What's Your Analogy Of The Trinity

[teddyaware]

Well I think the point was to appease the sectarians?  I actually think they got it wrong, and indeed I think that substance theology is long dead.  I think that a Social Trinity- a concept that many Christians are moving towards- is the way to go.

 

I suspect you don't want to discuss it further, but if you do, I would like to see what I missed.  The church has always taught that the unity of the Godhead is their "purpose" and not the Holy Ghost as some kind of spirit matter "substance". 

 

Being unified in purpose certainly means they are of "one mind" already.  Certainly they are in perfect communication, but what unifies them is their purpose, not a "substance".

 

I fail to see how the Holy Ghost can be a person of spirit AND be a "substance" which makes the Godhead of "one mind".  I would think the Light of Christ might somehow suffice for your substance model, but I don't know how the HG can be a person AND a "substance" at the same time.

 

But it really is a creative solution and I think I understand why you would be drawn to it.  It is a way we could communicate with EV's right away without twisting theologies too much.   I just don't think it is the best long term solution.

 

Long term I think we should just stick to our guns and tell it like it is doctrinally speaking, and keep it simple.  But perhaps your solution would be a good tactical intermediate phase.

There is no appeasing of sectarians. Facts are facts, whether we like what those facts are or not.

 

Most non-LDS Christians believe in three separate and distinct personages in the Godhead and so do the Latter-day Saints. Most non-LDS Christians believe that though there are three separate  personages in the Godhead they are one God due to some mysterious and undefined connecting "substance" all three personages share in common. The Latter-Day Saints believe that within each member of the Godhead there is an infinite and eternal fullness of an uncreated, glorious substance called the Spirit of Truth that enables the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost to agree on all things and to think and feel exactly like one another. This is the truth, whether one wants to acknowledge it or not; and without the indwelling of this substance called the Spirit of Truth, divine oneness is not possible . If this LDS perspective helps to answer and make sense of a non-LDS Christian mystery concerning the Godhead, all the better.

 

There is no denying that according to LDS theology the Spirit of Truth is a substance; and there is also no denying of the fact that the scriptures repeatedly teach the eternal oneness of the Father and the Son is in major measure due to the fact that they share and comingle within the fullness of this divine substance called the Spirit of Truth. And so we read:

12 And I, John, saw that he received not of the fulness at the first, but received grace for grace;

13 And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness;

14 And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first.

15 And I, John, bear record, and lo, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him, and there came a voice out of heaven saying: This is my beloved Son.

16 And I, John, bear record that he received a fulness of the glory of the Father;

17 And he received all power, both in heaven and on earth, and the glory of the Father was with him, for he dwelt in him. (D&C 93)

Edited January 30, 2014 by teddyaware

[Ahab]

Vance. No. NO. NO. I don't have any wish to discuss translations. I am content to point out that if it would seem that we are in error, it is not because of failure to accept what we assumed was revealed, but because we failed to follow closely enough the academic scholarship of only very recent times which suggests that the translations accepted, (even up until the founding of the Latter-day Restoration), were reliable in regards to "I am".

I Jn 2:20? It says that the one with the unction from the Holy One knows "all things". But no one claims omniscience. I could not interpret that in such a way as to deny mystery. I would suggest something along the lines of, all things that are revealed, or all things necessary to salvation, or perfection, or exaltation. I could not insist that the gift of the Holy Ghost gives full and comprehensive knowledge of literally everything. I would argue pretty confidently for hidden knowledge. The apostles themselves are not dispensers of all knowledge, but mysteries. Things revealed as "mysteries" imply that some knowledge remains to be known.

"Let a man so account of us as of the ministers of Christ, and the dispensers of the mysteries of God." (I Cor. 4:1)

Thanks for your reply. I appreciate and value your judgment that what I said, though you disagree, was "fair". Thanks much.

Regards,

Rory

We learn line upon line and precept upon precept until we know everything there is to be known. We will learn everything, but it will take long time. And some more time than others because of how stubborn and hard headed some people can be.

[Vance]

Vance. No. NO. NO. I don't have any wish to discuss translations. I am content to point out that if it would seem that we are in error, it is not because of failure to accept what we assumed was revealed, but because we failed to follow closely enough the academic scholarship of only very recent times which suggests that the translations accepted, (even up until the founding of the Latter-day Restoration), were reliable in regards to "I am".

And all of the translators up until modern times were predisposed to letting their Trinitarian doctrine influence the translation, thus getting us the "I am".

