Jump to content
Seriously No Politics ×

Ascending The Mountain Of The Lord-Temple, Praise, And Worship In The Ot

ChristKnight

By ChristKnight
in General Discussions

Recommended Posts

ChristKnight Rising Star

ChristKnight

Posted
Posted

So I just bought the book "Ascending the Mountain of the Lord-Temple, Praise, and Worship in the Old Testament", which apparently is  a compilation of the presentations at the recent Sperry Symposium by the same name.  From the description:

 

"The Psalmist asks, “Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord?” This year’s Sperry Symposium discusses ascending into the Lord’s moun- tain within the context of theophany, ancient temple worship, sacred space, sacrifice, offerings, and hymns and songs in the text of the Old Testament and the Book of Mormon. The scriptures contain a rich treasury of information of how ancient Israelites and the people in the Book of Mormon worshipped God and expressed themselves through ritual and devotions as found in the Psalms. These explorations of ancient temple worship help us to better understand and appreciate latter-day temple and worship traditions."

 

Did anyone attend the conference?  Anyone have the book?  Any thoughts?  I haven't really seen any reactions or comments on it so I thought I'd see if I'm the only one interested (ritual is always one of my favorite topics, I'm also curious about the new "By Our Rites of Worship-LDS Views on Ritual in Scripture, History, and Practice")!

 

 

1
Robert F. Smith Grand Master

Robert F. Smith

Posted
Posted

...................................................   

Did anyone attend the conference?  Anyone have the book?  Any thoughts?  I haven't really seen any reactions or comments on it so I thought I'd see if I'm the only one interested (ritual is always one of my favorite topics, I'm also curious about the new "By Our Rites of Worship-LDS Views on Ritual in Scripture, History, and Practice")!

Yes, I attended it and found it well worth my time.  Not all of the papers presented were included in the book (which sold like hotcakes at the symposium).  There were too many papers presented concurrently for me to attend more than a small percentage of them.  However, some stand out as noteworthy.

 

Ann Madsen presented a virtual tour of Solomon's Temple through a very sophisticated video in which she guides the viewer through each part of the temple.  Only 13 minutes, but awesome.  Excellent CGI.

 

Kerry Muhlestein gave a comprehensive power point presentation on Israelite theophanies.

 

Jeffrey Chadwick provided an authoritative and scholarly paper on "The Great Jerusalem Temple Prophecy," which did away with a good deal of folkloric interpretation.

 

John Thompson presented a paper on ancient temple worship from an Egyptian point of view, based on his doctoral dissertation.

2
theplains Grand Master

theplains

Posted
Posted

 

Thanks.

 

There is a reference to Psalm 82 around page 160 onwards.
 
“As we have seen, the idea of a council (assembly) of gods belongs to the festival of
new year and enthronement. It was in such an assembly of ‘sons of gods’ and ‘saints’,
i.e. divine beings, that Yahweh once portioned out amongst the ‘sons of gods’ whom
he made governors over them.”
 
The author is not the first nor the last to make this mistake.  The biblical scripture
refers to these 'gods' as wicked human judges on earth who would get punished by
God, not divine beings in heaven.
 
Regards,
Jim
Robert F. Smith Grand Master

Robert F. Smith

Posted
Posted

livy111us, on 07 Nov 2013 - 3:14 PM, said:snapback.png

You may also find this one interesting:

http://www.legrandlb...ord-reduced.pdf

 

Thanks.

 

There is a reference to Psalm 82 around page 160 onwards.
 
“As we have seen, the idea of a council (assembly) of gods belongs to the festival of
new year and enthronement. It was in such an assembly of ‘sons of gods’ and ‘saints’,
i.e. divine beings, that Yahweh once portioned out amongst the ‘sons of gods’ whom
he made governors over them.”
 
The author is not the first nor the last to make this mistake.  The biblical scripture
refers to these 'gods' as wicked human judges on earth who would get punished by
God, not divine beings in heaven.
 
Regards,
Jim

 

A "mistake"?  Perhaps you'd like to support that claim with a citation or two.

