Federal Judge Strikes Down Utah’S Ban On Same-Sex Marriage

[frank_jessop]

 

Daniel, I only wish you could receive the desires of your heart. I just wish the rest of us did not have to go along for the ride. Perversion, philosophies that can go no further than self, are not the panacea for civil society regardless of religion.

One of the things I know is that there is a judgement. I pray that you receive as much mercy as the rest of us. The challenge is for those who knowingly love darkness and reject light; for these poor souls there is no mercy because they do not seek it or want it. They have chosen to bask in the love of evil and their master is their reward.

No need for revelation, no need to scratch those with itching ears. God is their judge and frightful will be the day of their damnation.

Do you presume that all will be judge by God according to the same standard, i.e. by whatever standard you are judged - what you knew to be right from wrong - will be the same standard for all.

[Daniel2]

Wow. The following link is to an amicus brief just filed in the VA case by the states that currently recognize same-sex marriage. It directly addresses sooooooo many arguments made on this board--and by the state of Utah---about the purpose and regulation of marriage, and how it serves the need of children of both opposite and same sex parents. It is FANTASTIC:

http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/219472606?width=360#fullscreen

[Daniel2]

Daniel, I only wish you could receive the desires of your heart. I just wish the rest of us did not have to go along for the ride. Perversion, philosophies that can go no further than self, are not the panacea for civil society regardless of religion.

One of the things I know is that there is a judgement. I pray that you receive as much mercy as the rest of us. The challenge is for those who knowingly love darkness and reject light; for these poor souls there is no mercy because they do not seek it or want it. They have chosen to bask in the love of evil and their master is their reward.

No need for revelation, no need to scratch those with itching ears. God is their judge and frightful will be the day of their damnation.

If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.

For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount. But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.

Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love.

But the greatest of these is love.

[Daniel2]

I'm confident that same-sex issues will leave a deeper and longer scar on the church than the church ever will on SSM. I will not be at all surprised to see the church cut ties with scouting or to have BYU's academic reputation downgraded as our society comes to fully embrace SSM. Both of those things will sadden me greatly.

Well said--I agree.

[rockpond]

The feeling is that a concerted engagement must be kept up in order to avoid losing the battle within the church.  As I've said before, that is where the battle is now.

 

I don't disagree with you that Church leadership feels this way but unless they figure out how to stop time or stop people from giving birth to homosexual offspring, they will lose the battle within the church just as it is being lost in society at large.

 

As the church's growth rate continues its decline and leadership is forced to look institutional irrelevancy square in the eye - I believe that hearts will be softened.

[Gray]

I believe "the battle within the church" will change, with time.

For a short while, members will struggle with how to accept the weddings of their gay family members, friends, coworkers, bosses, neighbors, etc. They will struggle with concerns that attending such marriages will seem as if they are condoning or promoting homosexuality.

With time, most will start attending marriages of their gay family members, friends, coworkers, bosses, neighbors, etc, even though the church disagrees with it.

Shortly thereafter, members will become increasingly uncomfortable with the church's stance against gay folks and their families.

Increasingly, more will leave the church.

Convert baptisms will decrease.

The greatest losses the church will experience will be among youth.

As with the race-based priesthood ban, social pressure will be exerted on the church, primarily through academics (BYU's) and athletic programs.

Eventually, the BSA will accept gay leaders, as well as scouts, pressure will increase, and Mormons will like face severing ties with the scouts.

Many members who stay will begin petitioning local and world leadership to inquire of the Lord whether he still disapproves of same sex unions.

Once older members of the 12 pass away, younger and emerging apostles will be faced with increased social awareness, decreasing church activity, and worsening retention rates, and will be more open to the idea of inquiring of the Lord about accepting active gays and lesbians into full fellowship.

And by then the Lord will have prepared His church, and the apostles will find themselves at the threshold of revelation.

I predict this will happen more swiftly than any of us would have expected.