(Note: Even the "I am" is not contradictory to LDS doctrine.)

I was simply a matter of letting their theology direct their translation. They put the cart ahead of the horse, so to speak.

I find modern "mechanical" translations very interesting exactly because they eliminate (or at least greatly reduce) the influence of the translators theology upon the translation.

 

I Jn 2:20? It says that the one with the unction from the Holy One knows "all things". But no one claims omniscience. I could not interpret that in such a way as to deny mystery. I would suggest something along the lines of, all things that are revealed, or all things necessary to salvation, or perfection, or exaltation. I could not insist that the gift of the Holy Ghost gives full and comprehensive knowledge of literally everything. I would argue pretty confidently for hidden knowledge. The apostles themselves are not dispensers of all knowledge, but mysteries. Things revealed as "mysteries" imply that some knowledge remains to be known.

 

"Let a man so account of us as of the ministers of Christ, and the dispensers of the mysteries of God." (I Cor. 4:1)

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Admittedly, it doesn't give a timeline in that verse. But I would think that God very much wants to reveal himself to us. Wasn't one of the main purposes for sending Christ (the Son) to the world to reveal God (or the Father) to mankind?

Verses like,

John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Come to mind.

 

Thanks for your reply. I appreciate and value your judgment that what I said, though you disagree, was "fair". Thanks much.

I don't agree with you sometimes. But I fully recognize that you are an honorable person doing your best. Edited January 30, 2014 by Vance

[Vance]

There is no denying that according to LDS theology the Spirit of Truth is a substance; and there is also no denying of the fact that the scriptures repeatedly teach the eternal oneness of the Father and the Son is in major measure due to the fact that they share and comingle within the fullness of this divine substance called the Spirit of Truth. And so we read:

12 And I, John, saw that he received not of the fulness at the first, but received grace for grace;

13 And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness;

14 And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first.

15 And I, John, bear record, and lo, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him, and there came a voice out of heaven saying: This is my beloved Son.

16 And I, John, bear record that he received a fulness of the glory of the Father;

17 And he received all power, both in heaven and on earth, and the glory of the Father was with him, for he dwelt in him. (D&C 93)

I notice that NO WHERE in those verses is the word "substance" found. Your argument has no foundation in scripture.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Vance

[teddyaware]

I notice that NO WHERE in those verses is the word "substance" found. Your argument has no foundation in scripture.

Do you believe the Spirit of Truth is a substance or do you believe it is -- as our non-LDS Christian friends are wont to say -- immaterial? If the Spirit of God and the Light of Christ are composed of material substance, then you are incorrect.

[Ahab]

Do you believe the Spirit of Truth is a substance or do you believe it is -- as our non-LDS Christian friends are wont to say -- immaterial? If the Spirit of God and the Light of Christ are composed of material substance, then you are incorrect.

Both

That's like asking if their thoughts or feelings are material or immaterial. If they were not persons they would have no Spirit or Light, or thoughts or feelings.

[Vance]

Do you believe the Spirit of Truth is a substance or do you believe it is -- as our non-LDS Christian friends are wont to say -- immaterial? If the Spirit of God and the Light of Christ are composed of material substance, then you are incorrect.

False Choice! Neither!

"Substance" is never used in scripture to describe the Holy Spirit or even the Light of Christ. It is nearly ALWAYS used to describe property or possessions.

The scriptures do use the term "matter" to describe spirit but NEVER substance.

D&C 131:7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;

8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

I suggest that if your are going to discuss the doctrine of the scriptures, that you use the language of the scriptures. Otherwise people might think you are promoting heresy.

[teddyaware]

Both

That's like asking if their thoughts or feelings are material or immaterial. If they were not persons they would have no Spirit or Light, or thoughts or feelings.

The fact of the matter is that all spirit is matter. The Prophet Joseph Smith said:

7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;

8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter. (D&C 131)

This being the case, if the Father and the Son both possess an infinite and eternal measure of the Holy Spirit, they are filled with the same divine material or substance. The scriptures teach over and over again that spiritual unity cannot exist between two individuals unless both individuals possess the Spirit of God. According to Joseph Smith the Spirit of God is material and is therefore substantive. So the Father and the Son are filled in eternal measure with a vital material substance called the Spirit of Truth.

[teddyaware]

Deleated

Edited January 30, 2014 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

False Choice! Neither!

"Substance" is never used in scripture to describe the Holy Spirit or even the Light of Christ. It is nearly ALWAYS used to describe property or possessions.

The scriptures do use the term "matter" to describe spirit but NEVER substance.