 

The Psalms are poetry and liturgy, and are not intended as narrative theological exposition.  Baker & Ricks describe Ps 82 as an oral performance or dramatic ritual in which the congregation takes part.  They structure it in a meaningful way which coheres with many other such allusions in the Bible to the Divine Council (Gen 1:26, 6:2-4,, Job 1:6-7, 38:7, Pss 29:1, 45:6, 89:6-8; Ps 8:5 = Heb 2:7; many are mistranslated in early English, but the scholarly consensus makes them of one motif).

 

I recommend a look at these citations and the accompanying notes in both the New Jerusalem Bible (a Roman Catholic translation), and The New Oxford Annotated Bible.  You will find the scholars producing those great works represent the same mainstream of interpretation which Baker and Ricks represent.  In other words, the Divine Council motif is recognized widely and prior to any Mormon scholar agreeing with it.

1
volgadon Grand Master

volgadon

Posted
Posted

 

Thanks.

 

There is a reference to Psalm 82 around page 160 onwards.
 
“As we have seen, the idea of a council (assembly) of gods belongs to the festival of
new year and enthronement. It was in such an assembly of ‘sons of gods’ and ‘saints’,
i.e. divine beings, that Yahweh once portioned out amongst the ‘sons of gods’ whom
he made governors over them.”
 
The author is not the first nor the last to make this mistake.  The biblical scripture
refers to these 'gods' as wicked human judges on earth who would get punished by
God, not divine beings in heaven.
 
Regards,
Jim

 

 

No. The biblical scripture refers to them as gods. Plain and simple. You can interpret them as human judges if you like, but that is an external interpretation which you are bringing to the text. Please, show me just one other place in the Hebrew Bible where the same word means human judges.

3
3DOP Grand Master

3DOP

Posted
Posted (edited)

Hey ChristKnight, I am interested in this topic. I hope you don't mind that I contribute a little bit to the rabbit trail below. In any case, I am reading and will give some thoughts (if I get any).

 

Rory

 

______________________________

 

I tried to access a Protestant concordance online; mine is probably in the attic. Anyway, maybe someone with the tools could see what Hebrew word was translated as "judges" in the KJV, and as "gods" in the Douay-Rheims. It seems to me like the Catholic Bible (Douay), allows that "gods" are not always idols, nor are they always divine in origin. In my opinion, human "gods" are so-called in the Scripture because they partake of God's authority, ("The powers that be are ordained..." Rom 13:??). These passages in Exodus seem to indicate human authority (governors, magistrates, judges, etc.)  

 

 

Exodus 21:6
His master shall bring him to the gods, and he shall be set to the door and the posts, and he shall bore his ear through with an awl: and he shall be his servant for ever.

 

Exodus 22:8
If the thief be not known, the master of the house shall be brought to the gods, and shall swear that he did not lay his hand upon his neighbour' s goods,

 

Exodus 22:9
To do any fraud, either in ox, or in ***, or sheep, or raiment, or any thing that may bring damage: the cause of both parties shall come to the gods: and if they give judgment, he shall restore double to his neighbour.

Edited by 3DOP
Robert F. Smith Grand Master

Robert F. Smith

Posted
Posted

Hey ChristKnight, I am interested in this topic. I hope you don't mind that I contribute a little bit to the rabbit trail below. In any case, I am reading and will give some thoughts (if I get any).

 

Rory

 

______________________________

 

I tried to access a Protestant concordance online; mine is probably in the attic. Anyway, maybe someone with the tools could see what Hebrew word was translated as "judges" in the KJV, and as "gods" in the Douay-Rheims. It seems to me like the Catholic Bible (Douay), allows that "gods" are not always idols, nor are they always divine in origin. In my opinion, human "gods" are so-called in the Scripture because they partake of God's authority, ("The powers that be are ordained..." Rom 13:??). These passages in Exodus seem to indicate human authority (governors, magistrates, judges, etc.)  

 

 

Exodus 21:6

His master shall bring him to the gods, and he shall be set to the door and the posts, and he shall bore his ear through with an awl: and he shall be his servant for ever.