 

I think it will happen very much like this, yes. 

[rockpond]

I believe "the battle within the church" will change, with time.

For a short while, members will struggle with how to accept the weddings of their gay family members, friends, coworkers, bosses, neighbors, etc. They will struggle with concerns that attending such marriages will seem as if they are condoning or promoting homosexuality.

With time, most will start attending marriages of their gay family members, friends, coworkers, bosses, neighbors, etc, even though the church disagrees with it.

Shortly thereafter, members will become increasingly uncomfortable with the church's stance against gay folks and their families.

Increasingly, more will leave the church.

Convert baptisms will decrease.

The greatest losses the church will experience will be among youth.

As with the race-based priesthood ban, social pressure will be exerted on the church, primarily through academics (BYU's) and athletic programs.

Eventually, the BSA will accept gay leaders, as well as scouts, pressure will increase, and Mormons will like face severing ties with the scouts.

Many members who stay will begin petitioning local and world leadership to inquire of the Lord whether he still disapproves of same sex unions.

Once older members of the 12 pass away, younger and emerging apostles will be faced with increased social awareness, decreasing church activity, and worsening retention rates, and will be more open to the idea of inquiring of the Lord about accepting active gays and lesbians into full fellowship.

And by then the Lord will have prepared His church, and the apostles will find themselves at the threshold of revelation.

I predict this will happen more swiftly than any of us would have expected.

 

I agree except I would add that it has already clearly begun.  Convert baptisms are declining.  Retention is declining.  Growth rate is declining.

 

If the current trend continues, church membership will be shrinking within the next decade or two.  And that's what I meant by the Church leadership facing "institutional irrelevance" -- Once the church stops showing membership growth and actually gets smaller each year THAT will be the white noise above which nothing else we say will be heard.

[Daniel2]

Informative graphic...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-wCLPq51bXwg/U1aTogTIKXI/AAAAAAAC0ZY/ko8_5iUaxmE/s1600/CircuitCourtMapBlog.png

[JAHS]

I agree except I would add that it has already clearly begun.  Convert baptisms are declining.  Retention is declining.  Growth rate is declining.

 

If the current trend continues, church membership will be shrinking within the next decade or two.  And that's what I meant by the Church leadership facing "institutional irrelevance" -- Once the church stops showing membership growth and actually gets smaller each year THAT will be the white noise above which nothing else we say will be heard.

Some decline in growth and retention is possible but the little of it that is caused by the stance against same sex marriage won't be enough for the church to change because of it. There will be too many other factors going on in the world that will be bigger causes for it. The church will simply see all of it as a sign that we are nearing the end of this dispensation. 

[rockpond]

Some decline in growth and retention is possible but the little of it that is caused by the stance against same sex marriage won't be enough for the church to change because of it. There will be too many other factors going on in the world that will be bigger causes for it. The church will simply see all of it as a sign that we are nearing the end of this dispensation. 

 

Yes, I didn't mean to imply that all of the decline was due to the stance against SSM.  We don't know what portion of that decline is due to SSM & the broader issue of homosexuality.  But I do think that it will be one of the areas addressed if the current growth/retention trends continue.

 

It's certainly possible that the Church leadership will see the declines as signs of the times and choose not to seek out new answers.  In that case it will be interesting to see how we adjust as the church begins combining wards/stakes rather than dividing/creating them.  Again, this is only if we don't reverse the trend.

[Stone holm]

Yes, I didn't mean to imply that all of the decline was due to the stance against SSM.  We don't know what portion of that decline is due to SSM & the broader issue of homosexuality.  But I do think that it will be one of the areas addressed if the current growth/retention trends continue.

 

It's certainly possible that the Church leadership will see the declines as signs of the times and choose not to seek out new answers.  In that case it will be interesting to see how we adjust as the church begins combining wards/stakes rather than dividing/creating them.  Again, this is only if we don't reverse the trend.