D&C 131:7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;

8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

I suggest that if your are going to discuss the doctrine of the scriptures, that you use the language of the scriptures. Otherwise people might think you are promoting heresy.

So you make my point. Matter has substance and is substance.

"noun: substance; plural noun: substances

1. a particular kind of matter with uniform properties.

"a steel tube coated with a waxy substance"

synonyms: material, matter, stuff More

"an organic substance"

2. the real physical matter of which a person or thing consists and which has a tangible, solid presence.

"proteins compose much of the actual substance of the body"

 

Edited January 30, 2014 by teddyaware

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Thanks Mola Ram Suda Ram.

 

My apologies for failing to appreciate why good Mormons might occasionally feel the need to take the liberty to poke fun at The Trinity. Or I should say, the Trinity as it has been proposed by modern Trinitarians, people who are often really just looking for a convenient reason to exclude you guys from the category of Christian. 

 

Rory 

I think this post probably sums up why the defensiveness comes in. I served in Lynchburg VA so I am quite familiar with exactly what you are saying. The funny thing is that among all of our Baptist friends I ran across probably the only Catholic couple in all of Lynchburg. They quite honestly were the epitome of Christ like behavior. I very much have respect for them. Any way every door I knocked on was a battle about how we were not Christians and the Trinity came up frequently. Your post just reminded me of those times. It would have been easier had they just said what you said instead of turning to the bible and trying to defend it all there.   

[teddyaware]

False Choice! Neither!

"Substance" is never used in scripture to describe the Holy Spirit or even the Light of Christ. It is nearly ALWAYS used to describe property or possessions.

The scriptures do use the term "matter" to describe spirit but NEVER substance.

D&C 131:7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;

8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

I suggest that if your are going to discuss the doctrine of the scriptures, that you use the language of the scriptures. Otherwise people might think you are promoting heresy.

Question: Does the word light, as it appears several times below (in bold italic), denote something of material substance or something of immaterial substance (like an abstract theory)?

4 This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom;

5 Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son—

6 He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth;

7 Which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made.

8 As also he is in the moon, and is the light of the moon, and the power thereof by which it was made;

9 As also the light of the stars, and the power thereof by which they were made;

10 And the earth also, and the power thereof, even the earth upon which you stand.

11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;

12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—

13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

Edited January 30, 2014 by teddyaware

[Vance]

Question: Does the word light, as it appears several times below (in bold italic), denote something of material substance or something of immaterial substance (like an abstract theory)?

Another false choice.

Neither.

4 This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom;

5 Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son—

6 He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth;

7 Which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made.

8 As also he is in the moon, and is the light of the moon, and the power thereof by which it was made;

9 As also the light of the stars, and the power thereof by which they were made;

10 And the earth also, and the power thereof, even the earth upon which you stand.

11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;

12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—

13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

Please feel free to highlight the words "material", "immaterial" and "substance" in those verses. I'll wait.

[teddyaware]

Another false choice.

Neither.

Please feel free to highlight the words "material", "immaterial" and "substance" in those verses. I'll wait.

Please answer the question. Is the light of God in these verses referring to something of material substance? A simple yes or a no will do.

[Vance]

So you make my point. Matter has substance and is substance.

"noun: substance; plural noun: substances

1. a particular kind of matter with uniform properties.

"a steel tube coated with a waxy substance"

synonyms: material, matter, stuff More

"an organic substance"

2. the real physical matter of which a person or thing consists and which has a tangible, solid presence.

"proteins compose much of the actual substance of the body"

And you are missing mine.

NO WHERE in scripture are "material" or "substance" associated with the Spirit or the Light of Christ. Your argument is without scriptural foundation. So, give it a rest.

[ChristKnight]

Random thought: I'm being reminded of "Offenders For a Word" at the moment. 

[teddyaware]

Deleated

Edited January 30, 2014 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

And you are missing mine.

NO WHERE in scripture are "material" or "substance" associated with the Spirit or the Light of Christ. Your argument is without scriptural foundation. So, give it a rest.

Are you LDS?

 

You are out of line again and out of the thread.

[mfbukowski]

There is no appeasing of sectarians. Facts are facts, whether we like what those facts are or not.

