a loved one. Those thoughts of hopelessness are not valid; Christ.promises that each will obtain a perfected body and will be in one with him. It is not a sin to recognize that one is blind; that is simply a statement of fact, but it is not an eternal reality.

 

Too often we limit the conversation about our own sexuality as a condemnation of birth. I see no reason to condemn what is a reality for an individual.  My personal feelings one way or another about what perfection looks like is irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant is what the individual comes to believe through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.  

 

What I believe is that each of us will be healed completely and fully through Christ.  I am not equating being gay with being blind. I am equating being blind with the condition of each of member of the human race; we are all in need of healing and Jesus' perfect grace.

 

There should be no confusion because some of the words I have used have been used in different contexts about the discussion of being gay - that there is a need for change, etc. I have clarified that I believe a gay person is gay because they were born that way.  What is absolutely clear to me is that a gay person will still be healed through Christ just as any other follower of Christ. 

Storm, I have read your post three times to try and figure out what your point is.  I am having some difficulty.  I think everyone agrees that we become perfect through Christ and that being with him would be amazing.  And I think we all agree that we all fall short of what Christ expects of us.  We also all agree that through the Atonement, we can overcome our faults and find a way back to Christ.  So most of your post that deals with this is not what we are confused about.

 

Here is where I get confused.  This is what you say.

 

How many times have I heard that because "they" or "I" as born this way therefore there is no need for change.

 

You stated clearly that you believe gay people are born gay.  Do you believe that gay people need to change?  If so, what do they need to change?

 

 

What my objective has been is to refute any statement or false teaching that leads any individual to conceive, think, or believe that because they are "born that way", regardless of what "that way" is, they are condemned to be "that way" throughout eternity.

 

I don't think that I feel condemned to be gay for eternity.  I just think that I will be gay for eternity.  I am looking forward to being gay for eternity in the same way you might be looking forward to being straight for eternity.  It is not a curse, it is just the way it is.  Do you disagree with this attitude?  Do you think I am being deceived because I don't mind being gay for eternity?  

 

 

What is absolutely clear to me is that a gay person will still be healed through Christ just as any other follower of Christ. 

 

Well like you said, we will all be healed through Christ.  Did you mean something other than that?  Is there a reason why you singled out gay people in this sentence?  Are gay people healed through Christ any differently than a straight person?  If not, then what is the point of your post?  If gay people are healed differently than straight people, then tell us how they are healed differently.  What will happen to gay people that is unique to being gay??

[Storm Rider]

Not anathema, not frightening, not threatening.  Just something that doesn't fit with my belief and testimony of the plan of salvation.

 

I'm not sure what you mean that I seem glad to sell my/their inheritance for a bowl of porridge.  I believe, like you, that we all must be healed and perfected in Christ.  I don't think anyone here has disagreed with that.

 

In an earlier post I talked about a deaf brother that concluded that he never wanted to hear; that being deaf was perfect for him; he could conceive of no other way of being. He became so attached to his present that he could not envision a possible change after this life. 

 

To sell our inheritance is when we become solely focused on mortality, we are attached to the now, which is necessarily a carnal existence. We cannot seem to separate ourselves from our carnal existence. What is worse is we conclude that the carnal is the ultimate form of existence. I have read many times on this Forum from gay individuals that there is no joy is the possibility that they may not be gay in the eternities.  I think that perception is a deception. I believe that there is something greater for each of us. I also don't think that we have a good handle on what that will look like. I can say that we will be one with Christ, but the words are more easily written than understood. 

[Storm Rider]

Storm, I have read your post three times to try and figure out what your point is.  I am having some difficulty.  I think everyone agrees that we become perfect through Christ and that being with him would be amazing.  And I think we all agree that we all fall short of what Christ expects of us.  We also all agree that through the Atonement, we can overcome our faults and find a way back to Christ.  So most of your post that deals with this is not what we are confused about.

 

Here is where I get confused.  This is what you say.

 

You stated clearly that you believe gay people are born gay.  Do you believe that gay people need to change?  If so, what do they need to change?  I believe that we all will change regardless of gender or sexual preference. We all need to change and I don't think any of us needs to become so attached to our way of being or thinking that we think there is not a need for change. I think what you want to ask is do I think a gay person's sexual preference will or must change in the eternities. My answer is that I believe that God made male and female and that they joined together will be one. I think this union has an eternal value. Why does our Father in Heaven create gay people if they will not easily participate in this union? I have no clue what God has in store, but having put such difficult trials or burdens and that have confused so many people, I believe God will make it right. I honestly do not have a definitive answer to the question will a gay person lose their sexual preference.  It is easier for me to conceive that I may, through Christ, be changed completely in the eternities. This process of change will occur for each follower of Christ. Sexual preference as a focus loses its import in that context.  

 

 

I don't think that I feel condemned to be gay for eternity.  I just think that I will be gay for eternity.  I am looking forward to being gay for eternity in the same way you might be looking forward to being straight for eternity.  It is not a curse, it is just the way it is.  Do you disagree with this attitude?  Do you think I am being deceived because I don't mind being gay for eternity?  To become one with Christ will be a significant change for each follower of Christ.  The importance of my statement is to deny the value of saying, "Because I am born this way this is the way I will be in eternity".  This assumes that whatever way we are born is indicative of how we will be in the eternities. The topic of this thread is being gay; change gay to being blind, or deaf. Stating that because I was born this way this is the only way I will ever be is a deception.  

 

 

Well like you said, we will all be healed through Christ.  Did you mean something other than that?  Is there a reason why you singled out gay people in this sentence?  Are gay people healed through Christ any differently than a straight person?  If not, then what is the point of your post?  If gay people are healed differently than straight people, then tell us how they are healed differently.  What will happen to gay people that is unique to being gay??  I think both gay and straight, male and female, every human that has ever lived has or will have the opportunity to be healed, to be perfected, through Christ.  I have said repeatedly that I don't know what that looks like; I have said repeatedly that every individual will be changed by that healing.  Each of us consider the implications of being one with Christ Jesus. I am resisting any conditions or limitations on that oneness.  My focus is solely on being open to whatever God has planned. I think that we all will be surprised at what he has in store for each of us.