Churches can continue to grow without embracing SSM. The real problem is going political all the time.

[Gray]

On the other hand, all churches seem to be either shrinking or growing more slowly (whether progressive or orthodox), so there are probably some larger forces at work beyond the gay marriage issue

[Stone holm]

On the other hand, all churches seem to be either shrinking or growing more slowly (whether progressive or orthodox), so there are probably some larger forces at work beyond the gay marriage issue

 

Christianity and religion in general has received a very bad black eye as a result of letting certain political types manipulate religious hot button issues for their political gain.  Religion is not seen as actually being engaged in the issues which really matter to most people, instead it has obsessed on sexual issues and petty things like school prayer and tried to do battle with scientists over evolution.  Meanwhile, people are being crushed by economic forces.  In the early 20th Century we had the Social Gospel and religion was seen as actively involved trying to help people, mid-century the Black Church was actively engaged in trying to help people of color and the poor.  Today we are what, telling people that their economic status is their own fault, when they should have children, who they can marry, and the humans were riding dinosaurs a few thousand years ago.  The College educated had fled all this in huge numbers.  Children graduate from High School and unless they go to BYU they leave home and the Church while in college.

[california boy]

Christianity and religion in general has received a very bad black eye as a result of letting certain political types manipulate religious hot button issues for their political gain.  Religion is not seen as actually being engaged in the issues which really matter to most people, instead it has obsessed on sexual issues and petty things like school prayer and tried to do battle with scientists over evolution.  Meanwhile, people are being crushed by economic forces.  In the early 20th Century we had the Social Gospel and religion was seen as actively involved trying to help people, mid-century the Black Church was actively engaged in trying to help people of color and the poor.  Today we are what, telling people that their economic status is their own fault, when they should have children, who they can marry, and the humans were riding dinosaurs a few thousand years ago.  The College educated had fled all this in huge numbers.  Children graduate from High School and unless they go to BYU they leave home and the Church while in college.

I very much agree with you.  I honestly think that many young people look at churches as being so unChristlike. They are no longer places for sinners that need strength, they are places of political activism and forcing other to practice their beliefs.  For a lot of people, the goodness of church has gone.  

[The Nehor]

I agree except I would add that it has already clearly begun.  Convert baptisms are declining.  Retention is declining.  Growth rate is declining.

 

If the current trend continues, church membership will be shrinking within the next decade or two.  And that's what I meant by the Church leadership facing "institutional irrelevance" -- Once the church stops showing membership growth and actually gets smaller each year THAT will be the white noise above which nothing else we say will be heard.

 

Better to shrink then to change to become popular.

 

Not the first time this has happened nor will it be the last. We have had almost a full century without serious persecution. It is probably time for a good sifting.

 

Some people seem to think God takes his cues on revelation from opinion polls.

[rockpond]

Better to shrink then to change to become popular.

 

Not the first time this has happened nor will it be the last. We have had almost a full century without serious persecution. It is probably time for a good sifting.

 

Some people seem to think God takes his cues on revelation from opinion polls.

 

Are we under "serious persecution" now?  Any signs of persecution?

 

I was not suggesting that we change to become popular or that God looks at opinion polls.  What I see happening is a lack of growth forcing some epistemic humility upon us which could help open us up to additional revelation where needed.

[The Nehor]

Are we under "serious persecution" now?  Any signs of persecution?

 

No. Of course there is minor persecution but the kind that most dispensations would mock us for making a big deal about.

 

 

I was not suggesting that we change to become popular or that God looks at opinion polls.  What I see happening is a lack of growth forcing some epistemic humility upon us which could help open us up to additional revelation where needed.

 

A lack of growth is eventually to be expected.

[Stone holm]

No. Of course there is minor persecution but the kind that most dispensations would mock us for making a big deal about.

 

 

 

A lack of growth is eventually to be expected.

Yeah, that works so long as they are not stirring the political pot in a misguided attempt to stay popular with people they think it is important to stay popular with, and I am not referring to The Lord.