 

Most non-LDS Christians believe in three separate and distinct personages in the Godhead and so do the Latter-day Saints. Most non-LDS Christians believe that though there are three separate  personages in the Godhead they are one God due to some mysterious and undefined connecting "substance" all three personages share in common. The Latter-Day Saints believe that within each member of the Godhead there is an infinite and eternal fullness of an uncreated, glorious substance called the Spirit of Truth that enables the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost to agree on all things and to think and feel exactly like one another. This is the truth, whether one wants to acknowledge it or not; and without the indwelling of this substance called the Spirit of Truth, divine oneness is not possible . If this LDS perspective helps to answer and make sense of a non-LDS Christian mystery concerning the Godhead, all the better.

 

There is no denying that according to LDS theology the Spirit of Truth is a substance; and there is also no denying of the fact that the scriptures repeatedly teach the eternal oneness of the Father and the Son is in major measure due to the fact that they share and comingle within the fullness of this divine substance called the Spirit of Truth. And so we read:

12 And I, John, saw that he received not of the fulness at the first, but received grace for grace;

13 And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness;

14 And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first.

15 And I, John, bear record, and lo, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him, and there came a voice out of heaven saying: This is my beloved Son.

16 And I, John, bear record that he received a fulness of the glory of the Father;

17 And he received all power, both in heaven and on earth, and the glory of the Father was with him, for he dwelt in him. (D&C 93)

Disagree on every possible point but there's no reason to discuss it further.

Facts are not facts.  They are interpretations.

Edited January 30, 2014 by mfbukowski

[teddyaware]

Disagree on every possible point but there's no reason to discuss it further.

One parting question. A simple yes or no answer will do and we'll leave it at that -- Do you believe all spirit is matter?

[Ahab]

The fact of the matter is that all spirit is matter. The Prophet Joseph Smith said:

7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;

8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter. (D&C 131)

This being the case, if the Father and the Son both possess an infinite and eternal measure of the Holy Spirit, they are filled with the same divine material or substance. The scriptures teach over and over again that spiritual unity cannot exist between two individuals unless both individuals possess the Spirit of God. According to Joseph Smith the Spirit of God is material and is therefore substantive. So the Father and the Son are filled in eternal measure with a vital material substance called the Spirit of Truth.

Sometimes the word Spirit or spirit is used to describe the sense or atmosphere of something, though, and when used in that way we're not referring to a material substance. Like when we talk about the Spirit of Christmas, or the spirit of a particular time or place, or the spirit you feel when you are in a particular atmosphere and can feel the influence of something or someone even when you're not in physical contact with a person.

So when Joseph said all spirit is matter, he had a particular kind of spirit in his mind when he said that. A spirit that came from the influence of a material person while that spirit itself was not that person. And to know what he meant you need to have that same spirit, otherwise you won't know what he actually meant.

[mfbukowski]

We learn line upon line and precept upon precept until we know everything there is to be known. We will learn everything, but it will take long time. And some more time than others because of how stubborn and hard headed some people can be

Gosh.  Who might that be?

[Ahab]

One parting question. A simple yes or no answer will do and we'll leave it at that -- Do you believe all spirit is matter?

I'll take it a step further and say that not only do I believe that not all spirit is matter, but it it is a fact that not all spirit (or Spirit) is matter.

And no, Joseph Smith was not wrong when he said all spirit is matter because the kind of spirit he was referring to is matter.

[mfbukowski]

One parting question. A simple yes or no answer will do and we'll leave it at that -- Do you believe all spirit is matter?

Of course. Like all Mormons I am a materialist.

 

But like all words spirit means many things.  Our disagreement is about epistemology and what language can and cannot do.  I do not subscribe to the correspondence theory of truth and it would take a hundred pages to get us on common ground on that one.  Just know I believe everything you do, just seeing it from a different angle.

[teddyaware]

Sometimes the word Spirit or spirit is used to describe the sense or atmosphere of something, though, and when used in that way we're not referring to a material substance. Like when we talk about the Spirit of Christmas, or the spirit of a particular time or place, or the spirit you feel when you are in a particular atmosphere and can feel the influence of something or someone even when you're not in physical contact with a person.

So when Joseph said all spirit is matter, he had a particular kind of spirit in his mind when he said that. A spirit that came from the influence of a material person while that spirit itself was not that person. And to know what he meant you need to have that same spirit, otherwise you won't know what he actually meant.

Three questions:

1. Do you believe the spirit of Christ that fills the immensity of space is material and substantive in nature?

2. Do you believe when the saints are said to be filled with the Spirit of God that they are filled with  substantive spiritual matter or are simply feeling an emotion?

3. Do you believe the spiritual substance that animates the resurrected body of Christ imparts divine powers and attributes to the Saviour?

Edited January 30, 2014 by teddyaware