 

Exodus 22:8

If the thief be not known, the master of the house shall be brought to the gods, and shall swear that he did not lay his hand upon his neighbour' s goods,

 

Exodus 22:9

To do any fraud, either in ox, or in ***, or sheep, or raiment, or any thing that may bring damage: the cause of both parties shall come to the gods: and if they give judgment, he shall restore double to his neighbour.

Hi Rory,

In all three cases, the accused is simply being brought "before God."  In the first two instances, the Hebrew reads Elohim, the second has a variant reading of Yahweh, and the third is "oath of Yahweh," meaning that a formal oath invoking the name of Yahweh is made.  None refer to human judges, although human judges may be involved in administering the oath and judgement. 

 

I recommend that you purchase the New Jerusalem Bible (Doubleday, 1985).  It has excellent notes, along with Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur.  Just a masterpiece of Roman Catholic scholarship.

Bob

theplains Grand Master

theplains

Posted
Posted

No. The biblical scripture refers to them as gods. Plain and simple. You can interpret them as human judges if you like, but that is an external interpretation which you are bringing to the text. Please, show me just one other place in the Hebrew Bible where the same word means human judges.

 

I'll quote the verses:
 
1. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2. How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3. Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5. They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6. I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8. Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
 
This is my belief based on some interpretations I have read.
 
Verse 2 points to human judges on earth. They are commanded to defend the poor and
the fatherless on earth and to do other righteous acts over the people.  They are referred
to as gods because they are representing authority over the people. But they are
condemned by God to die as ordinary men.  In none of the verses above does the term
'god' represent deities.  Also, Moses was said to be a god to Pharaoh (see link. Ben does
a very good job of explaining it), and Satan is referred to as the god of this earth (2 Cor.
4:4). But neither Moses or Satan were deities.  I found more commentary at Bible.org and
 
Hope this helps.
 
What is your interpretation?  Are the gods in the passage referring to true deities, false
deities, or human judges?  Please explain your answer in the context of the Psalm verses
quoted.
 
Thanks,
Jim
volgadon Grand Master

volgadon

Posted
Posted

 

I'll quote the verses:
 
1. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2. How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3. Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5. They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6. I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8. Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
 
This is my belief based on some interpretations I have read.
 
Verse 2 points to human judges on earth. They are commanded to defend the poor and
the fatherless on earth and to do other righteous acts over the people.  They are referred
to as gods because they are representing authority over the people. But they are
condemned by God to die as ordinary men.  In none of the verses above does the term
'god' represent deities.  Also, Moses was said to be a god to Pharaoh (see link. Ben does
a very good job of explaining it), and Satan is referred to as the god of this earth (2 Cor.
4:4). But neither Moses or Satan were deities.  I found more commentary at Bible.org and
 
Hope this helps.
 
What is your interpretation?  Are the gods in the passage referring to true deities, false
deities, or human judges?  Please explain your answer in the context of the Psalm verses
quoted.
 
Thanks,
Jim

 

 

There you go, it isn't in the biblical scripture. You have yet to produce a single verse clearly showing that human judges are intended

 

Why would God condemn them to die as if ordinairy mortals, if they were indeed ordinairy mortals and as such would have died in any case?

1
Robert F. Smith Grand Master

Robert F. Smith

Posted
Posted

 

I'll quote the verses:
 
1. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2. How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3. Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5. They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6. I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8. Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
 
This is my belief based on some interpretations I have read.
 
Verse 2 points to human judges on earth. They are commanded to defend the poor and
the fatherless on earth and to do other righteous acts over the people.  They are referred
to as gods because they are representing authority over the people. But they are
condemned by God to die as ordinary men.  In none of the verses above does the term
'god' represent deities.  Also, Moses was said to be a god to Pharaoh (see link. Ben does
a very good job of explaining it), and Satan is referred to as the god of this earth (2 Cor.
4:4). But neither Moses or Satan were deities.  I found more commentary at Bible.org and
 
Hope this helps.
 
What is your interpretation?  Are the gods in the passage referring to true deities, false
deities, or human judges?  Please explain your answer in the context of the Psalm verses
quoted.
 
Thanks,
Jim

 

Try quoting it in Hebrew, then provide a reasonable translation.

Then give us a reasonable interpretation based on scholarly sources.