[The Nehor]

Yeah, that works so long as they are not stirring the political pot in a misguided attempt to stay popular with people they think it is important to stay popular with, and I am not referring to The Lord.

 

Well, I am certainly not worried about the Christian Right not liking us.

[Daniel2]

In today's news, a Texas State District Court judge (as opposed to a federal judge) issued a new ruling that his state's prohibition against offering or recognizing civil marriages (and divorces) of same-sex couples is unconstitutional. This follows a similar ruling on a different case in Texas by a federal judge just this past February:

Judge: Texas can't bar gay marriage — or divorce

http://www.expressnews.com/news/local/article/Judge-Texas-can-t-bar-gay-marriage-or-divorce-5425778.php

SAN ANTONIO — In a move that follows suit with a federal ruling issued in February, a state district judge has deemed Texas' restrictions on same-sex marriage unconstitutional — paving the way for a San Antonio couple's divorce proceedings and subsequent child custody battle to continue.

Judge Barbara Nellermoe, in a ruling released Tuesday, pinpointed three portions of the Texas Family Code as unconstitutional, as well as Section 32 of the Texas Constitution.

Nellermoe wrote that “in a well-reasoned opinion by Judge Orlando Garcia, the federal district court found that a state cannot do what the federal government cannot — that is, it cannot discriminate against same-sex couples.”

The latest ruling comes in response to a same-sex divorce lawsuit that was filed in Bexar County in February by Allison Leona Flood Lesh and Kristi Lyn Lesh, who were married in Washington, D.C., in August 2010.

Kristi Lesh became pregnant through artificial insemination during the marriage and gave birth Feb. 19, 2013. Her attorney argued that because Allison Flood Lesh isn't the biological or adoptive parent, Kristi Lesh should retain sole custody. Allison Flood Lesh is seeking to split custody of the child.

Because Texas doesn't recognize same-sex marriages, there's also no legal avenue available to pursue a divorce.

In a separate case involving couples from Austin and Dallas, attorney James J. “Jody” Scheske argued before the state Supreme Court in November that same-sex divorces should be allowed. The court has yet to issue a ruling.

“Importantly, we've now had three state court judges in Texas all find that they had jurisdiction to hear divorces of same-sex couples who were legally married elsewhere,” Scheske said. “To me, the law is very clear — if you reach residency requirements, if you've been here for 90 days, you have the right to petition for divorce.”

Judith K. Wemmert, who's representing Allison Flood Lesh, said her client hasn't seen her daughter in about eight months and was “on cloud nine” after hearing the ruling.

“She was out today buying things for her daughter's bedroom,” she said. “According to Judge Nellermoe's ruling, she wants us to schedule a hearing in front of her as soon as we can arrange it to move forward with getting the visitation worked out.”

That's likely to happen in a few weeks, she said.

A message left with Barry L. Efron, who represents Kristi Lesh, was not returned Wednesday afternoon. It was unclear whether he planned to appeal the decision to the Fourth Court of Appeals, but several attorneys interviewed Wednesday speculated that an appeal was highly likely.

What is remarkable about the ruling is its finding that failing to “afford the same presumption of parenthood to the wife of a child's birth mother as it does to a husband of the birth mother” is unconstitutional, said lawyer Emily Hecht-McGowan, director of public policy at the Family Equality Council.

The organization advocates for LGBT families throughout the nation.

A child born in a straight marriage or a legal same-sex marriage is considered a child to both parents, which is known as parental presumption, Hecht-McGowan said. But in cases such as this involving a couple in a state that does not recognize same-sex marriage, the child is only considered legally the child of the birth mother.

But in Nellermoe's ruling, she wrote that such a practice violates the Equal Protection Clause.

“By denying their parents the right to marry, Texas has created a suspect classification of children who are denied equal protection of the law under the Fourteenth Amendment,” Nellermoe wrote.