 

If you want to learn biblical Hebrew, I suggest the professionals at http://www.eteacherbiblical.com , or possibly at your local university.

If you can't afford the expense just now, try free lessons at http://www.animatedhebrew.com/ (youtube.com/user/animatedhebrew), or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KCHq7FVJFU&list=PL532641B958A9DAF1&index=1 (30 free lessons), and free webinars at http://eteacherbiblical.com/webinar .

 

Simply depending on assertion isn't enough, Jim.

maklelan Experienced

maklelan

Posted
Posted (edited)

 

Thanks.

 

There is a reference to Psalm 82 around page 160 onwards.
 
“As we have seen, the idea of a council (assembly) of gods belongs to the festival of
new year and enthronement. It was in such an assembly of ‘sons of gods’ and ‘saints’,
i.e. divine beings, that Yahweh once portioned out amongst the ‘sons of gods’ whom
he made governors over them.”
 
The author is not the first nor the last to make this mistake.  The biblical scripture
refers to these 'gods' as wicked human judges on earth who would get punished by
God, not divine beings in heaven.
 
Regards,
Jim

 

 

I disagree with your assessment. Nowhere in the entirety of the Hebrew Bible are these particular gods ever referred to as judges or humans of any kind. The text itself precludes that reading with the contrasting of their nature as gods and their demotion to mortality. The psalm is absolutely nonsensical with the judges reading. Judges were never referred to as gods. The king was referred to as a god on one or two instances, but that's because kings in the ancient Near East were thought to exercise divine agency, making them gods.

Edited by maklelan
1
maklelan Experienced

maklelan

Posted
Posted

Try quoting it in Hebrew, then provide a reasonable translation.

Then give us a reasonable interpretation based on scholarly sources.

 

If you want to learn biblical Hebrew, I suggest the professionals at http://www.eteacherbiblical.com , or possibly at your local university.

If you can't afford the expense just now, try free lessons at http://www.animatedhebrew.com/ (youtube.com/user/animatedhebrew), or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KCHq7FVJFU&list=PL532641B958A9DAF1&index=1 (30 free lessons), and free webinars at http://eteacherbiblical.com/webinar .

 

Simply depending on assertion isn't enough, Jim.

 

For learning Biblical Hebrew, I would recommend Holmstedt and Cook's introductory grammar, available for free here.

maklelan Experienced

maklelan

Posted
Posted

I'll quote the verses:
 
1. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty;
 
"Mighty" is incorrect. The phrase here is עדת־אל, literally, "Council of El." This is cognate to the Ugaritic "council of 'Ilu," the council presided over by the Ugaritic high god 'Ilu. It may have become a frozen formula, which would have taken on a more generic sense in later years, giving us "divine council." It is unquestionably not "congregation of the mighty." 
 
he judgeth among the gods.
2. How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3. Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5. They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6. I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8. Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
 
This is my belief based on some interpretations I have read.
 
Verse 2 points to human judges on earth.
 
There is absolutely nothing in the psalm or the broader context to recommend this interpretation. The psalm explicitly states that YHWH judges among the gods in the council of El. 
 
They are commanded to defend the poor and
the fatherless on earth and to do other righteous acts over the people.  They are referred
to as gods because they are representing authority over the people.
 
There is no indication anywhere in the history of Classical Hebrew that the term "gods" was ever applied to humans simply in virtue of "representing authority over the people." 
 
But they are
condemned by God to die as ordinary men.
 
Which raises the question of how their deaths are anything worthy of note if they are humans to begin with. The אכן . . . אמרתי construction indicates an expectation has been violated. Since mortality is not something that is endowed with this notion of an honorary title of "deity," why is the author insisting the divine nature of the accused conflicts with the notion of mortality? The answer can only be that they were immortal prior to the passing of this judgment. 
 
In none of the verses above does the term
'god' represent deities.
 
Just because you say so? There's a difference between making an argument and making an assertion. 
 
Also, Moses was said to be a god to Pharaoh
 
Because he rained down fire on Pharaoh, turned his river to blood, and killed all the firstborn of his nation. I would say Moses is certainly exercising divine agency, making him a god. There is no instance that I have ever found in any ancient Near Eastern text of a judge exercising such authority or carrying the title "god."  
 
(see link. Ben does
a very good job of explaining it),
 
Matthew Henry gets close to the proper understanding, but he prioritizes ontology when in the ancient Near East the priority was placed on functionality. To act with the power of a god was to be a god. Didn't matter how transiently or in what subordinate station. I'm not going to take the time to go into great detail, but the following christological discussion is rather rudimentary and naive. It doesn't seem to me that the person who wrote it knows much about Greek or Hebrew. 
 
and Satan is referred to as the god of this earth (2 Cor.
4:4). But neither Moses or Satan were deities.
 
"God" (Germanic) and "deity" (Latin) are synonyms. You're saying Moses is "six" but not "half a dozen." Moses can't be a god but not a deity. 
 
I found more commentary at Bible.org and
 
Hope this helps.
 
What is your interpretation?
 
I've presented on this multiple times at SBL over the years. You can find some discussions here, here, here, and here, for starters. The last one addresses Psalm 82 in the LDS tradition, as well. For a much more in depth look at the Hebrew term elohim, see here.
 
Are the gods in the passage referring to true deities, false
deities, or human judges?
 
The author of the psalms understands the deities to be the gods of the nations, although the purpose of the psalm is to de-deify them and exalt YHWH to rulership over all the nations of the earth, rather than just over Israel, which was his entire purview prior to the time period in which the psalm appeared.
 
Please explain your answer in the context of the Psalm verses
quoted.
 
You will find more than enough context in the papers to which I linked above. 

 

 

4
ChristKnight Rising Star

ChristKnight

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Yes, I attended it and found it well worth my time.  Not all of the papers presented were included in the book (which sold like hotcakes at the symposium).  There were too many papers presented concurrently for me to attend more than a small percentage of them.  However, some stand out as noteworthy.

 

Ann Madsen presented a virtual tour of Solomon's Temple through a very sophisticated video in which she guides the viewer through each part of the temple.  Only 13 minutes, but awesome.  Excellent CGI.

 

Kerry Muhlestein gave a comprehensive power point presentation on Israelite theophanies.

 

Jeffrey Chadwick provided an authoritative and scholarly paper on "The Great Jerusalem Temple Prophecy," which did away with a good deal of folkloric interpretation.

 

John Thompson presented a paper on ancient temple worship from an Egyptian point of view, based on his doctoral dissertation.

 

Thanks!  I can't wait for this book to arrive (it's been delayed to this Friday).  Looking at the list of presentations, I'm very curious about the following, and hope they're included:

 

-as you mentioned, John S. Thompson – The Context of Temple Worship: Early Ancient Egyptian Rites

-Alonzo L. Gaskill – Clothed in Holy Garments: Apparel of the Temple Officiants of Ancient Israel

-Richard O. Cowan – What Old Testament Temples can Teach Us About Our Own Temple Activity

-Jared M. Halverson – Rejection and Rehabilitation of Worship in the Old Testament

theplains Grand Master

theplains

Posted
Posted

I disagree with your assessment. Nowhere in the entirety of the Hebrew Bible are these particular gods ever referred to as judges or humans of any kind. The text itself precludes that reading with the contrasting of their nature as gods and their demotion to mortality.

 

Are you suggesting that the Jews believed, as did the Greeks, that deities could be demoted back to

mortals if they had sinned in heaven?

 

In the scriptures, how was Moses considered a god to Pharaoh and Satan a god of this world when

neither of them was a deity?

 

Thanks,

Jim

maklelan Experienced

maklelan

Posted
Posted

Are you suggesting that the Jews believed, as did the Greeks, that deities could be demoted back to

mortals if they had sinned in heaven?

 

In the scriptures, how was Moses considered a god to Pharaoh and Satan a god of this world when

neither of them was a deity?

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

Whether or not that belief was widespread is hard to say, but it is unquestionably what is going on in Psalm 82. 

 

Moses was considered a deity, as is established quite clearly by his shining face when he descended from Sinai (a glorious face was a defining feature of deity in the ancient Near East). And as I said before, "deity" and "god" are synonyms. One cannot, by definition, be a god and not a deity. 

1
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Go to topic listing

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...