Hecht-McGowan noted that the decision will not have broader implications for the state or same-sex couples unless an appellate court makes a ruling on it.

Amy Stone, an associate professor in sociology and anthropology at Trinity University and author of “Gay Rights at the Ballot Box,” said she was encouraged by the ruling.

“In opposite-sex relationships, the parentage is never questioned, even when a child has been conceived through artificial insemination. So what happens in same-sex relationships is that a child loses a parent, who he loves and considers a parent, and a parent loses a child. It's very traumatic,” she said. “So I find this ruling heartening. It's giving this parent at least some standing, and that's progress.”

mcasady@express-news.net

[Gray]

Better to shrink then to change to become popular.

 

Not the first time this has happened nor will it be the last. We have had almost a full century without serious persecution. It is probably time for a good sifting.

 

Some people seem to think God takes his cues on revelation from opinion polls.

 

Or, maybe our understanding of morality is more emergent than it is revealed (in the traditional sense of specific revelation)

[The Nehor]

Or, maybe our understanding of morality is more emergent than it is revealed (in the traditional sense of specific revelation)

I would suggest that those grabbing their values from social trends are more likely to be guided by an emergent understanding of morality. One of the beautiful things about revelation is that it is hard and tough. You come up against things you never even considered and face things that seem uncongenial or even nonsensical.

[Buckeye]

I would suggest that those grabbing their values from social trends are more likely to be guided by an emergent understanding of morality. One of the beautiful things about revelation is that it is hard and tough. You come up against things you never even considered and face things that seem uncongenial or even nonsensical.

 

Or maybe revelation is tailored to each of us personally.  Those who need an angel with a drawn sword and an apocalyptal environment will find such.  Those who progress through quiet distilling of the dews of heaven will find that avenue.  For myself, I have found much more revelation by opening my ears and mind to the experiences of "the other" - whether they be a different gender, race, heritage, sexual orientation, or any other "image of God" that differs from my own - than I have ever found through the voice of thunder. 

 

That said, I recognize that not only do other members experience revelation differently, but that those differences can be a strength for me.  If we use the "body of Christ" analogy, there are parts of the body that are necessarily hard and tough (e.g., bones).  There are other parts that are flexible and adaptable (e.g., sinews, muscle).  The entire body requires both types to live.  And neither is an absolute.  Bones need some flexibility; they break if too brittle.  Muscles need to be fixed to at least two points; otherwise they lose any usefulness. 

[Gray]

I would suggest that those grabbing their values from social trends are more likely to be guided by an emergent understanding of morality. 

 

 

Part of the beauty of an emergent understanding of morality is the system isn't dependent upon a single link - it's millions of people trying to figure out what's right, what works, trying different things out and coming to conclusions. I'd say this is a form of inspiration.

 

I don't know of a revelation saying that slavery specifically is immoral, but it was something we came to understand as self-evident over many centuries. A million people can be wrong, but they tend to move toward rightness.

 

 

 

One of the beautiful things about revelation is that it is hard and tough. You come up against things you never even considered and face things that seem uncongenial or even nonsensical.

 

That's a bug, not a feature.

[The Nehor]

Part of the beauty of an emergent understanding of morality is the system isn't dependent upon a single link - it's millions of people trying to figure out what's right, what works, trying different things out and coming to conclusions. I'd say this is a form of inspiration.

 

I don't know of a revelation saying that slavery specifically is immoral, but it was something we came to understand as self-evident over many centuries. A million people can be wrong, but they tend to move toward rightness.

I disagree. People in the aggregate vilify their pet vices and trumpet their pet virtues. We are always as a society becoming more right and more wrong. I see no evidence that we are moving to a more right state all the time.

That's a bug, not a feature.

Actually it is how you tell revelation from the ramblings of your brain. I do not trust the revelation of anyone who is always happy with what they are told via revelation. They are either saints beyond by ken on the edge of translation or liars.